Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DreadArchon 02-05-07, 05:22 PM	I'm working out possible house rules that I might use for a campaign (started at level 1). The campaign will be one such that there is a reasonable chance of any given PC not being present, such that parties will generally be 2-3 adventurers only and not balanced. I want the PC's to be useful in this setting, but I don't want the level of power provided by full gestalt--when the group is small, they'll have to be careful. Are there any obvious problems with this ruleset? Bell Curve Rolling (emphasize bonuses over randomness) Players may choose to roll 2d10 in situations normally calling for a d20. Monsters usually do so. Critical hits occur at the usual numbers; critical miss occurs on two 1's if d10's are used. Aiding Another in Combat (potential additional utility for archers) The Aid Another action may be performed with ranged weapons and may benefit allies not in melee combat. It works much like a standard ranged shot--penalties if firing into cover, penalties if firing into melee, attacks of opportunity against the shooter, etc, including that a round of ammunition is used for each attempt. Ability Scores (party balance, assist builds) Starting characters allot their stats so as to have a total of +8 bonuses (i.e. a total of 76 if all ability scores are added together, 16 points worth of abilities above the tenth point), with a maximum of +4 (18 points) in any stat and a minimum of -1 (8 points) in any stat. Only one stat may be +4 (18 points). This applies before racial modifiers. Alignment (character build and fluff options--deity choice, classes, etc.) Alignment restrictions are, in general, eliminated. Alignment-based effects still exist, however. Gestalt Characters and Bloodlines (stronger characters, but weaker than full gestalt) All characters are gestalted with a modified NPC class of their choice. The Expert NPC class adds 6 to the character's base skill points per level (rather than replacing them with 6), the Adept may choose Int or Cha as a casting stat rather than Wis, the Warrior has a d10 hit die, and the Aristocrat receives a bonus feat every fourth level (which may not be a feat avaialble as a fighter bonus feat). Characters may not multiclass their NPC class, though their levels in primary classes function normally. Alternatively, due to the relative strength of non-humanoid races in this setting, a character may gestalt 3 Bloodline levels (allowing a "free" Major Bloodline, three free Minor Bloodlines, or one Intermediate Bloodline and one Minor Bloodline). These Bloodline levels are considered to have been taken at character levels 1, 2, and 3, and abilities from them are granted at the normal times. Example: A Sorceror takes three Minor Bloodlines. At level 4, he has 4d4 hit dice, +2 Base Attack, the saves, spells, and skill points of a level 4 Sorceror, etc. However, at level 4 he gains three skill check bonuses (one from each Bloodline). Each Bloodline level also adds to maximum skill ranks and class level calculations as they would were they taken normally, so the level 4 Sorceror would have a caster level of 7 (rather than 4) and a maximum of 10 ranks in his class skills (rather than 7); at level 2, he would have had a caster level of 4 and 7 maximum class skill ranks, etc. Familiars (make Familiars a bonus rather than a penalty) Familiars may be replaced daily rather than yearly, though they cost 50 gold per master's hit die rather than a flat 100 gold. The death of a familiar is also different: Instead of losing experience, the master takes a penalty equal to the bonus that the familiar was providing (e.g. a -3 to Bluff checks if his familiar was a snake or -2 to Reflex saves if his familiar was a weasel). This penalty lasts until the master gains a new familiar. There is no save against this, but a master may dismiss his familiar without penalty. Toughness (improve low-level survival) All characters gain the Toughness feat for free at level 1. Skill Points (develop character abilities or back story beyond the focus of the build) All classes gain +2 skill points per level (times four at first level as normal). These skill points may only be spent on Craft, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Speak Language, or Use Rope skills. Hit Points Per Level (simple system for players having reasonable but random hit points) When rolling hit dice, a character may re-roll until getting at least half of the maximum hit points for that level (2 for a Sorceror, 3 for a Rogue, etc.). This applies before bonuses (such as Constitution score). Healing Nonlethal Damage (make it easier to run multiple encounters in a row) Once per hour, a character may have nonlethal damage actively removed by a Heal check (made by himself or another). The nonlethal damage healed is equal to the check result minus 14, minimum 0. Stabilization While Dying (make it harder to die) While dying, a character makes one Fortitude save per round. A result of 15 or higher prevents the loss of a hit point for that round (but does not stabilize the character) and a result of 20 or higher stabilizes. Sneak Attacks, Skirmish Attacks (personal pet peeve correction, combat options) A character making a sneak or skirmish attack may use his damage bonus (+Xd6) on his attack roll rather than his damage roll. The character is considered to be striking at weak points in defenses rather than anatomy. This applies on an individual strike basis, so a rogue with three sneak attacks in a round may choose which have a bonus to attack and which have a bonus to damage. It is declared for each strike prior to rolling to hit for that strike. This may not be used with Power Attack, and the character may not split the dice (to get a bonus to both attack and damage).
bholdr_mage 02-05-07, 06:13 PM	The first question to ask yourself when creating a house rule is, WHY? Reasons for doing things are necessary to understand the purpose behind the change. My thoughts on what I have: Bell curve rolling-this will create less fumbles and less criticals. Criticals will be more cherished in the game. Aiding another-meh. Unless there's a touch AC-ed opponent or a tough skill check, this really isn't used in my game. Ability Scores-looks fine. May be too confusing. Again, why? Why not just the point system? Why not start at 10 instead of 8? Alignment: you stated alignment isn't really there but effects are. :confused: That seems contradictory to the idea.... Gestalt and bloodlines: Again, why? The game works well as is, what is the need for the change. I personally don't use "gestalt" stuff, so I can't really judge. Familiars: seems pointless, why again? Toughness at first level: I do this too. It's a staple in my games. Skill points: I agree that some classes get gyped on skills. (The fighter and the sorcerer mainly) The cleric is waaay too overpowered and so is the wizard. If you take use rope out of the deal, it probably would be ok as this is primarily background stuff. Be careful on PrC progression though. I don't think it would be a problem, but hey. Hit points: Why not give them average, and let them roll the other half? A d2 for sorcerers, a d3 for bards, a d4 for clerics, a d5 for fighters, and a d6 for warblades? Nonlethal: Isn't really a big deal in my game, so meh. Stabilizing: Why not just add action points? Sneak attack to hit modifiers instead of damage: Why?
Sphyre 02-05-07, 07:07 PM	Bell Curve Rolling Players may choose to roll 2d10 in situations normally calling for a d20. Monsters usually do so. Critical hits occur at the usual numbers; critical miss occurs on two 1's if d10's are used. This is almost akin to allowing people to "take 10" all the time. This may result in a very different game. Alignment Alignment restrictions are, in general, eliminated. Alignment-based effects still exist, however. You mean for classes? That's not bad at all. Gestalt Characters and Bloodlines All characters are gestalted with a modified NPC class of their choice. The Expert NPC class adds 6 to the character's base skill points per level (rather than replacing them with 6), the Adept may choose Int or Cha as a casting stat rather than Wis, the Warrior has a d10 hit die, and the Aristocrat receives a bonus feat every fourth level (which may not be a feat avaialble as a fighter bonus feat). Characters may not multiclass their NPC class, though their levels in primary classes function normally. Alternatively, due to the relative strength of non-humanoid races in this setting, a character may gestalt 3 Bloodline levels (allowing a "free" Major Bloodline, three free Minor Bloodlines, or one Intermediate Bloodline and one Minor Bloodline). These Bloodline levels are considered to have been taken at character levels 1, 2, and 3, and abilities from them are granted at the normal times. Example: A Sorceror takes three Minor Bloodlines. At level 4, he has 4d4 hit dice, +2 Base Attack, the saves, spells, and skill points of a level 4 Sorceror, etc. However, at level 4 he gains three skill check bonuses (one from each Bloodline). Each Bloodline level also adds to maximum skill ranks and class level calculations as they would were they taken normally, so the level 4 Sorceror would have a caster level of 7 (rather than 4) and a maximum of 10 ranks in his class skills (rather than 7); at level 2, he would have had a caster level of 4 and 7 maximum class skill ranks, etc. This is very clunky. What you could do for the gestalt is simply make the bonuses and tack them on to the class of choice, such as "You have the option of doing one of the following with the class you take. This is chosen on character creation: Add 6 skill points per level (4x as much at first) Gain the spell casting progression of an adept, choose your casting off any mental stat increase all hitdice to d10s, unless it would be higher etc etc... Familiars Familiars may be replaced daily rather than yearly, though they cost 50 gold per master's hit die rather than a flat 100 gold. The death of a familiar is also different: Instead of losing experience, the master takes a penalty equal to the bonus that the familiar was providing (e.g. a -3 to Bluff checks if his familiar was a snake or -2 to Reflex saves if his familiar was a weasel). This penalty lasts until the master gains a new familiar. There is no save against this, but a master may dismiss his familiar without penalty. Familiars: seems pointless, why again? Because the loss of a familiar generally costs billions more than the benefit, ussually making people hide it in a familiar pocket, or not using it altogether. This is an absolutely glorious change. It costs something now, but also isn't a huge liability now. Skill Points All classes gain +2 skill points per level (times four at first level as normal). These skill points may only be spent on Craft, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Speak Language, or Use Rope skills. I've heard this one many times. Not bad if you want to flesh out a character background a bit more. Hit Points Per Level When rolling hit dice, a character may re-roll until getting at least half of the maximum hit points for that level (2 for a Sorceror, 3 for a Rogue, etc.). This applies before bonuses (such as Constitution score). Hit points: Why not give them average, and let them roll the other half? A d2 for sorcerers, a d3 for bards, a d4 for clerics, a d5 for fighters, and a d6 for warblades? Both are good methods, but they have different results. bholdr_mage's results one higher HP and no rerolling. To apply his no-rerolling method to yours, you'd actually have to do: d4 becomes 1+1d3 d6 becomes 2+1d4 d8 becomes 3+1d5 d10 becomes 4+1d6 d12 becomes 5+1d7 which has a lot of funky rounding for d8s and d12 that you have to deal with, or simply rerolling on a die of larger size, which doesn't save that much time. Sneak Attacks, Skirmish Attacks A character making a sneak or skirmish attack may use his damage bonus (+Xd6) on his attack roll rather than his damage roll. The character is considered to be striking at weak points in defenses rather than anatomy. This applies on an individual strike basis, so a rogue with three sneak attacks in a round may choose which have a bonus to attack and which have a bonus to damage. It is declared for each strike prior to rolling to hit for that strike. This may not be used with Power Attack, and the character may not split the dice (to get a bonus to both attack and damage). Sneak attack to hit modifiers instead of damage: Why? Just like with the familiars, just because you don't see the reason why doesn't mean s/he doesn't have a reason. That being said. +to hit is much more powerful than +to damage, esspecially due to hit to damage conversion ratios such as with power attack. Perhaps you might want to convert each attack die you sacrifice for a +1 to hit. That seems a bit more in line. Then again, I would just implement an ambush feat that did the same effect, if a player wanted to do this.
DreadArchon 02-05-07, 08:37 PM	Thanks Sphyre! That was very helpful. Let's see... First, I should note that the Ranged Assist, Sneak Attack, and Familiar rules weren't meant to be a big deal, they're just tweaks (ostensibly). Those three subjects were pet peeves for me, that's all. (Why can't you use the precision from extra-precise attacks to just hit? The "I can either tear him in half or not swing within ten feet of him" thing irritates me. Why couldn't you do cover fire without being a Ranger, and why no volley fire? And why do Familiars suck so incredibly much? So, I tweaked.) This is almost akin to allowing people to "take 10" all the time. This may result in a very different game. It's a compromise between the UA version (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedRolls.html) and the standard d20 version. I like the idea but the 3d6 method goes too far. You mean for classes? That's not bad at all. That's the idea, yes. I see the classes as more of a mechanic than a character concept. If someone wants to play a sociopathic Paladin who slaughters everyone that doesn't read on Detect Evil and who uses his powers to maintain an edge against other baddies when necessary, I don't see why not. Likewise, I see no reason to stop a Cleric of Pelor from training as an Assassin if he has some uppity BBEG's to handle. This is very clunky. What you could do for the gestalt is simply make the bonuses and tack them on to the class of choice, such as "You have the option of doing one of the following with the class you take. This is chosen on character creation: [OH! :eek: I should have thought of that. Yes, I'll certainly change that.] Edit: Wait, no I won't. I forgot a few details when I first responded to this. Your suggestion would be a vast improvement in most cases, but I was also paying attention to BAB, saves, hit dice, and class skills. By the time I typed up all the changes, it was longer and more complicated than the original version. I think I'll keep it like this, barring balance issues. Both are good methods, but they have different results. bholdr_mage's results one higher HP and no rerolling. Yeah, but mine requires virtually no time, thought, or effort. It isn't hard to roll a single dice two or three times instead of once (once per week or two :rolleyes: ). That being said. +to hit is much more powerful than +to damage, esspecially due to hit to damage conversion ratios such as with power attack. Perhaps you might want to convert each attack die you sacrifice for a +1 to hit. That's why you can't apply Power Attack when doing it. Still, perhaps I'll mod it to have no restrictions (beyond Sneak Attack's usual) and change it to +1. Edit: Revision: Sneak Attacks, Skirmish Attacks, Sudden Strike A character making a Sneak, Sudden, or Skirmish attack may sacrifice his damage bonus to gain a bonus to hit. For each die of bonus sacrificed, the character gains +1 to hit. A character who sacrifices bonus damage dice from any of the three sources must sacrifice all such dice from all three sources--there's no half-way ("I smack that wide open spot on his forearm and try to twist my quarterstaff around enough to hit his heart at the same time!"). This applies on a strike-by-strike basis, so a flanking Rogue may (for example) begin a full attack action with a strike that gets +6d6 damage then follow up with an attack made at +6 to hit.
Sphyre 02-06-07, 02:16 AM	It's a compromise between the UA version (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedRolls.html) and the standard d20 version. I like the idea but the 3d6 method goes too far. Yeah, I know what it is. From how you word it you said players may choose either a d20 or 2d10 on any given roll. The idea is though, that if you allow the alternate rolling with standard d20 rolling, the lower the DC of the check the more often you should roll a 2d10. For example. Assume a tast has a DC of 5, and you have a +0 to the check (or a DC of 20, and you have a +15 to the check) If you roll a d20, you have an 80% chance of success. If you roll 2d10 you have a 94% chance of success. Assume a task has a DC 10, and you have +0 to the check (or DC 15, and you have +5 to the check it doesn't matter) If you roll a d20, you have 55% chance at success. If you roll 2d10, you have a 64% chance at success Assume a task has a DC of 15 and you have a +0 to the check (or a DC 25, and you have a +10 to the check, you get the idea now, that the determinations are by the roll, not the DC) If you roll a d20, you have a 30% chance at success. If you roll 2d10, you have a 21% chance at success. If you have a task in which you need to roll a 20: If you roll a d20, you have a 5% chance at success. If you roll 2d10 you have a 1% chance at success. In fact, the Chances of success are as follows: Need to Roll Chance of Success d20 2d10 1 100% 100% 2 95% 100% 3 90% 99% 4 85% 97% 5 80% 94% 6 75% 90% 7 70% 85% 8 65% 79% 9 60% 72% 10 55% 64% 11 50% 55% 12 45% 45% 13 40% 36% 14 35% 28% 15 30% 21% 16 25% 15% 17 20% 10% 18 15% 6% 19 10% 3% 20 5% 1% When you need to roll a 13 or higher, you roll a d20; when you need to roll an 11 or lower you roll 2d10, and when you need to roll a 12, you choose either one. By implementing the choice, you are making your players guess how hard or easy something will be and then modify their results based on how hard they think it is, rather on how good they are actually at doing it. This is metagame thinking, and by implementing a mechanic that requires it will only hurt immersion by forcing your players to metagame. Bellcurve rolling is an all or nothing change, to work with any semblance of balance. It changes the game mechanics drastically, making higher numbers more extraordinary, while lower numbers close to inconsequential. You simply can't mix the two unless you want to make the mechanics of the game mean pretty much nothing. [OH! :eek: I should have thought of that. Yes, I'll certainly change that.] Edit: Wait, no I won't. I forgot a few details when I first responded to this. Your suggestion would be a vast improvement in most cases, but I was also paying attention to BAB, saves, hit dice, and class skills. By the time I typed up all the changes, it was longer and more complicated than the original version. I think I'll keep it like this, barring balance issues. So what are you trying to do? It's not clear, and rather clunky. I would suggest cleaning it up, so no matter what houserule it is, it's understandable.
DreadArchon 02-06-07, 11:50 AM	You simply can't mix the two unless you want to make the mechanics of the game mean pretty much nothing. ...Oh. :embarrass Changed to mandatory, though I actually might not use it at all (I think my players may prefer conventional d20 rolls). So what are you trying to do? It's not clear, and rather clunky. I would suggest cleaning it up, so no matter what houserule it is, it's understandable. Allow players to minimize or remove their weaknesses (or significantly reinforce their strengths) much like the normal gestalt system, but refrain from giving the PC's extra class abilities in so doing.
FoxmanFX 02-06-07, 12:36 PM	Skills I like the +2 skills/lvl, but personally I would apply them to commoner skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex) [Reason: follow an existing mechanic - concept is average people have these skills] Stabilization While Dying Death and Dying: Dying: * When your character’s current hit points drop to below 0, they are dying. * A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions. * A dying character loses 1 hit point at the end of their turn every round. Death’s Door: * When your character’s current hit points drop to -10 or below they are at Death’s Door. * Each round, at the start of his turn, a character at Death’s Door must make a Fortitude save (DC = the current negative hit points) or die. * Each round, at the end of his turn, a character at Death’s Door loses 1 hit point. * A character at Death’s Door may not roll to stabilize (see below). Dead: *When your characters hit points drop to negative (10 + constitution score) or lower they are dead. Stable Characters and Recovery * At the start of the characters next turn, after they have been reduced to between -1 to -9 hit points, roll d% to see whether the dying character becomes stable. They have a percentage chance equal to their constitution score of becoming stable. Hit Points Per Level: Monsters have 75% of maximum HP/HD (except 1st HD which is 100%). HP's impact the effectiveness of Sneak Attacks, Damage Spells, Healing Spells, and etc. If Maximum HP's are used for the PC's - Healing Spells become weaker and less useful, monsters damage spells become weaker, sneak attacks are less effective. If a flat 50% of max HP is used for PC's then the above become more powerful. I advocate the use of a HP rolling system that generates an average of 75% max HP's. Personally I take 75% of a HD (round down) as the minimum. (eg fighter at 1d10 = 7.5 or 7 HP) I allow the player to roll for HP. If they get the minimum or less on the roll they get the minimum. If they get above the minimum they get what they roll. A flat 75% would work as well, maybe alternating at odd levels (7 HP even levels, 8 HP odd levels for a fighter) Or a 50% minimum, roll higher than minimum. or somthing like this: d4 becomes 2+1d2 d6 becomes 3+1d3 d8 becomes 4+1d4 d10 becomes 5+1d5 d12 becomes 6+1d6 The system for HP I used in my last campaign: - Track HP rolled at each level. - Each level get the normal roll. - May take a reroll. - May reroll HP for any 1 level. After looking at it - it roughly worked out to the system I'm now using (75% Min HP Rule) Familiars: I like the 50gp/lvl rule - great idea. I like the no-xp rule loss + negitive effect - great idea. Dismiss a familiar without penalty - great idea. I'm not sure about daily replacement. A Wiz/Sor could swap out a familar per adventure or every day or two! "Ok tommorow we are going in the trapped dungeon, I spend today bonding with my familar that gives me reflex saves. I put my general con granting toad in a little cage until I need him again" I might change it to week or month for flavor and less 'famailar of the moment" feel. Other than that I think Sphyre's responces are well thought out and valid.
DreadArchon 02-06-07, 03:14 PM	Skills I like the +2 skills/lvl, but personally I would apply them to commoner skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex) [Reason: follow an existing mechanic - concept is average people have these skills] I like that. (I especially like your reason, that's usually a good reason for me.) I think I'll add Knowledge though. "Ok tommorow we are going in the trapped dungeon, I spend today bonding with my familar that gives me reflex saves. I put my general con granting toad in a little cage until I need him again" I might change it to week or month for flavor and less 'famailar of the moment" feel. Also a good point. I'm not sure how often it would happen, but perhaps I'll set it as a week.
Wayside 02-06-07, 05:16 PM	Any easy fix for casters switching between different familiars to gain a different benefit on a different day would be to require anyone with a familiar to declare their affinity to a specific type of animal. When you gain the ability you gain animal affinity with the chosen type of animal (With everything that implies, ie the +4 to handle animal checks) and you can only bond with familiars which you have an affinity with. Then add to improved familiar that you gain affinity with the type of creature that you choose (if it's an intelligent creature change the +4 to diplomacy). These bonuses also make it easier for a caster to attract a new familiar.
Sphyre 02-06-07, 10:05 PM	Familiars: I like the 50gp/lvl rule - great idea. I like the no-xp rule loss + negitive effect - great idea. Dismiss a familiar without penalty - great idea. I'm not sure about daily replacement. A Wiz/Sor could swap out a familar per adventure or every day or two! "Ok tommorow we are going in the trapped dungeon, I spend today bonding with my familar that gives me reflex saves. I put my general con granting toad in a little cage until I need him again" I might change it to week or month for flavor and less 'famailar of the moment" feel. I don't know if that's much of an issue if you do it this way: (as I read it) You can only have one familiar summoned at a time. If you familiar dies you take the penalty until you summon another. Dismissing a familiar removes the benefits of it, but costs you nothing. Summoning familiar (whether it's the first time, to replace a dead one, or to summon a new one after you dismissed one, or summon the same one you dismissed) costs you 50gp/level. I don't think that can be abused. It costs you gold each time you summon it. If you want to drop 500 gp to switch out your familiar every time you go into a dungeon, and then 500 gp after you're out of it to get your other familiar back, at level 10, I don't see why that's a problem. It's definately costing you to have that kind of flexibility, but it's not game breaking at all - in fact, with the scaling cost, it's kind of ineffective.
Tytalus 02-06-07, 10:17 PM	Are there any obvious problems with this ruleset? The most obvious problem is that your house rules lack any justification at all. Good house rules should not only provide the "crunch", but also explain why the changes are made, i.e., what the particular rules is supposed to accomplish. It is much easier to judge the value of a house rule if its purpose is known.
DreadArchon 02-07-07, 01:46 PM	The most obvious problem is that your house rules lack any justification at all. Good point, I'll add that too.