Class balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DIESCUMDIE
07-30-06, 01:35 PM Sorry this is alot like my previous thread
Sorcerors and Wizards may only choose from 3 schools of magic they choose on creation. Clerics and Druids may only choose from 3 domains (possibly the favoured soul as well, but I'm not familiar with the class).
All other magic classes are the same.
No item crafting.

When players roleplay well/do something special/important they may be rewarded additional bonuses such as a stat boost, an epic feat, or 1 spell 7/day of their character lvl.
This is an alternative to rewarding extra xp for roleplaying. It allows fighters to pick up a utility spell or wizards to pick up a fighting feat.
SilvercatMoonpaw
07-30-06, 05:57 PM No item crafting.
Doesn't this actually make casters more powerful because now the non-casters don't have any access to magic items? The rest of it is fine, it's just that this seems to set everything back.
DIESCUMDIE
07-31-06, 02:52 AM The party just picks up more items to make up for it. Hopefully shouldn't be too unbelievable. Magic items are made by the gods and just turn up, normally when you kill monsters/pry the weapon from their dead fingers.
herceg
07-31-06, 08:11 AM Restricting a wizards spell list is like, making a whole new class. It is the single most important class feature of a wizard. If you change it, you mess it up. (Think: worst HD, bad BA, one good save, 2 skill points, no armor).
If your players are OK with this, then it's "no problemo". But if any of them complains, (s)he will be right - you just emasculated the class :)
enlightened
07-31-06, 08:45 AM Dear Mr. Diescumsdie,

Please take some time and seriously consider this:

Which of the following do you think your players more want you to do?

A) nerf magic beyond recognition

B) learn how to DM the game as is

As soon as you introduced the idea, I'm surprised that half the party didn't volunteer to DM instead.
DIESCUMDIE
07-31-06, 12:24 PM That was an incredibly pointless post.
All your assumptions are wrong (unsurprisingly).
I'm posting it here to fix it before I use it.
I've dm'd alot.
And I and every dm I've played under have been either knocked over by these caster classes or devoted the game almost entirely to these classes at the expense of the other players (who are left hoping to die so they can bring in another character who is one of these classes).

herceg- do you think the classes would still be emasculated if they got double their spells per day for their first 2 levels of spells (that being the time when they're most weak). After that I think they should be easily able to hold their own (easily) against any other class.
herceg
07-31-06, 12:37 PM Yes, because wizard is not about how many spells you can cast per day (that's sorcerer). It's about the possibility of knowing any and all spells on your spell list, and researching new ones as well. And, having the right spell at the right time :)

I never had any problem with spellcasters, in my group they won't compete with rogues or fighters on their turf. Not that they couldn't, they just don't. They just do their roles: healing/buffing and mass-affecting (killing / disabling /etc.) /troubleshooting ;)

I would feel sorry for you, except that I think you enjoy it that way :)
jagggar
08-01-06, 10:03 AM 3 Domains? What the? Druids don't even use domains normally. What the?

Unless the problem you have is with some combination of spells that comes from 4 different schools, you're still going to have your problems with the arcane casters.

Seriously how about something more like this:

Table: Cleric Hit Die: D10
Base Attack Fort Ref Will ---------Spells per Day---------
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special -0--1st--2nd--3rd--4th--5th--6th-
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Turn or rebuke 2 - - - - - -
undead
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 3 0+d - - - - -
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 3 1+d - - - - -
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 2+d 0+d - - - -
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 3+d 1+d - - - -
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 3 3+d 2+d - - - -
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 3 3+d 2+d 0+d - - -
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 3 3+d 3+d 1+d - - -
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 3 3+d 3+d 2+d - - -
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 3 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d - -
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 1+d - -
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d - -
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d -
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 3+d 3+d 3+d 3+d 1+d -
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 4 4+d 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d -
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+d 4+d 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d 3+d 1+d
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d 2+d
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d

Then do the exact same thing for the other casters, just top them out at 6th level spells the way the Bard does.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DIESCUMDIE 07-30-06, 01:35 PM	Sorry this is alot like my previous thread Sorcerors and Wizards may only choose from 3 schools of magic they choose on creation. Clerics and Druids may only choose from 3 domains (possibly the favoured soul as well, but I'm not familiar with the class). All other magic classes are the same. No item crafting. When players roleplay well/do something special/important they may be rewarded additional bonuses such as a stat boost, an epic feat, or 1 spell 7/day of their character lvl. This is an alternative to rewarding extra xp for roleplaying. It allows fighters to pick up a utility spell or wizards to pick up a fighting feat.
SilvercatMoonpaw 07-30-06, 05:57 PM	No item crafting. Doesn't this actually make casters more powerful because now the non-casters don't have any access to magic items? The rest of it is fine, it's just that this seems to set everything back.
DIESCUMDIE 07-31-06, 02:52 AM	The party just picks up more items to make up for it. Hopefully shouldn't be too unbelievable. Magic items are made by the gods and just turn up, normally when you kill monsters/pry the weapon from their dead fingers.
herceg 07-31-06, 08:11 AM	Restricting a wizards spell list is like, making a whole new class. It is the single most important class feature of a wizard. If you change it, you mess it up. (Think: worst HD, bad BA, one good save, 2 skill points, no armor). If your players are OK with this, then it's "no problemo". But if any of them complains, (s)he will be right - you just emasculated the class :)
enlightened 07-31-06, 08:45 AM	Dear Mr. Diescumsdie, Please take some time and seriously consider this: Which of the following do you think your players more want you to do? A) nerf magic beyond recognition B) learn how to DM the game as is As soon as you introduced the idea, I'm surprised that half the party didn't volunteer to DM instead.
DIESCUMDIE 07-31-06, 12:24 PM	That was an incredibly pointless post. All your assumptions are wrong (unsurprisingly). I'm posting it here to fix it before I use it. I've dm'd alot. And I and every dm I've played under have been either knocked over by these caster classes or devoted the game almost entirely to these classes at the expense of the other players (who are left hoping to die so they can bring in another character who is one of these classes). herceg- do you think the classes would still be emasculated if they got double their spells per day for their first 2 levels of spells (that being the time when they're most weak). After that I think they should be easily able to hold their own (easily) against any other class.
herceg 07-31-06, 12:37 PM	Yes, because wizard is not about how many spells you can cast per day (that's sorcerer). It's about the possibility of knowing any and all spells on your spell list, and researching new ones as well. And, having the right spell at the right time :) I never had any problem with spellcasters, in my group they won't compete with rogues or fighters on their turf. Not that they couldn't, they just don't. They just do their roles: healing/buffing and mass-affecting (killing / disabling /etc.) /troubleshooting ;) I would feel sorry for you, except that I think you enjoy it that way :)
jagggar 08-01-06, 10:03 AM	3 Domains? What the? Druids don't even use domains normally. What the? Unless the problem you have is with some combination of spells that comes from 4 different schools, you're still going to have your problems with the arcane casters. Seriously how about something more like this: Table: Cleric Hit Die: D10 Base Attack Fort Ref Will ---------Spells per Day--------- Level Bonus Save Save Save Special -0--1st--2nd--3rd--4th--5th--6th- 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Turn or rebuke 2 - - - - - - undead 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 3 0+d - - - - - 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 3 1+d - - - - - 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 2+d 0+d - - - - 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 3+d 1+d - - - - 6th +4 +5 +2 +5 3 3+d 2+d - - - - 7th +5 +5 +2 +5 3 3+d 2+d 0+d - - - 8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 3 3+d 3+d 1+d - - - 9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 3 3+d 3+d 2+d - - - 10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 3 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d - - 11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 1+d - - 12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d - - 13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d - 14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 3+d 3+d 3+d 3+d 1+d - 15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 4 4+d 3+d 3+d 3+d 2+d - 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+d 4+d 3+d 3+d 2+d 0+d 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d 3+d 1+d 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d 2+d 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 3+d 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 4 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d 4+d Then do the exact same thing for the other casters, just top them out at 6th level spells the way the Bard does.