Class Defense Bonus as Unarmored Defense Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Defense Bonus as Unarmored Defense Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ClothedUpon
12-23-04, 05:56 PM I've been thinking about introducing a house ruled variant of the Class-based Defense Bonuses presented in Unearthed Arcana.

At first, I was going through all of the classes and prestige classes that are used or likely to be used in my campaign and assigning them a Class-based Defense Bonus (CBDB) based on the armor proficiency of each.

Then, I realized that I didn't think that all unarmored clerics would necessarily be better at defending themselves than unarmored barbarians, rangers, rogues, or monks. And, then, it occured to me that two fighters of equal level might have differring abilities to defend themselves just like one might have Weapon Focus/Specialization with one weapon while the other didn't.

So, I want to convert the Class-based Defense Bonuses from Unearthed Arcana into a group of feats that build on one another. That way, characters and creatures that want to gain this ability can at the expense of other feats.

So far, I've thought of two ways to do this. One would be to give X-number of points to AC for each feat taken (maybe 2 or 3 points?). The feat would stack with itself. The other would be to make the AC bonus from the feat level dependant by using each column of Class-based Defense Bonuses as the resulting AC bonus for characters with the pre-requisite feats.

If you were going to create a system of feats for unarmored defense, what would you do? Would either of these methods work better than the other? Is there a better way? :confused:
foolkiller_rj
12-23-04, 09:30 PM In reply to both this and your other thread, I personally recommend against using feats as either/both damage reduction or AC bonuses. It has been my personal experience ever since the advent of 3rd edition that no character ever has enough feats. Between weapon focuses, things like power attack, spell focuses, sneak attack and the like, no character is going to enjoy having even more stuff to spend his few precious feats on.

I use a couple of methods to counter this problem. First of all, I grant more feats per HD (one every second level, the same as the fighter progression). Secondly, I use generic classes and let the PCs choose which saving throw is their dominant one , which is their weak one and which is their in between one. (The middle, or 'fair' save progression is from the 1st edition SW, and is also in the D20 Modern if I recall).

Anyway, instead of Dex bonus plus class bonus to AC, I the character's reflex save is used instead. This gives every character an increasing defence bonus depending on their character conception. Before you say 'but everyone will take reflex as their best save' also know that I have a 'Massive Damage Threshold' value (10+2 per hit die, or 1/2 total HP, whichever is less) and if they ever take more damage then their MDT, then they have to make a fort save or die. It's usually a tough call which save a character wants as his best one.

I am aware that this is an extreme rule modification. However, I have found that tweaking just one little rule, like you are suggesting, never works to any degree of satisfaction. You either have to change things radically, or just keep them the way they are.

Please keep in mind that there are already feats-combat expertise and the dodge tree- that add to a character's AC and in my opinion there is no need to add feats when existing ones already do almost what you are suggesting.
ClothedUpon
12-24-04, 05:20 PM Thanks and Merry Christmas, Foolkiller_rj. I appreciate your input on this.

I do realize that small changes can change the game dramatically and cause a lot of problems. When I first got the 3E core books (not 3.5), I initially began trying to add in things I liked from previous editions to the various classes. Then, I began noticing how changing things or adding things can throw off the balance of the entire game. That's one of the reasons that I wanted to make the Class-based Defense Bonus into a series of feats. Not everyone or everything would have them and it would minimize the amount of modifications that would be necessary across the board.

I like your idea of using reflex save for defense. I hadn't thought of that. I have given a little bit of thought to alternate massive damage threshold systms, though. I'll keep yours in mind.
ClothedUpon
12-24-04, 07:37 PM It has been my personal experience ever since the advent of 3rd edition that no character ever has enough feats. Between weapon focuses, things like power attack, spell focuses, sneak attack and the like, no character is going to enjoy having even more stuff to spend his few precious feats on.

You are right about the numbre of feats each character or creature gets being limited. Perhaps, even too limited. At one time, I wanted the Barbarian, Paladin, & Ranger to get the Fighter's bonus feat progression in addition to their standard abilities because I thought that the three couldn't really get all the combat feats that I felt that they should be able to get at the time. I changed views once I realized how much more freely a character could multiclass in 3E than in the AD&D I used to play and how different the XP system really is in 3E than in AD&D.

I was in a bookstore, yesterday, looking over some of the 3E and 3.5E books that I don't have yet. One book boasted of 70 new feats! I don't remember which one. But, seventy is a lot of feats. 10 characters may never adventure long enough to actually gain ad use 70 different feats on top of what the core rules offer.

There's no shortage of feats to use up those precious feat slots. That's for sure. I don't think adding a few more options for things like an unarmored defense bonus and variant damage reduction would stretch the system any farther than the upcoming Complete Adventurer will when it hits the stores.

All in all, I probably will add a series of feats that provide unarmored defense bonuses, damage reduction (while armored, only), a feat chain that allows arcane casters to ignore some or all chance for arcane spell failure, etc...

The fact that characters and creatures are limited in the number of feats they can get is a good thing, especially with more feats to choose from. It helps make every character more unique. Each character can gain customized abilities at the expense of others. And, I like that.

Making things like this into feats is the method that seams to require the least changes to the entire system. A few characters or creatures with a couple of house-ruled feats won't require a rewrite of the whole system. The trick is choosing which is the best way to implement the feats.
ClothedUpon
12-24-04, 08:09 PM Here's the probable feats in my house-ruled Unarmoured Defense Chain based on the Class Based Defense system in Unearthed Arcana:

UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 2. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +2 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+2 = +5 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus.
Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook.
Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

IMPROVED UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense.
Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 3. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +3 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+3 = +6 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus.
Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook.
Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

GREATER UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense, Improved Unarmoured Defense.
Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 4. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +4 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+4 = +7 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus.
Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook.
Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

PERFECT UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense, Improved Unarmoured Defense, Greater Unarmoured Defense.
Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 6. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +6 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+6 = +9 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus.
Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook.
Special: Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

So, there you have it. My Unarmored Defense Feat Chain house-ruled variant of the variant presented in Unearthed Arcana. Unless I'm mistaken, these feats use the same formula and provide the same benefits as those presented in UA, but only to those willing to spend a feat or feats on them.
ShadowChemosh
12-24-04, 10:11 PM Here's the probable feats in my house-ruled Unarmoured Defense Chain based on the Class Based Defense system in Unearthed Arcana:

UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 2. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +2 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+2 = +5 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus

Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat?
Just a thought......
foolkiller_rj
12-24-04, 11:30 PM Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat?

Yes, but some classes with the fair attack bonus (like rogues or bards) emphasize defence more than fighters (who have heavy armour proficiency and can wear full plate with impunity).

For what my opinion is worth, those feats seem fine. I still think there are too many feats out there, and just because every new book comes out with a ton of new ones doesn't make it good trend.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue
12-25-04, 12:56 AM Dear god... Can u imagine a monk with those feats? I'd never allow those in my games.
ClothedUpon
12-26-04, 10:06 PM Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat?
Just a thought......

Interesting idea, ShadowChemosh. I pretty much agree with Foolkiller_rj on this, though. There are other classes like rogue and monk that seem like they should be able to get the same benefit from these feats if they pay the same price in number of feats spent.

Thanks for the input, though. I apreciate it. You could always house-rule it based on BAB if you like, though. :)
ClothedUpon
12-26-04, 10:23 PM Dear god... Can u imagine a monk with those feats? I'd never allow those in my games.

I see what you're saying. I haven't had players play a monk for more than a session or two. Our games are heavy on combat and monks don't tend to live through them as well as other characters that can wear armor.

May I ask if you've used the Unearthed Arcana Class-based defense bonuses in your game, before? If so, did anyone play a monk? How'd it work out? Strictly as written in UA, monks would only get Armoured Defense (above) as UA does not present these as feats.

It would be very expensive, feat-wise, for a monk to take all four of these feats. Think of what they'd miss out on by taking them. Also, even with all four of these feats, it only provides a +12 to AC at 20th level. That's equivalent to full plate +4, except that since I've written it as a dodge bonus, the bonus to AC would be lost on a successful feint, when flat-footed, etc... So, it's not really as good as full plate +4 (AC-wise, anyway). Sure, a monk can't wear armor, but there are other things that the monk could wear that would provide the same benefit.

The setting I use is a low magic setting, however, and those items are very hard to come by.
ClothedUpon
12-26-04, 10:42 PM Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat?
Just a thought......

Just had another thought on this. Fighters are better at physical combat. It's already built into the feats as I wrote them. Fighters can take them as bonus feats. This means a fighter that really wanted to be great at unarmoured defense could get all the feats quicker than other classes.

Also, wizards don't have any armor proficiency feats to trade in at 1st level (during character creation) for these feats. Fighters and other good BAB classes usually do. So, no wizard is going to get all of them as easily. And, with the few feats that a wizard gets, it will cost him dearly (feat-wise) to take them all. Aren't there other feats a wizard might want, instead?
ClothedUpon
12-26-04, 11:07 PM Basing the bonus provided off BAB does have merit, though.

And, there are other ways to do it, too. It could be BAB+REF divided by 3 instead of level divided by 3. This would really benefit the good Reflex save classes. For example, a ranger (good reflex save and good BAB) of 20th level with all four of my house-ruled feats would have an unarmoured defense dodge bonus of:
(20+12) = 32.
32/3 = 10.
10+6 = +16 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor.

If it's too big a bonus for your game, you could divide by 4 or 5 instead of 3.

(20+12) = 32.
32/4 = 8.
8+6 = +14 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor.

(20+12) = 32.
32/5 = 6.
6+6 = +12 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor.

Dividing by five produces the same maximum bonus for characters with good BAB and REF as the level based bonus as written in my house-ruled unarmoured defense feats as written above. I don't really want to these feats to provide any more than a +12 dodge to AC at 20th level, anyway.

I actually might use the (BAB+REF)/5 variant rather than the level based variant of these feats.

The idea to use Reflex Save comes from Foolkiller_rj's first post in this thread. The idea to use BAB comes from ShadowChemosh's first post to this thread. Thanks for your collaboration on this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClothedUpon 12-23-04, 05:56 PM	I've been thinking about introducing a house ruled variant of the Class-based Defense Bonuses presented in Unearthed Arcana. At first, I was going through all of the classes and prestige classes that are used or likely to be used in my campaign and assigning them a Class-based Defense Bonus (CBDB) based on the armor proficiency of each. Then, I realized that I didn't think that all unarmored clerics would necessarily be better at defending themselves than unarmored barbarians, rangers, rogues, or monks. And, then, it occured to me that two fighters of equal level might have differring abilities to defend themselves just like one might have Weapon Focus/Specialization with one weapon while the other didn't. So, I want to convert the Class-based Defense Bonuses from Unearthed Arcana into a group of feats that build on one another. That way, characters and creatures that want to gain this ability can at the expense of other feats. So far, I've thought of two ways to do this. One would be to give X-number of points to AC for each feat taken (maybe 2 or 3 points?). The feat would stack with itself. The other would be to make the AC bonus from the feat level dependant by using each column of Class-based Defense Bonuses as the resulting AC bonus for characters with the pre-requisite feats. If you were going to create a system of feats for unarmored defense, what would you do? Would either of these methods work better than the other? Is there a better way? :confused:
foolkiller_rj 12-23-04, 09:30 PM	In reply to both this and your other thread, I personally recommend against using feats as either/both damage reduction or AC bonuses. It has been my personal experience ever since the advent of 3rd edition that no character ever has enough feats. Between weapon focuses, things like power attack, spell focuses, sneak attack and the like, no character is going to enjoy having even more stuff to spend his few precious feats on. I use a couple of methods to counter this problem. First of all, I grant more feats per HD (one every second level, the same as the fighter progression). Secondly, I use generic classes and let the PCs choose which saving throw is their dominant one , which is their weak one and which is their in between one. (The middle, or 'fair' save progression is from the 1st edition SW, and is also in the D20 Modern if I recall). Anyway, instead of Dex bonus plus class bonus to AC, I the character's reflex save is used instead. This gives every character an increasing defence bonus depending on their character conception. Before you say 'but everyone will take reflex as their best save' also know that I have a 'Massive Damage Threshold' value (10+2 per hit die, or 1/2 total HP, whichever is less) and if they ever take more damage then their MDT, then they have to make a fort save or die. It's usually a tough call which save a character wants as his best one. I am aware that this is an extreme rule modification. However, I have found that tweaking just one little rule, like you are suggesting, never works to any degree of satisfaction. You either have to change things radically, or just keep them the way they are. Please keep in mind that there are already feats-combat expertise and the dodge tree- that add to a character's AC and in my opinion there is no need to add feats when existing ones already do almost what you are suggesting.
ClothedUpon 12-24-04, 05:20 PM	Thanks and Merry Christmas, Foolkiller_rj. I appreciate your input on this. I do realize that small changes can change the game dramatically and cause a lot of problems. When I first got the 3E core books (not 3.5), I initially began trying to add in things I liked from previous editions to the various classes. Then, I began noticing how changing things or adding things can throw off the balance of the entire game. That's one of the reasons that I wanted to make the Class-based Defense Bonus into a series of feats. Not everyone or everything would have them and it would minimize the amount of modifications that would be necessary across the board. I like your idea of using reflex save for defense. I hadn't thought of that. I have given a little bit of thought to alternate massive damage threshold systms, though. I'll keep yours in mind.
ClothedUpon 12-24-04, 07:37 PM	It has been my personal experience ever since the advent of 3rd edition that no character ever has enough feats. Between weapon focuses, things like power attack, spell focuses, sneak attack and the like, no character is going to enjoy having even more stuff to spend his few precious feats on. You are right about the numbre of feats each character or creature gets being limited. Perhaps, even too limited. At one time, I wanted the Barbarian, Paladin, & Ranger to get the Fighter's bonus feat progression in addition to their standard abilities because I thought that the three couldn't really get all the combat feats that I felt that they should be able to get at the time. I changed views once I realized how much more freely a character could multiclass in 3E than in the AD&D I used to play and how different the XP system really is in 3E than in AD&D. I was in a bookstore, yesterday, looking over some of the 3E and 3.5E books that I don't have yet. One book boasted of 70 new feats! I don't remember which one. But, seventy is a lot of feats. 10 characters may never adventure long enough to actually gain ad use 70 different feats on top of what the core rules offer. There's no shortage of feats to use up those precious feat slots. That's for sure. I don't think adding a few more options for things like an unarmored defense bonus and variant damage reduction would stretch the system any farther than the upcoming Complete Adventurer will when it hits the stores. All in all, I probably will add a series of feats that provide unarmored defense bonuses, damage reduction (while armored, only), a feat chain that allows arcane casters to ignore some or all chance for arcane spell failure, etc... The fact that characters and creatures are limited in the number of feats they can get is a good thing, especially with more feats to choose from. It helps make every character more unique. Each character can gain customized abilities at the expense of others. And, I like that. Making things like this into feats is the method that seams to require the least changes to the entire system. A few characters or creatures with a couple of house-ruled feats won't require a rewrite of the whole system. The trick is choosing which is the best way to implement the feats.
ClothedUpon 12-24-04, 08:09 PM	Here's the probable feats in my house-ruled Unarmoured Defense Chain based on the Class Based Defense system in Unearthed Arcana: UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL] Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 2. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +2 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+2 = +5 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus. Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook. Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. IMPROVED UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense. Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 3. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +3 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+3 = +6 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus. Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook. Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. GREATER UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense, Improved Unarmoured Defense. Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 4. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +4 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+4 = +7 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus. Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook. Special: A character may substitute this feat in place of an armor proficiency feat at the expense of losing proficiency with that type of armor during character creation. A character may not substitute this feat for an armor proficiency feat that is a prerequisite for another armor proficiency feat he possesses. Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. PERFECT UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Unarmoured Defense, Improved Unarmoured Defense, Greater Unarmoured Defense. Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 6. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +6 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+6 = +9 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus. Normal: A character who is not wearing armor calculates his AC normally using the core rules as presented in the Player's Handbook. Special: Fighters may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. So, there you have it. My Unarmored Defense Feat Chain house-ruled variant of the variant presented in Unearthed Arcana. Unless I'm mistaken, these feats use the same formula and provide the same benefits as those presented in UA, but only to those willing to spend a feat or feats on them.
ShadowChemosh 12-24-04, 10:11 PM	Here's the probable feats in my house-ruled Unarmoured Defense Chain based on the Class Based Defense system in Unearthed Arcana: UNARMOURED DEFENSE [GENERAL] Benefit: When not wearing armor, a character applies a dodge bonus to AC as calculated by dividing his character level by 3 (rounded down) and adding 2. (Example: A 1st level character would have a +2 to AC while unarmoured. A 10th level character would have 10/3 = 3+2 = +5 bonus to AC while unarmored.) If the character uses any armor other than a shield, he loses this bonus Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat? Just a thought......
foolkiller_rj 12-24-04, 11:30 PM	Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat? Yes, but some classes with the fair attack bonus (like rogues or bards) emphasize defence more than fighters (who have heavy armour proficiency and can wear full plate with impunity). For what my opinion is worth, those feats seem fine. I still think there are too many feats out there, and just because every new book comes out with a ton of new ones doesn't make it good trend.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 12-25-04, 12:56 AM	Dear god... Can u imagine a monk with those feats? I'd never allow those in my games.
ClothedUpon 12-26-04, 10:06 PM	Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat? Just a thought...... Interesting idea, ShadowChemosh. I pretty much agree with Foolkiller_rj on this, though. There are other classes like rogue and monk that seem like they should be able to get the same benefit from these feats if they pay the same price in number of feats spent. Thanks for the input, though. I apreciate it. You could always house-rule it based on BAB if you like, though. :)
ClothedUpon 12-26-04, 10:23 PM	Dear god... Can u imagine a monk with those feats? I'd never allow those in my games. I see what you're saying. I haven't had players play a monk for more than a session or two. Our games are heavy on combat and monks don't tend to live through them as well as other characters that can wear armor. May I ask if you've used the Unearthed Arcana Class-based defense bonuses in your game, before? If so, did anyone play a monk? How'd it work out? Strictly as written in UA, monks would only get Armoured Defense (above) as UA does not present these as feats. It would be very expensive, feat-wise, for a monk to take all four of these feats. Think of what they'd miss out on by taking them. Also, even with all four of these feats, it only provides a +12 to AC at 20th level. That's equivalent to full plate +4, except that since I've written it as a dodge bonus, the bonus to AC would be lost on a successful feint, when flat-footed, etc... So, it's not really as good as full plate +4 (AC-wise, anyway). Sure, a monk can't wear armor, but there are other things that the monk could wear that would provide the same benefit. The setting I use is a low magic setting, however, and those items are very hard to come by.
ClothedUpon 12-26-04, 10:42 PM	Just my 2 cents, but wouldn't it make more sense to calc AC by "Dividing his BAB by 3" instead of Level. This way a fighter class(who is better at physical combat) would have a better AC over a Wizard who is very poor at physical combat? Just a thought...... Just had another thought on this. Fighters are better at physical combat. It's already built into the feats as I wrote them. Fighters can take them as bonus feats. This means a fighter that really wanted to be great at unarmoured defense could get all the feats quicker than other classes. Also, wizards don't have any armor proficiency feats to trade in at 1st level (during character creation) for these feats. Fighters and other good BAB classes usually do. So, no wizard is going to get all of them as easily. And, with the few feats that a wizard gets, it will cost him dearly (feat-wise) to take them all. Aren't there other feats a wizard might want, instead?
ClothedUpon 12-26-04, 11:07 PM	Basing the bonus provided off BAB does have merit, though. And, there are other ways to do it, too. It could be BAB+REF divided by 3 instead of level divided by 3. This would really benefit the good Reflex save classes. For example, a ranger (good reflex save and good BAB) of 20th level with all four of my house-ruled feats would have an unarmoured defense dodge bonus of: (20+12) = 32. 32/3 = 10. 10+6 = +16 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor. If it's too big a bonus for your game, you could divide by 4 or 5 instead of 3. (20+12) = 32. 32/4 = 8. 8+6 = +14 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor. (20+12) = 32. 32/5 = 6. 6+6 = +12 dodge bonus to AC while not wearing armor. Dividing by five produces the same maximum bonus for characters with good BAB and REF as the level based bonus as written in my house-ruled unarmoured defense feats as written above. I don't really want to these feats to provide any more than a +12 dodge to AC at 20th level, anyway. I actually might use the (BAB+REF)/5 variant rather than the level based variant of these feats. The idea to use Reflex Save comes from Foolkiller_rj's first post in this thread. The idea to use BAB comes from ShadowChemosh's first post to this thread. Thanks for your collaboration on this.