Class Defense Bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Defense Bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cayln
11-12-05, 08:00 PM Broken rule or not?

I attempted to introduce this to my game and almost had a player riot as they considered it totally unbalanced.

With hindsight I find that I agree in it's current format. While the columns clearly separate the classes into the armour types they can use it does not consider the combat capabilities of those classes.

My players raised Monk, Ranger, and Druid particularly. Commenting that Monk and Ranger were both effective combat classes and that Druid is not.

Maybe this table should reflect base attack progression instead?

This would reduce the table to three columns advancing as per the table on pp 110 Unearthed Arcana.

Sorcerer and Wizard Column A +2/8 DB

Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue Column B +3/9 DB

Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger Column C +4/10 DB

This would sufficiently differentiate between pure combat ability.

Another possible variation would be to use Hit Dice as a guide to combat capability

Sorcerer, Wizard - Column A 2/8 DB

Bard, Rogue - Column B 3/9 DB

Cleric, Druid, Monk, Ranger - Column C 4/10 DB

Barbarian (D12 I know!), Fighter, Paladin - Column D 6/12 DB

This version would differentiate between pure toughness/longevity in a fight

Comments please?

Cheers,

Calyn
zaduma
11-12-05, 10:39 PM *sighs*

I am normally a big fan of house ruling,

but in this case I am not, house rules should be used when and only when a problem is occuring in your campaign (IMO)

Armor is normally not a problem.
_

As for your player. If your condition is this house rule must be used, and s/he doesn't comply remove them from your game.
FriendlyBiscuit
11-13-05, 01:17 AM Druid not an effective combat character?
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? :confused:
A level 18 druid can wildshape into a moonbeast with 10 natural attacks, each of which is made at a full bonus. Or the other example people like to use is Dire or Horrid Apes. Hell, even a Howler at the appropriate level can be pretty nasty, even for a properly munchkined fighter or barbarian standing toe-to-toe against that. Oh, and they can flank with a decent Companion, too, who probably has Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, or both.
Cayln
11-13-05, 04:38 AM The only reason I wanted to add this to the game is that I agree with the concept that experienced characters know how to handle themselves in a fight, armoured or unarmoured. It makes sense to me that attack and defense should increase.

Just wanted to know if people agree with the rule as it stands in UA or feel it needs tweaking?

Druid not an effective combat character?

I know!! *shrugs*

Cheers
Tenzhi
11-13-05, 05:27 AM Druid not an effective combat character?
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? :confused:

Read: "The druid is not a highly-trained for combat character."
Cayln
11-13-05, 05:32 AM Ya I agree there. Maybe combat effective but not highly trained compared to the main tanking classes.
Ulorian
11-13-05, 06:47 AM The only reason I wanted to add this to the game is that I agree with the concept that experienced characters know how to handle themselves in a fight, armoured or unarmoured. It makes sense to me that attack and defense should increase.

Just wanted to know if people agree with the rule as it stands in UA or feel it needs tweaking?Many other systems use a mechanic different from Unearthed Arcana's to calculate class defense, and usually the mechanic is based on combat ability, as yours is. The Unearthed Arcana method is not sensible. Of your two options, I would use the first one.
Jerks
11-13-05, 10:51 AM I use a class defense bonus in my game equal to 1/2 a character's base attack bonus. I was intrigued by the concept in Unearthed, but I thought the execution was horrible. Basing it off of base attack is a nice quick and dirty way to do it. It does slightly raise the abilities of low armor guys like Rangers and Barbarians but everyone seems to like it.

One thing I like to do with this system, is to give Fighters an advantage no one else has. They can stack class defense and armor bonus, with greater ability as they increase in level. At level 4, they can get a +1 bonus with increasing stacking potential every 4th level.

As an alternative, if you don't want to give Fighters this for free you could make a Figher exclusive feat chain called...Armor Specialization, just like Weapon Spec.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cayln 11-12-05, 08:00 PM	Broken rule or not? I attempted to introduce this to my game and almost had a player riot as they considered it totally unbalanced. With hindsight I find that I agree in it's current format. While the columns clearly separate the classes into the armour types they can use it does not consider the combat capabilities of those classes. My players raised Monk, Ranger, and Druid particularly. Commenting that Monk and Ranger were both effective combat classes and that Druid is not. Maybe this table should reflect base attack progression instead? This would reduce the table to three columns advancing as per the table on pp 110 Unearthed Arcana. Sorcerer and Wizard Column A +2/8 DB Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue Column B +3/9 DB Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger Column C +4/10 DB This would sufficiently differentiate between pure combat ability. Another possible variation would be to use Hit Dice as a guide to combat capability Sorcerer, Wizard - Column A 2/8 DB Bard, Rogue - Column B 3/9 DB Cleric, Druid, Monk, Ranger - Column C 4/10 DB Barbarian (D12 I know!), Fighter, Paladin - Column D 6/12 DB This version would differentiate between pure toughness/longevity in a fight Comments please? Cheers, Calyn
zaduma 11-12-05, 10:39 PM	sighs I am normally a big fan of house ruling, but in this case I am not, house rules should be used when and only when a problem is occuring in your campaign (IMO) Armor is normally not a problem. _ As for your player. If your condition is this house rule must be used, and s/he doesn't comply remove them from your game.
FriendlyBiscuit 11-13-05, 01:17 AM	Druid not an effective combat character? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? :confused: A level 18 druid can wildshape into a moonbeast with 10 natural attacks, each of which is made at a full bonus. Or the other example people like to use is Dire or Horrid Apes. Hell, even a Howler at the appropriate level can be pretty nasty, even for a properly munchkined fighter or barbarian standing toe-to-toe against that. Oh, and they can flank with a decent Companion, too, who probably has Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, or both.
Cayln 11-13-05, 04:38 AM	The only reason I wanted to add this to the game is that I agree with the concept that experienced characters know how to handle themselves in a fight, armoured or unarmoured. It makes sense to me that attack and defense should increase. Just wanted to know if people agree with the rule as it stands in UA or feel it needs tweaking? Druid not an effective combat character? I know!! shrugs Cheers
Tenzhi 11-13-05, 05:27 AM	Druid not an effective combat character? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? :confused: Read: "The druid is not a highly-trained for combat character."
Cayln 11-13-05, 05:32 AM	Ya I agree there. Maybe combat effective but not highly trained compared to the main tanking classes.
Ulorian 11-13-05, 06:47 AM	The only reason I wanted to add this to the game is that I agree with the concept that experienced characters know how to handle themselves in a fight, armoured or unarmoured. It makes sense to me that attack and defense should increase. Just wanted to know if people agree with the rule as it stands in UA or feel it needs tweaking?Many other systems use a mechanic different from Unearthed Arcana's to calculate class defense, and usually the mechanic is based on combat ability, as yours is. The Unearthed Arcana method is not sensible. Of your two options, I would use the first one.
Jerks 11-13-05, 10:51 AM	I use a class defense bonus in my game equal to 1/2 a character's base attack bonus. I was intrigued by the concept in Unearthed, but I thought the execution was horrible. Basing it off of base attack is a nice quick and dirty way to do it. It does slightly raise the abilities of low armor guys like Rangers and Barbarians but everyone seems to like it. One thing I like to do with this system, is to give Fighters an advantage no one else has. They can stack class defense and armor bonus, with greater ability as they increase in level. At level 4, they can get a +1 bonus with increasing stacking potential every 4th level. As an alternative, if you don't want to give Fighters this for free you could make a Figher exclusive feat chain called...Armor Specialization, just like Weapon Spec.