Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jal Dorak 07-23-05, 11:16 AM	I've been involved in some recent discussions about charisma and its function in relation to the other ability scores. I hit upon something this morning. Every score offers something tangible regardless of character class; STR = Attack+Damage, DEX = AC+Reflex, INT = Skill points. In addition, some casters benefit from their primary ability score. So, my thoughts were how to make charisma more useful in situations other than diplomacy. Going with this, why not improve other aspects of a characters fundamentals that aren't currently alterable (for instance, you can improve your BAB and saves normally). High charisma could grant: 1) Improved experience gain. This is my weakest idea, as experience ties more strongly into WIS or INT. Probably not the greatest game. 2) Better lifespan and/or aging penalties. Since CHA represents force of personality, this could mean that ego influences your will to live and improve yourself. 3) I think this is my best idea: Bonus feats. This is the only core rule that is not influenced by ability modifiers. My thoughts are that a character would recieve (or lose) one bonus feat for every point of modifier. You would get these feats as follows: 1 at level 2 and every 3 levels thereafter (5, 8, 11, etc). Of course, you would have to meet the prerequisites for any feat you would choose. This is all designed to try to balance things. If for some reason your score is lowered or raised, you gain/lose feats accordingly - perhaps randomly selected by the DM. Overall, this represents how a characters ego and awareness drives them to accomplish more than the average person, which is what feats are for anyway. Example: A ranger with a charisma of 16 would get 3 bonus feats. At level 2, 5, and 8. He can not, for example, take a feat that requires a rage class feature. Nor can he take three bonus feats all at first level. This spreads the bonus out over a characters career, just like any other stat. Thought?
BelZoradon 07-23-05, 11:23 AM	NO BAD!!! SORC WITH FEATS OF A GOD!!! BAD!!!!! WRONG!!! ~hides~ i do kinda like the idea that it would change life span tho... Cha + Wis(will save) = desire to live hmmm maybe ill tinker with that
Salla 07-23-05, 12:10 PM	You could use the alternate rule in the DMG where you use your Charisma modifier instead of Wisdom against certain types of Will saves (compulsions, I believe). Having it affect lifespan is meaningless on the whole, because few campaigns last long enough for it to matter and there are few ways of getting artificially aged.
jukar 07-23-05, 12:46 PM	Oh dear, a fighter with high CHA would end up dripping with feats at a moderately low level. Sorcerers would have a lot of feats also. And what do you do with retroactive increases? For example, a character starts with 10 CHA, but plunks ability increases into them, putting it up to 14.... do they get to go back and apply those feats on level 2, 5, etc, or do they just miss out altogether? With the onset of more and more spontaneous casters, CHA becomes more and more important. I also use CHA to determine how many action points (my variant on action points from UA) a character gains. (Level/2 + Cha Mod) High CHA characters have more action points, or are just luckier overall.
MadBlue 07-24-05, 12:15 AM	I posted a Bonus Feats for high Charisma thing a few months ago. Basically for each +1 bonus you get a bonus Feat. Not all at once though, it was more like this: Cha 12-13 lvl 1 Cha 14-15 lvl 1, 4 Cha 16-17 lvl 1, 4, 8 Cha 18-19 lvl 1, 4, 8, 12 Cha 20-21 lvl 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 Bonus Feats had to be Feats that represented innate talents. For example, something like Alertness or Extra Turning would be OK, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Cleave would be right out. for each -1 penalty, the character would get one Flaw at 1st level. These would be "bought off" if the character improved their Charisma. Only permanent changes affected Feats and Flaws. Wearing a Charisma-boosting item wouldn't do it (in the same way that wearing an Intelligence-boosting item doesn't grant more skill points). Another idea I had (which is what I'll probably go with) is using a kind of Action Points variant. Basically, every character gets 3 AP +/- Charisma modifier. These can be spent to boost a d20 roll, to get an extra use of a daily use ability (for 2 points) or to stabilize. They don't increase as the character gains levels, but a higher level character can roll more dice and pick the best roll (as normal with AP). Basically, AP represents the character's conviction and ability to draw upon their personal resources when they absolutely need to succeed (as opposed to luck or anything like that). Spent AP can be regained by roleplaying the character's alignment in a situation where it could be detrimental to the character. For example, a LN character could regain an AP if he told the city guard the truth about the party's involvement in the combat that just happened and risk being taken in for questioning, rather than keeping quiet to avoid further scrutiny by the guards. MadBlue
marmar63 08-03-05, 12:00 AM	yet another way to make the ugly people in the world feel inadequate :D
Mandarbgrim 08-03-05, 03:23 AM	My thought was a variation of the Action point alteration. Instead of bonus action points it provides a bonus on action point rolls. Such as a 16 CHA gives a character 1d6 +3 to a D20 roll instead of just 1d6.
Paul Hopebringer 08-03-05, 08:03 AM	Oh Oh! I got it I think! How about changing the action point progression/system/thingy so that it equals your charisma modifier per day. *I* wouldn't do that, but maybe somebody else would like that idea...it would make charima less of a dump stat, and more of a "hmm... should I raise charisma or not... hmm..." And as for ugly people feeling inadiquate, you can be as pretty as you want to be, and your charima doesn't have to go up or down a bit. It is a mental stat, not a physical stat... hence, it actually has nothing to do with being "physical"ly attractive. Think of charisma as a stat that one of our presidents would have a lot of...(no really, that would be *the* stat for them...) How many "pretty" presidents can you think of? Well, there you have it :D I think the idea would work (watch as I argue with myself :rolleyes: ) if you think about heroes... I mean swashbukling action heroes have charisma just pouring out of them, and they do all kinds of great stuff, and even the non-swashbukle types tend to have both a high charisma and "action points" to spare. Come to think of it, how many heroes can you think of that *don't* have a high charisma? I can think of weak heroes, foolish heroes, ugly heroes, clumsy heroes, stupid heroes, and delicate heroes, but *all* of them have a charisma score that is significant. It is like *the* stat, man. Why not make the game more like the mythology it is based on, and have something useful come from charima? It shouldn't be "luck", like VORPALLING!!! a... kobald.... It should be *luck* like cramming the BBEG's nose into his skull! Action points do that. And sorcerers getting action points is fine... most people agree that sorcerers need a little boost... and this gives them an edge in combat situations without actually making them any "stronger".
Mystyc 08-03-05, 12:37 PM	It's true that Charisma is the "least effective" stat in the game at the moment, but it actually does do a lot. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers and Sorcerers all explicitly call for Charisma for one or more of their class abilities, and it's the default ability for almost all racial spell-like abilities. As such, I'd be cautious about just dumping feats on Charismatic people. However, I do like the idea of getting "innate" feats, such as the +2/+2 skill feats or +2 save feats. Perhaps "charisma feat" could be a designation just like "fighter feat."
weasel fierce 08-03-05, 01:47 PM	Charisma shouldnt have a big impact on game mechanics, because the mechanics deal for the most part with killing people. Its something the DM should take into account, when playing encounters and when the characters interact with others.
DarknessEternal 08-03-05, 01:48 PM	Charisma may not have a use for everyone, but it is more useful to more classes than Strength is.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-05, 03:50 PM	1. May players play thier Cha. It will never be dumped again once they have to be shy, loutish or unsure of themselves. 2. Cha should modifiy will saves instead of Wis. Cha is force of personality - i.e. WILL. Wis is perception.
Mystyc 08-03-05, 04:41 PM	2. Cha should modifiy will saves instead of Wis. Cha is force of personality - i.e. WILL. Wis is perception. There's a feat that does that in, I believe, Complete Adventurer. It's called Force of Personality. That said, the PHB description of Wisdom begins, "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." Even if you did switch them unilaterally, you'd then have the problem of "why Wisdom?"
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-05, 04:58 PM	Even if you did switch them unilaterally, you'd then have the problem of "why Wisdom?" Wisdom is the primary stat in the most used skills; Spot, Listen and Sense Motive which are the most important skills in the game yet for some mind numbing reason, only a few classes have them as class skills. As the stat for perception and intuition, it should also be the starting Language stat.
Mystyc 08-03-05, 05:05 PM	As the stat for perception and intuition, it should also be the starting Language stat. Perception and intuition have nothing to do with learning a language. It's about memorizing thousands of vocabulary words and syntax rules. Intelligence is clearly the correct language stat.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-05, 05:10 PM	Perception and intuition have nothing to do with learning a language. It's about memorizing thousands of vocabulary words and syntax rules. Intelligence is clearly the correct language stat. Learning a language later in life? Yes. This is represented by spending Int dependant skill points. But any toddler can learn any language they are raised in or around as a matter of course, even the ones that cram things in thier nose and get toys banned.
Mystyc 08-03-05, 05:23 PM	But any toddler can learn any language they are raised in or around as a matter of course, even the ones that cram things in thier nose and get toys banned. Those are called "automatic languages." Bonus languages are those you've learned through additional study.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-05, 05:34 PM	Those are called "automatic languages." Bonus languages are those you've learned through additional study. It doesn't actually state that. It is just as plausable that you can simply pick up these languages in your travels.
MadBlue 08-03-05, 10:56 PM	1. May players play thier Cha. It will never be dumped again once they have to be shy, loutish or unsure of themselves.Well, "reserved, gruff, rude, fawning or simply nondescript". It's not difficult to have a fun time RPing any of those traits. They shouldn't be the one going up to talk to the king or negotiate with merchants (unless they have Ranks in the Diplomacy skill, of course), or otherwise RPing their character as "attractive, striking, personable, and confident". They shouldn't expect to be the center of attention unless they're attracting attention of the unwanted kind - well, with their personality, anyway. Someone comes back into town after killing the dragon that's been terrorizing the place, they're going to be popular with the populace regardless of what their Charisma is. ;) 2. Cha should modifiy will saves instead of Wis. Cha is force of personality - i.e. WILL. Wis is perception.Charisma and Wisdom are two sides of the coin as far as Will goes. Wisdom is will to resist and endure, Charisma is will to exert control. But I could see Charisma's role in Will Saves via "Force of Personality", as certain high-Charisma types could have such a highly developed sense of self and self-control that they are more difficult to manipulate magically. That is, I agree with you - this is more of a response to Mystyc, to explain how Charisma fits in with Will. MadBlue
Bhod 08-04-05, 08:35 AM	What about having cha affect in game prices for items and such? This is the off the top of my head... Cha Score 1 +50% on goods and services prices 2-3 +40% 4-5 +30% 6-7 +20% 8-9 +10% 10-11 Base cost 12-13 -10% 14-15 -20% 16-17 -30% 18-19 -40% 20-21 _50% and so on...
Mystyc 08-04-05, 08:57 AM	It is just as plausable that you can simply pick up these languages in your travels. Oh, you absolutely can pick them up in your travels... if you're smart enough. Someone with a high Wisdom might figure out how to communicate via improvised sign language or pointing at things, but unless they can memorize the words and how to form sentences, they won't learn the actual language.
Fargren 08-04-05, 02:01 PM	What about having cha affect in game prices for items and such? This is the off the top of my head... Cha Score 1 +50% on goods and services prices 2-3 +40% 4-5 +30% 6-7 +20% 8-9 +10% 10-11 Base cost 12-13 -10% 14-15 -20% 16-17 -30% 18-19 -40% 20-21 _50% and so on... So a 30 CHA wopuld gtrant you infinite free items??Even if you would circunsrive this abilitie to non magicall item(without any good reason I can think of except balance), a character could start selling nonmagical items he got as gifts for being good with words, and use the money to get magic stuff. Maybe this should be an increment in the price of items you sale, instead of a discount for you. Anyway, that wouldn't keep CHA from being a dump stat, since all you need is to make the sorcerer sell all of the party's stuff(maybe he would get a small profit, like %10 of what he made the party gain.
MadBlue 08-05-05, 11:30 PM	What about having cha affect in game prices for items and such?Aside from the issue Fargren mentioned, there's a rule for using Diplomacy to haggle in Complete Adventurer (a successful Diplomacy check lowers the price by 10%), so charismatic characters already do have an edge, there. :) MadBlue
Vexsom 08-06-05, 07:09 AM	How about this... you read more into things before you second guess the system? I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact of the matter is, there are a number of diffrent things charisma affects. 1) Intimidation isnt diplomacy, it's useable in combat to shake enemies which is a great assistance in the beginning of the game. 2) Use magical Device is perfect for weilding an enemy weapon against a foe after disarming them, or even in assisting your escape when the magic door you couldnt get through earlier by force is your only route out. 3) Bluff assists in feinting an opponent to gain a better means to damaging them. and to address your previous ideas. 1) Obviously experience decides experience. Just because you have a higher force of personality doesn't mean you learned more by pricking your finger than the idiot who was dropped in a pit of ravenous monkeys. 2) I dont care how much you want to live, just because you're a little more likeable or have a higher persona in the eyes of others, wont stop altimers when age comes knocking. 3) There's a reason feats aren't decided by an ability modifier. The reason is that feats are special and supposed to be picked with care and consideration to your purpose. If the game handed them out like candy (and yes, basing it on an ability score = handing out candy) then guess what... an epic sorcerer would have more feats than an epic fighter would have AC. As well, keeping track of a gods feats would be IMPOSSIBLE. I like your idea about trying to find new ways to use ability scores, but the three ways you've come up with are actually very extreme measures.
MadBlue 08-06-05, 02:54 PM	How about this... you read more into things before you second guess the system? I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact of the matter is, there are a number of diffrent things charisma affects. 1) Intimidation isnt diplomacy, it's useable in combat to shake enemies which is a great assistance in the beginning of the game.Class skill for Rogues, Barbarians and Fighters. 2) Use magical Device is perfect for weilding an enemy weapon against a foe after disarming them, or even in assisting your escape when the magic door you couldnt get through earlier by force is your only route out.Class skill for Rogues and Bards. 3) Bluff assists in feinting an opponent to gain a better means to damaging them.Class skill for Rogues, Bards and Sorcerers. Which essentially relegates those effects of Charisma to character class and skill point expenditure. and to address your previous ideas. 3) There's a reason feats aren't decided by an ability modifier. The reason is that feats are special and supposed to be picked with care and consideration to your purpose. If the game handed them out like candy (and yes, basing it on an ability score = handing out candy) then guess what... an epic sorcerer would have more feats than an epic fighter would have AC. As well, keeping track of a gods feats would be IMPOSSIBLE.I disagree that basing them on a stat would be "handing them out like candy". I came up with a system of bonus Feats based on Charisma - that I probably will wind up not using - but I don't think it's a bad idea. I like your idea about trying to find new ways to use ability scores, but the three ways you've come up with are actually very extreme measures.So tell us your ideas, rather than reacting to the first post on the subject, as there are other ideas presented in this thread. MadBlue
Melpomene 08-07-05, 05:03 PM	Second the unilateral switch of CHA and WIS for will saves. ...WIS should affect sanity, though... if you use sanity rules.
Ut-Napishtim 08-07-05, 11:08 PM	Well, it seems that the two classes who would benefit the most from this are the Sorcerer and Rogue. Most people seem to feel the Sorcerer could use a little boost, and a Rogue that dumped an 18 into their Cha would be sacrificing it from Dex and Int which are also important to the character (unless you run one of those games where folks have multiple 18's). It could get out of hand if folks select LA races with beefy Cha bonuses though. Based on the +2/+2's though a feat is worth about 4 Skill Points, maybe a little more. So I'd imagine 4 or 5 bonus feats distributed over 20 levels (like MadBlue had) wouldn't be terribly worse than the 80-100 skill points a high Int character gets over them. I don't really feel the need to implement this in my game, but I don't violently oppose it either. As a player I wouldn't have a problem with it, and would be interested in seeing how it works out in practice. As long as the feats are spread over the levels like MadBlue did I don't think it'd get out of hand, and might even give the Sorcerer that little boost he needs to be competetive. Replacing Wis with Cha for Will saves on the other hand seems arbitrary and unneccesary to me.
Vexsom 08-08-05, 01:58 AM	This is in response to Madblues comments (because I'm not going threw and picking out parts of a post that quotes my own words). Sorcerers are based in charisma and they have no ability to gain feats other than naturally leveling. Fighters dont gain spells, but they gain many bonus feats. If you dont give fighters some other special feature, then their is no regulation between classes. The reason I'm not presenting an idea for using a stat for more than it already does, is because I feel that the stats currently handle all aspects that need to be handled. 4 extra feats at first level just because you have force of personality? Your persona doesnt define your practice of skills and abilities which is what feats are. Wisdom would fit more with FEATS (defined in the players book as an extension of your abilities, not your inner energy).
Chaotic Nothing 08-08-05, 02:06 AM	I think charisma should be changed to sexiness as an ability, and Diplomacy and bluff moved to Int and Wis. So youd have Str Dex Int Wis Con Sex Im serious.
MadBlue 08-08-05, 10:05 AM	This is in response to Madblues comments (because I'm not going threw and picking out parts of a post that quotes my own words).You don't have to. The software does that automatically. Besides, when people don't include the comments of the poster they're responding to, they often wind up putting words into that poster's mouth. The reason I'm not presenting an idea for using a stat for more than it already does, is because I feel that the stats currently handle all aspects that need to be handled. 4 extra feats at first level just because you have force of personality?I could quote myself on what I said, but it's on this same page. Just scroll up. Your persona doesnt define your practice of skills and abilities which is what feats are. Wisdom would fit more with FEATS (defined in the players book as an extension of your abilities, not your inner energy).Actually, it's defined as "a special feature that either gives your character a new capability or improves one that he or she already has". "Inner energy" doesn't have anything to do with the idea behind bonus Feats, it's that Feats I'm suggesting should be available as Charisma bonus Feats are ones that could be innate, and people who are charismatic should be able to evoke more inborn talents and abilities than people who are less charismatic. Charisma is a measure of confidence, and sense of self and purpose, as well as social aspects. That's the philosophy behind the "Force of Personality" Feat. "Persona" isn't what's allowing you to emulate a class feature or racial ability when making a Use Magic Device check. MadBlue
Lankin the Mad Mage 08-16-05, 06:55 PM	4 extra feats at first level just because you have force of personality? Did you read the posts and discussions? Nobody said anything about four feats at first level. They said four feats in 20 levels! As in getting a bonus feat every three or four levels after second level, if you had a high enough charisma. Now, since the wizard gets this for free no matter his high int, I kinda like this idea. Especially if the feats are restricted, as in only skill feats or feats that bump up saves and initiative. I've been looking for ways to make Charisma a part of the game system for quite some time now, and this thread certainly has some good ideas. Especially the ones about AP.
GoofsterStud 08-17-05, 09:33 PM	I think that CHA/Wis which ever is higher should equal Will Saves!
Gilean 08-19-05, 12:20 PM	I think that CHA/Wis which ever is higher should equal Will Saves!One (pretty nice) variant I heard is changing charisma to influence will saves and have wisdom determine initiative.
Tuneless Bard 08-20-05, 01:07 AM	So...The Favored Soul / Sorcerer / Mystic Thurge in a campaign of mine will become even more powerful because of his uber high charisma? The +2 racial, +3 due to levels, and +6 cloak gives him a Charisma of 29... thats 18 extra spells per day and +9 to all of the DCs for every spell he casts... and of course he's taken force of personality so that +9 applies to his will save... he's allready the most powerful character due to his neverending spells and super high DCs...so lets give him some extra stuff too? what if he was a paladin? thats +9 to all his saves and lay on hands for 108! the only ones who really could care less about charisma is rangers, fighters, and barbarians... and what does strength do? +9 attack, +9 damage... not very versitile... not very functional in a low combat campaign... and we all know that strength bonuses get leveled out by other factors by the time you get later in the game... BAB goes up constantly...while strength rarely goes up...so strength becomes less and less important...especially when you mix in... magic weapons, spells, touch effects, arrows, damage reduction... why dont we give strength some bonus feats instead...
MadBlue 08-20-05, 05:40 AM	the only ones who really could care less about charisma is rangers, fighters, and barbarians......and Monks, most Rogues, and Wizards. Although beneficial for skills and Wild Empathy, Druids don't really need a high Charisma either. and what does strength do? +9 attack, +9 damage...+9 climb, +9 jump, +9 swim, +9 strength checks, a light load of 400 lbs. Unless you're getting someone else to lug around all your gear, Strength is useful for all characters. not very versitile... not very functional in a low combat campaign...Of course the rest of us are playing D&D. Besides, low combat doesn't mean "few rolls that call on physical abilities". You could be doing a lot of climbing, jumping, forcing open doors, carrying things, etc., without getting into a lot of combat. In any case, in a "social intensive" campaign, if you wanted to MIN-MAX and didn't need Charisma for class abilities, it would be wiser to pump Intelligence rather than Charisma: more skill points to pump into Charisma-based skills, more synergy bonuses to Charisma-based skills, and more languages to socialize in. and we all know that strength bonuses get leveled out by other factors by the time you get later in the game... BAB goes up constantly...while strength rarely goes up...so strength becomes less and less important...especially when you mix in... magic weapons, spells, touch effects, arrows, damage reduction...Unless you have class abilities based on one, levels and magic tend to make any ability less important. Besides, Strength and Dexterity are treated by the designers as more valuable than other abilities when it comes to balancing the stats, and people don't tend to feel that they need boosting. MadBlue
Tuneless Bard 08-21-05, 01:00 AM	Ah, MadBlue so we meet again... in an effort to avoid redundancy in multiple threads I will leave this thread alone...
Merryadocc 08-22-05, 03:07 PM	I once made a character that made a few other players in the group think charisma was too powerful/abusable. Here's my build. Our DM allowed a generous points buy system, so I started with 18 CHA. He allowed +4 LA races so i took Half Celestial/Human giving me +6 CHA for 24 CHA. As I leveled I put all my stat points into CHA. My first two levels were monk, followed by two levels of paladin, then six sorcerer levels, till I qualified for Eldritch Knight which I took till 20. I was a Vow of Poverty from level one and when I started getting an enhancement bonus to stats I put my biggest bonus to CHA. I also took the feat Ascetic Mage to allow me to use my CHA bonus instead of my WIS bonus to ac from my monk levels. If you sit down and put this character on paper you will have at 20HD a total of 37 CHA. That's +13 to saves and armor class along with that 37 CHA helping out my sorcerer spell casting, mix the Vow of Poverty stuff in and I kicked ass. I also took practiced spell caster sorcerer. After the group I was in had to adventure with this character they never again said anything about CHA being a weak stat. Hope this adds a new angle to the whole CHA arguement. Merry gaming all :)
Fargren 08-22-05, 04:31 PM	I once made a character that made a few other players in the group think charisma was too powerful/abusable. Here's my build. Our DM allowed a generous points buy system, so I started with 18 CHA. He allowed +4 LA races so i took Half Celestial/Human giving me +6 CHA for 24 CHA. As I leveled I put all my stat points into CHA. My first two levels were monk, followed by two levels of paladin, then six sorcerer levels, till I qualified for Eldritch Knight which I took till 20. I was a Vow of Poverty from level one and when I started getting an enhancement bonus to stats I put my biggest bonus to CHA. I also took the feat Ascetic Mage to allow me to use my CHA bonus instead of my WIS bonus to ac from my monk levels. If you sit down and put this character on paper you will have at 20HD a total of 37 CHA. That's +13 to saves and armor class along with that 37 CHA helping out my sorcerer spell casting, mix the Vow of Poverty stuff in and I kicked ass. I also took practiced spell caster sorcerer. After the group I was in had to adventure with this character they never again said anything about CHA being a weak stat. Hope this adds a new angle to the whole CHA arguement. Merry gaming all :) You are missing the point. The problem is charisma doesn't give anything per se. You need feats or class abilities to make it usefull. No other stat has that power, as each adds something to your character, or takes something usefull, if not important, by having it low. Having a 3 CHA will probably not hurt a character very muchif his class is not edpendant on CHA(I'm missin RP purposes intentionally), but having a 3 WIS, INT, DEX, CON or STR will hurt almost ANY character.
Xeviat-DM 08-22-05, 08:33 PM	In my games, I have altered the way spellcasting works to make charisma more valued. First off, I use a mana point system, and all classes use Wisdom to determine their bonus mana points. All classes also use Charisma to determine their spell save DCs. Intelligence is tied to the Knowledge and Spellcraft skills, and it is used when spells call for ability checks, so it's still important. Each class uses a separate score to determine their max spell level. Additionally, I make sure to play my NPCs in responce to player Charismas. In the game I'm currently preparing, here are the charismas for 7 of the 8 characters: Mounted Fighter: 16; Finesse Fighter: 15; Thuggish Fighter/Rogue: 7; Bard: 16; Wizard: 16; Telepath: 18; Cleric: 16. Even the Mounted Fighter and the Finesse Fighter took high charismas, and they have nothing they need it for (though the finesse fighter may take Vile Martial Strike eventually); the Fighter/Rogue only went for the low charisma because his character is a loner and a jerk. An NPC will react to a low charisma character often by ignoring them, or taking what they say to be worse than the character intends. High charisma characters are known as the heros, low charisma characters are often assumed to be hirelings, or at the best called "mercenary" or "sell sword" rather than "hero". That, and once you've played in a game with Psions, you'll rarely dump your charisma that much. Ego Whip is a second level spell, deals 1d4 Charisma damage and dazes for 1 round, save for half and no daze. And it can deal more charisma damage as the caster gets more powerful. So the caster looks for the opponent who stands out the least and ego whips them.
Chimaera2000 08-23-05, 12:33 AM	I second the variant of Charisma to will saves and Wisdom for initiative, if you're looking to make Charisma more useful.
JTalbain 09-19-05, 04:44 AM	I saw one suggestion about a year ago on these boards that I liked. Since Charisma represents your forcefullness in interactions, and since Charismatic individuals always seem to be on top of things and react quickly in conversation, he suggested that Charisma be used instead of Dexterity for Initiative rolls. Dexterity is used for so many things anyway it is still a worthwhile stat even without Initiative rolls added in, and it gives Charisma a worthwhile boost since, as has already been pointed out, D&D is by nature fairly combat intensive.
Korimyr the Rat 09-19-05, 12:10 PM	Action points. Alternity based Last Resort Points off of Personality-- and if you look at the Charisma-based classes, don't they all feature some form of "dramatic overacheivment"? Aren't most of them also the classes most people seem to think are underbalanced? (Except, of course, our dear Favored Soul, and possibly the Warmage.) So, if you're using Action Points, allow characters to add their Charisma modifier to the number of Action Points they get every level.
Hierarch Leviticus 09-19-05, 12:25 PM	A simple and generic solution. Add in reputation from d20 modern or elsewhere. Have successful recognition through reputation create a change based on Alignment - for every place where your alignment matches the recognizer, their attitude instantly improves by one step, up to friendly at best. For each place where is is opposed, reaction drops one step, with no bottom limit. Then add in a very basic, no-feat-required mechanism by which a charismatic character can falsify their "reputed alignment". Say, by one 'step' for each nine full points of charisma score, or some similar boojum.
Paul Hopebringer 09-19-05, 04:04 PM	Wouldn't having the alignment have more of an effect on evil than good? Generally the enemy would get the benifit from this bonus, unless the PC's are evil. Also, the steps should be affected more slowly (and have a cap), otherwise your most hated enemies will automatically fall in love with you, and the end of the game is achieved. PC's who like RPing more than beating the DM are likely to be disapionted once they reach game breakingly high charisma.
Hierarch Leviticus 09-19-05, 05:34 PM	Wouldn't having the alignment have more of an effect on evil than good? Generally the enemy would get the benifit from this bonus, unless the PC's are evil. Also, the steps should be affected more slowly (and have a cap), otherwise your most hated enemies will automatically fall in love with you, and the end of the game is achieved. PC's who like RPing more than beating the DM are likely to be disapionted once they reach game breakingly high charisma. There are only two axes to "match" on (G-N-E and L-N-C), so that's a two-step limit right there. Characters with game-breaking charisma would always get both steps of improvement, in theory.
Duration_10_Rounds 09-20-05, 08:49 AM	Cha does feature into game mechanic ... in fact its the corner stone of the 4 most powerful skills in the game! Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate.. These 3 skills are tantamount to mindcontrol and diplomacy doesnt even have a Save vs it! they are shockingly over powered as far as skills go you just have to use them with more finesse than you swing your broad sword. T0hese skills also benefit from very healthy Synergy bonuses.... Diplomacy gets 3 x +2's !!! (bluff, Sense Motive & Kno': Nobliity & Royalty) Use Magical Device. Holy crap! the party rogue is weilding a Holy Avenger and casting devine and arcane spells from his sack full of scrolls!!!! thank you UMD, we love you! Players who dump in Cha' may do so because of thier DM's. If a DM is running games where RPing is taking a back seat to combat then dont expect every one to be walking round with 16+ Cha. I ran a game where 1 character using the point buy system dumped hard on Cha and Wis.... during the 16 hours of roleplaying intense sessions that followed im sure he felt royaly cheased off as all the other players with 11 to 16 Cha and 12 to 16 Wis where Gathering Info, using diplomacy and intimidate, bluff and sense motive so solve the murder-mystery scenario. Players who choose to dump the one stat that controls all the mechanics of how thier characters interact OUTSIDE of combat are throwing away half of thier gaming experiance..... OR dont feel like the non-combat parts of the game are worth spending points to interact in. The only problem with Charisma is its totaly upto the DM exactly how useful it is in any given situation but players are dicing with the chance of unforfilling gaming experiances if they dump on cha' under the assumption D&D is all about the killing and loot. If DM's just made more oportunities for Diplomacy, bluff and Intimidate outside of combat you would likley see many more high Cha characters as these skills are so potent.
april151978 09-20-05, 09:22 AM	Actually, I would consider it a ver important stat, even more important than most stats in a game run with what charisma can do in mind... Take a bard for instance... His other stats are low, but due to his high charisma, if he ever got into a scrap, his high charisma would give him the ability to make friends quickly, making a small army in his name... Or he could grease the palms of local officials with his silver tongue and a few gold and make the lives of a party hell just because the officials like the bard so much... As a DM, I learned from another DM to do blind diplomacy rolls for all the PCs when they meet a new NPC... This sets the stage for how that NPC reacts to the PC... It's interesting to see PCs do nice things for a town, but still get the cold shoulder after they go their thank you from the townsfolk due the townfolk not liking the PCs... It interesting to see that charisma is no longer a dump stat in my campaigns... And I am sorry, but charisma should not be for looks... It's personal confidence... Look at Seal (the singer) in real life... That scar, yet look at his significant other... Sure, he is attaractive to women, but by looks standards, a bit off... What he does have is personal confidence, which is what charisma represents... I know some will disagree with me, so, post away...
Duration_10_Rounds 09-20-05, 09:44 AM	Yes looks are totaly up to the players in my games. Forcing them to play characters whose looks depends on thier charisma is bullying them into embracing charisma based characters or be made to play gruff she-males instead of beutiful female types or Mr. Bean-a-likes rather than butch male warriors, etc.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-20-05, 12:25 PM	Most rpgs don't even HAVE a charisma stat, why should D&D? Diplomacy and other cha related skills should just have ranks. There are skills like this already, and it helps give that feel of not everybody is uber charming or intimidating. Everything charisma applied now applies to wisdom. Making wisdom no longer the second most abused dump stat. Now the five attributes all actually look useful. If anything charisma just hinders the flow of gameplay..
JTalbain 09-21-05, 01:43 AM	Charisma being a dump stat is just totally dependent on the GM's style. If the GM doesn't place much emphasis on intercharacter interaction (besides at swordpoint), no one else will either. I agree with the tables for Initial NPC attitudes, and I think it's a good way to start off the party with new NPCs, but I have NEVER had a GM use it. The attitude seems to be to have the interaction only be an intro to the actual adventure, rather than having the interaction be part of the action as well. If D&D wasn't intended to have the interactions be a meaningful part of the game as well, the skills wouldn't exist for it. I also don't think that the skills should be based off of Wisdom. If people consistently dump Wisdom, then they obviously aren't worried about failing Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive checks, or Will saves. You don't have to be an uber-wizard to pick on the Will save of a Fighter with 8 Wisdom. Hell, even the Wizard with 8 wisdom would be fair game. Charisma makes sense as a stat, it explains why some people have "stage presence" or are "born to be a leader", and the skill ranks keep in perspective that those skills can be learned as well. It's fine the way it is. If I were going to change anything with Charisma, I would make the change I posted above, and make Charisma the ability score upon which Initiative is dependent.
weasel fierce 09-21-05, 01:48 AM	If D&D wasn't intended to have the interactions be a meaningful part of the game as well, the skills wouldn't exist for it. Some would say that the fact that there are skills for it, is a sign that interaction is NOT meant to be a meaningfull part of the game ;) However, I agree quite that Charisma is as important as any other ability score, unless the only thing played is dungeonhacks (and a good dungeon will still have ample use for high charisma)
JTalbain 09-21-05, 02:32 AM	Some would say that the fact that there are skills for it, is a sign that interaction is NOT meant to be a meaningfull part of the game ;) Yeah I've heard that before. ;) Ultimately though, the interaction isn't directly between the player and the NPC, it's between the PC and the NPC. It's just meant to show that just because you can make a convincing argument or are generally likable doesn't mean your character can or is. I think that the people that would say that interaction isn't meant to be a meaningful part of the game are the ones that get annoyed at the possibility of roleplaying brilliantly through negotiations or interaction, then rolling Diplomacy and failing because you rolled a 1. That sucks hard. But some people are better than others at such things. I find it somewhat unreasonable to give things to characters without a roll because their players are more charismatic or intelligent than others. On the flip side, as a DM, if one of my players makes a particularly convincing argument or does something particular bright or appropriate to the situation, I may rule that it obviates the need for a roll at all. For instance, if someone wants to get into a Lord's Manor, they can try to Bluff their way past the guards. If, however, they tell the guards "I have the Lord's daughter with 3 of my men, if I do not return in an hour they will kill her. Let me in so I can negotiate the terms of her release." the guard will probably let the person in without a roll, or at the very least go and ask the Lord whether he wishes to have an audience with the person, regardless of any orders to the contrary. It simply doesn't matter in that case whether the guard believes the person or not, he can't afford to take the risk that he's wrong. After all D&D characters don't actually know that their fate here is determined by a 20 sided polyhedron. :P There are other less extreme versions of the above strategy, but that's basically how it works. It keeps people from playing a Chr 8 Barbarian with no social skills from waltzing into high society merely because the player is used to playing a bard, but can allow him limited maneuverability in this arena if he has a good idea. The skills are there for when you think some people could get away with it and some people wouldn't, because let's face it, the average D&D character who has invested greatly into social skills and charisma is smoother than ANY of us could ever hope to be.
weasel fierce 09-21-05, 02:38 AM	Indeed. I think a middle road is desirable. The "rules" argument is that a strong player is not rewarded in-game for being physically strong, so a charismatic player should not be rewarded either, for his out-of-game talents. The "roleplay" argument goes that a tactically or mathematically minded player is rewarded in-game, so socially minded players should be as well. I require players to at least try. Its not so much how you say it, as you giving me a good impression of what your character tries to do, and how he does it. Then we'll roll, unless its: A: Something trivial, where dice rolls are not needed B: So incredibly dumb or unlikely that it wont work C: So amazingly original or just plain cool idea, that it would be a shame not to have it work
JTalbain 09-21-05, 03:10 AM	I require players to at least try. Its not so much how you say it, as you giving me a good impression of what your character tries to do, and how he does it. Then we'll roll, unless its: A: Something trivial, where dice rolls are not needed B: So incredibly dumb or unlikely that it wont work C: So amazingly original or just plain cool idea, that it would be a shame not to have it work Exactly. Rolling too frequently detracts from the RP experience. However, having to act out in detail every time you go to a merchant or what not can be somewhat tedious. The skills exist for a reason, and should be used when they're needed or useful, but not so overly stressed that they overshadow everyone's ability to have fun through good roleplaying.
weasel fierce 09-21-05, 03:58 AM	A good rule, that someone told me a long time ago, and that I;ve tried to keep at heart is: Only roll dice, if the outcome of the action failing will actually be important to the game.
Duration_10_Rounds 09-21-05, 02:10 PM	I find it is important to hammer out the social interaction rules as rigidly as you do with combat. By doing this you make it an understandable gameplay mechanic the players will use just like combat. Your average D&D player can get his head round: To-Hit rolls, AC, Saving throws, 5ft Steps, Cleaves, Fireballs, etc. But many DM's make social interaction too "fuzzy" where the outcome seems to rest more in the DM's whimsy than based on your ranks in social skills. DM's need to sit down and show the players base NPC reaction tables and say: "These are the possible out comes when you first meet some one". Then talk your players through Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy as in depth as you did through all the combat rules. Show them the NPC Attitude table in the 3.5 PHB (3.0 DMG) and say: "These are the types of rolls you need to shift characters attitudes. Roleplay the encounter and i'll give your a +1 bonus on your skill check as long as you dont make a pigs-ear of it, play the conversation out well and that bonus will become +2, blow my socks off and you'll get +3, sweetening interaction with bribes, clever thinly veiled threats, etc will grant you further bonuses" This way you are saying to players: "These are the hard and fast rules for talking your way out of a fight, getting what you want and manipulating others, the only part of that ruling left to my whim is a small bonus you may or may not get based on roleplaying....The rest of it is set in stone and you can overcome your foe with force of personality, without ever having to draw your sword... if thats the type of character you want. We play with a DM who basicly bins ALL the social interaction rules and just does it off the top his head, how he feels like it, every single time.... And you can bet a pound to a pinch of ork dung the NPC's initial reaction will never change, they will be 1 dimensional and if they like you they like you, if not you can go to hell..... Hence all social interaction stats have just vanished from our charcter sheets in those games. On the other hand when i started my new game with another group i talked them through social interaction and the Cha based skills and told them im playing it by the book and all thier efforts at social interaction will be as clearly and fairly adjudicated as thier swinging of a sword or blasting of a spell.... Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate where used more in that first gaming sessions than they where used in 4 years of gaming under the previous DM and the roleplaying that backed up those social interaction attempts where great, even from the roleplaying newbies. As a DM just let yourplayers know the Social rules and let them know how you will be handling them ... when they see they are as simple as (if not simpler) than all the combat rules you will have players trying thier hands at Diplomacy and bluff a lot more.
l33t Shinobi 09-21-05, 03:28 PM	i need to subscribe this
Jagyr Ebonwood 09-21-05, 03:50 PM	Between all the "social interaction" twinkery possible, and the massive number of feats and abilities that let you apply your Charisma to something it wasn't meant for, Charisma is not underpowered. It needs no help to be a viable stat, or to ruthlessly crush the other stats beneath it's thumb. Leave it how it is. Any undue increase of a given stat's importance draws munchkins like a dead oliphant draws flies.
Xeviat-DM 09-23-05, 04:07 AM	Currently, because of my varient magic system I hope to impliment soon, I'm working on further splitting the mental ability scores. I wish to divide Wisdom into "Will Power" (Wisdom), and "Awareness" (Perception). The biggest kink I'm facing right now is that I can't come up with a non-skill use for Perception ... The point is that Charisma also doesn't have a non-skill use. It's nice that the big 3 charisma skills can be used untrained, but they are still skills. In my games, I have managed to decide upon a charisma use for all characters: Turning checks. Because my world is animistic, certain creatures have the (Spirit) subtype. These creatures include incorporeal undead, fey, elementals, and outsiders. While baring the proper item, anyone can attempt to "turn" a spirit creature. My turning rules are designed after the Unearthed Arcana level check turning rules. If the check is successful, a "turned" creature is held immobile for as long as you continue to make a standard action to hold it (it is remobalized if it is attacked). A cleric, or other character with a true turn/rebuke ability can, after "turning" the creature, expend a turn/rebuke attempt to make it run or cower (or be destroyed or commanded). On a side note, since I may get an opinion here, I'm considering making Initiative part of Perception. I'm also splitting Dex into "coordination" (Dexterity) and "speed" (Agility). Currently, Initiative is going to be Agility, but I need something for Perception other than skills.
Duration_10_Rounds 09-23-05, 07:29 AM	If your choosing to ignore charisma using class based abilities (and must assume you are because you dont mention Cha's usage for bards, sorcs, paladins, rangers & clerics) then Inteligence is only used for skills as well. Sure it has the added kick of providing more skill points / level but its only uses outside of class specific abilities is affecting skills. You have to judge it on its effectivness not its ability to do 500 different things at once. Its like saying an Atom bomb is a gimpy weapon next to your swiss army knife becuase all it can do is explode while your knife can open tins, pick your teath, cut, saw, siscor, etc. The charaisma based skills are very potent and when you delve deeper into class abilities you see that charisma does more things for more classes (Bards performance, bard spells, bards class skills, rangers animal handling abilties and wildempath, clerics turning, paladins grace, paladins turning, sorc's spells, etc as well as a host of feats and spells that impliment charisma aswell) that inteligence does (Skills, Wizards spells, Bardic knowledge). I still think Charisma is doing just fine as it is. Some players may be underexposed to its uses due to things like GM's who dont run games with social content or the fact Bardsand Paladins are not as popular as Rogues and Rangers/Fighters and Wizards/etc.
Xeviat-DM 09-23-05, 06:06 PM	Int has its skills and Skill Points. Wisdom has its skills and Will saves. Charisma has its skills, and a pile of class abilities. The problem is that every character doesn't have a charisma based class ability. Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Rogues, and Wizards have no class abilities that use charisma, and I was being generous counting Wild Empathy for Druids and Rangers. In standard games, I think action points is the best thing to do for charisma, or make charisma based class abilities for all classes.
Kldran Achran 09-26-05, 10:27 PM	One idea I came up with when thinking about the trouble with Charisma, was to make it affect the number of Magic Item Slots a character has on their body. While this would have little real effect upon low level characters, it would affect the cost of magical equipment for higher level characters. I think the base would be something like 6 + cha mod magic item slots, so a charisma of 1 would leave a person with only 1 magic item slot (making additional magical effects very expensive to obtain.
Gilean 09-27-05, 07:08 AM	One idea I came up with when thinking about the trouble with Charisma, was to make it affect the number of Magic Item Slots a character has on their body. While this would have little real effect upon low level characters, it would affect the cost of magical equipment for higher level characters. I think the base would be something like 6 + cha mod magic item slots, so a charisma of 1 would leave a person with only 1 magic item slot (making additional magical effects very expensive to obtain.Interesting. What about slotless magical items and the epic feat?
l33t Shinobi 09-27-05, 02:43 PM	then a muchkin like me (only sometimes), goes an buys many many +4 cha items, as a sorc/pally, gets +700 to all saves nd spell DC's, and still have 350 item slots to use for other things. what then? i like the idea of cha doing something other than the noncombat part of a campaign, because even if you leave you mental scores at 8, the party bard/sorc, or lucky rogue can cover for you in town. i thihnk the best idea so far is to give action points. since i have no other d20 sys, ill put the AP sys i think of in this sblock a PC has a # of AP = to CHA+3. spending an AP is a nonaction and can do the following. 1) re-roll a d20, accept new result 2) add or subtract 1 from a d20 3) stabilize you or an adjacent Char You can use 2 AP for the Following 1) re-roll a d20, take better result 2) add the appropriate modifier again.(ie to hit = d20+BAB+str+ap(str) 3)cure light wounds on self or adjacent char im not sure about the last one tho... ok, so theres my :twocents:
Jal Dorak 07-25-06, 11:27 AM	Wow, I completely forgot about this thread. Reading over everything I've seen some good suggestions (and arguments against modifying charisma). However, the one I think I WILL implement is using CHA to modify Action Point rolls. In terms of flavour and game mechanics this is the best approach. Just think of the Errol Flynn types (the inspiration for AP in the first place, as I see it). They have so much inner confidence that they perform ridiculous heroic acts. And as well, even having a 20 CHA only gives you a +5 to you rolls. Sure, that means guaranteed success a few times per level. But so do other class features that function all the time, such as a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike. Cheers everyone.