Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luega 12-19-05, 10:59 AM	So, any of you use the Class Defense variant in UA? How did it work out for you? It just seems a little high. And how about variants of this variant, like Mongooses Conan RPG's Dodge and Parry defenses? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm tired of how there's no real way of increasing your AC except for throwing heavier and heavier armor, or using excessive magic (Combat Expertise can only do so much). In literature there' plenty of heroes that only wear light or even no armor. I understand that in the real world, if you excpect battle, you don armor. Simple as that. However, when did we see Aragorn in full plate armor? You see where I'm going with this?
jagggar 12-19-05, 11:22 AM	I haven't actually used it yet, but I've played around with it a bit in an effort to bring D&D and d20 Modern closer together. First chart I posted was here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=363945) which I then redid into this: Level A B C D 1st +0 +1 +1 +1 2nd +1 +1 +2 +2 3rd +1 +2 +2 +2 4th +1 +2 +3 +3 5th +2 +3 +3 +4 6th +2 +3 +4 +4 7th +2 +3 +4 +5 8th +3 +4 +5 +5 9th +3 +4 +5 +6 10th +3 +5 +6 +7 11th +4 +5 +6 +7 12th +4 +6 +7 +8 13th +4 +6 +7 +8 14th +5 +6 +8 +9 15th +5 +7 +8 +10 16th +5 +7 +9 +10 17th +6 +8 +9 +11 18th +6 +8 +10 +11 19th +6 +9 +10 +12 20th +7 +9 +11 +13 In the end, I want each D&D class to have it's own defense bonus and have them add up rather than UA's "use the best progression" rule. One of my friends pointed out that the problem with that idea is all the PrCs. (On the other hand, I think a DM can tell that a Dwarven Defender should get the D column while an Archmage should use column A.)
Luega 12-19-05, 11:33 AM	I assume that you would use armor as DR with that. Having the AC bonus stack would probably be the best way to go. After all, BAB stack. This would require a lower AC bonus per level, and therefore a new table, and not the one in UA. Maybe get some inspiration from the SWRPG even. Yours look good by the way.
Gleddon 12-19-05, 11:49 AM	I'm currently using it without the armor as DR rules to augment it. I personally find it too strong (most often for the party) and plan to never use it again once this campaign wraps up. A level 12 cleric with an AC of 31 and no armor penalty... it's honestly been difficult until recently to throw a good challenge at them. So, I would not recommend it.
Luega 12-19-05, 01:23 PM	Of course you had some problems, I did too. But that's because the numbers in UA are way out of line. Nah, the bonuses needs to be toned down a bit. So I wondered about using three progressions. They would be exactely the same as the base saves. Low, medium, and high, and advance just the the saves do. I'm also considering using two different defense scores, just like Mongooses Conan RPG (I picked it up this weekend, and I am already totally in love with it). One Dodge score, and one Parry score, which is almost exactely the same as regular AC save that they apply under different circumstances (you cannot parry arrows or touch attacks for example). This because only three defense progressions doesn't quite match the four levels of armor proficiency (none through heavy). This also helps differentiate between classes that are combat focused, but rely on different defenses and tactics. Take fighters versus barbarians for example. The fighter is more technical and would have a good parry progression, and a medium dodge progression. The barbarian, however, relies more on instinct and speed, and would therefore have a good dodge progression, but only a medium (or even low) parry score. This also takes dodging and parrying to a whole new level (it's really just DM description in the current system), and provides mechanical backup for it. How does this sound so far?
jagggar 12-19-05, 03:08 PM	That sounds pretty good. I assume that you would use armor as DR with that. Having the AC bonus stack would probably be the best way to go. After all, BAB stack. This would require a lower AC bonus per level, and therefore a new table, and not the one in UA. Maybe get some inspiration from the SWRPG even. Yours look good by the way. While it's not 'standard' to my variant, feel free to use Armor as DR. What I did forget to mention is that the D&D classes lose their armor proficiencies but classes with bonus feats add them to their selection of bonus feats.
Luega 12-19-05, 03:38 PM	That actually makes sense. The fighters have enough feats to go around anyways, and the other warrior classes would have to decide if armor is really worth the feat(s), or if they should focus on offensive (or, gasp, defensive) feats.
Jerks 12-19-05, 03:50 PM	I whole-heartedly agree that the Class Defense given out in Unearthed Arcana was not well thought out. I use a failry simple varient in my game. 1. Every PC gets a class defense equal to their Base attack bonus. 2. Class defense does not stack with AC derived from armor. 3. Armor functions as DR (similar but not exactly) as done in Unearthed Arcana. 4. One-half of a character's class defense is applied towards his Touch AC. One-half is applied towards his flat-footed AC. 5. Fighters may purchase an exclusive feat to stack a portion of armor and class AC. The exact nature of the DR is in constant flux. We're still trying to find a perfect balance. Some of my players feel that DR is highly overrated and too easily overcome in the later game as the damage from hits escalates. Others feel that if it's too high, it makes low strength non-melee people just that more useless when they are out of spells and must swing their quarterstaves about.
JohnSnow 12-19-05, 05:18 PM	I whole-heartedly agree that the Class Defense given out in Unearthed Arcana was not well thought out. I use a failry simple varient in my game. 1. Every PC gets a class defense equal to their Base attack bonus. 2. Class defense does not stack with AC derived from armor. 3. Armor functions as DR (similar but not exactly) as done in Unearthed Arcana. 4. One-half of a character's class defense is applied towards his Touch AC. One-half is applied towards his flat-footed AC. 5. Fighters may purchase an exclusive feat to stack a portion of armor and class AC. The exact nature of the DR is in constant flux. We're still trying to find a perfect balance. Some of my players feel that DR is highly overrated and too easily overcome in the later game as the damage from hits escalates. Others feel that if it's too high, it makes low strength non-melee people just that more useless when they are out of spells and must swing their quarterstaves about. Malhavoc Press' Iron Heroes variant player's handbook uses Base Defense Bonus (BDB) to provide "Defense." In that system, armor provides damage reduction (more on that later). Theoretically, there are 3 levels of BDB: poor, average, and excellent. They are (over 20 levels) +15, +17, and +20. Just for comparison purposes, since IH offers very little in the way of magic weapons, the three levels of BAB are (over 20 levels) poor (+15), average (+20), and excellent (+25). Armor provides variable DR, which basically works by turning the armor bonus into a die type equal to the armor bonus (+4 AC = 1d4 DR). That die roll is then subtracted from the damage done. Feats exist which allow the character to increase the DR they get from their armor by a static number, so that DR is, for example, 1d4+1 rather than just 1d4. Shields still provide a defense bonus, in this case passive, as does natural armor (also passive). The most important thing is that in Iron Heroes, BDB is an ACTIVE defense bonus. That means it goes away if you're caught flat-footed or subject to any other condition which (under the Core Rules) denies you your dex bonus to AC . Feats also exist to raise your defense bonus from using a shield, but the additional bonus is active, not passive. Despite what you might think, the extra die roll for armor DR doesn't slow down combat a bit. And it solves the problem of DR that is either too high (making some low damage weapons worthless) or too low (making the DR meaningless). That's as much as I think I can post without overstepping the CoC. But for those with a desire for Defense Bonuses and Armor DR, I highly recommend picking up a copy of Iron Heroes. It's VERY interesting.
darkwarrior42 12-20-05, 04:46 AM	I'll second that reccomendation. I just bought Iron Heroes about 2 weeks ago, and it's quickly become my favorite book by far. If anyone here has played Exalted, Iron Heroes captures some of the free-form feeling that makes Exalted combat so fun in a d20 system. But to make the UA system work, I use the option they mentioned in a sidebar; the armor as DR system, but if you wear armor you cannot use your defense bonus. That forces a choice in characters who might normally wear armor: Do I want to be hit less often, or do I want to take less damage when I am hit. A level 20 fighter under the UA system as it stands would get to choose between +12 AC, or +9 AC and DR 4/- if he was wearing Full Plate +5, which seems a reasonable choice to me. Or, use the armor as DR system from the UA, use their defense system, but you can only use as much defense bonus with armor as your armor would allow dexteriry bonus (ie if you're wearing full-plate, you can apply 1 point of dex bonus and 1 point of class defense bonus to your AC on top of the armor.) That would let characters like rangers and barbarians wear armor and still benefit from their defense bonus. I havn't looked at how the numbers would work out exactly, as this idea just came to me, but I thought I'd throw it out.
Luega 12-20-05, 08:19 AM	Yeah, I've been longing for Iron Heroes since it's announcement now. However, I live in Norway and I haven't seen it here yet (then again, it's only been, what, half a year or so). The independence from equipement is an awesome concept. No longer are you dependent on your +4 longsword and +5 full plate to be effective in combat. That, and all that stuff I keep hearing (or reading for that matter) about a very free-form combat system. Skills, stunts, maneuvers, oh my. But, alas, it seems I'll have to wait a while longer. Hmm, but I do like Jerks' idea of having a BDB equal to BAB. I differentiates between combat characters and non-combatants nicely. Meh, back to the drawing board for now it seems (again)...
darkwarrior42 12-20-05, 09:22 AM	You could probably order Iron Heroes at http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/index.php the White Wolf online store. They also have Mastering Iron Heroes, the equivalent of the DMG. I have no idea how much the shipping would be.. They've also got it in pdf form at www.drivethrurpg.com if you don't mind that form, but I prefer having something a bit more solid. Besides, looking stuff up in a pdf is a pain in the ass during a session...
Luega 12-20-05, 09:36 AM	Yeah, but it's US based, so shipping could prove to be a problem. By the time it arrives here, the local store probably has it anyways. And it's way cheaper. But I totally agree with you on the hard copy versus PDF. Books are so much better, and it looks good too. Nah, I'll just have to wait. Thanks anyways.
Korimyr the Rat 12-21-05, 12:03 PM	Personally, I think if you're using any one of Armor as DR, Class Defense Bonus, or d20 Modern's Damage Threshold, you should use all three. As for Class Defense Bonus, I do not like connecting it to armor proficiencies-- that's way too much benefit for Clerics and Paladins, and too little benefit for Rangers, Rogues, and Monks. I'm still fiddling with exact rates, but I want to have three progressions of BDB, to match BAB; my original idea was to match Good, Medium, and Poor saving throws, but that isn't high enough at the top-end. I'm thinking the rates should be 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4, but that seems a little too low at the bottom end.
Luega 12-21-05, 01:29 PM	Yeah, I want to have three progressions myself. Low through medium to high. I am currently considering the same progressions as the saves. I don't really see a problem with that advancement, at least not yet... A fighter with a +12 bonus to AC at level 20 seems reasonable. It's the same as a +4 full plate, but without armor check penalty, a max dex bonus, or a speed reduction. Stack on a magic shield and a reasonable dex (14 or higher) and your AC should be just as good as in a normal D&D game. I also agree on you that to have it have any connection to armor proficiencies would be a bit unfair. Rogues and rangers are both agile combatants and deserve a high BDB. Both would still be limited in the choice of armor. Fighters would have a high BDB and good armor selection, while rogues would have a good BDB but only access to light armor. Seems fair to me. Using a massive damage threshold equal to CON... hmm, I hadn't thought of that. But it does make sense. It makes armor really count again. It might only give a DR of 3 or 4 (for example), but it can really make a difference with that threshold. It makes for that grim and gritty feeling I was aiming for. Thanks.
Korimyr the Rat 12-21-05, 03:21 PM	It makes armor really count again. It might only give a DR of 3 or 4 (for example), but it can really does make a difference with that threshold. It makes for that grim and gritty feeling I was aiming for. Thanks. Not a problem. Something to consider-- instead of using half of the armor value as AC, the way Unearthed Arcana does it, try adding it as an equipment bonus to Damage saves. Then, you can have scaling save DCs for higher damage, and armor helps twice as much... making up for the lack of mobility.
Luega 12-21-05, 03:56 PM	Not quite sure I follow (though I am tired right now). "Damage saves"? As in the Injury system, or? Man, I need to get some sleep.
Korimyr the Rat 12-21-05, 06:15 PM	No, I meant the Fortitude save you have to make when something hits you for more than your Con score.
Tenzhi 12-22-05, 02:14 AM	I'm considering a Defense bonus option myself, and plan on using Armor as DR along with it. Ideally, the Max Dex Bonus of armor will also limit the Class Defense Bonus. I'm considering naming the Defense bonus and the Dexterity bonus to AC as dodge bonuses and applying the Max Dex Bonus to max total dodge bonus instead - probably at least double the current values.
Luega 12-22-05, 07:36 AM	No, I meant the Fortitude save you have to make when something hits you for more than your Con score.Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I truly was in dire need of sleep. The first thing that occured to me when I woke this morning was "Aha, he probably meant the massive damage save, which totally makes sense". I am so ashamed. Meh. Well, it's a good idea, but I have taken it one step further; it adds to the Massive Damage Threshold directly. I don't want the armor to increase AC, that's somehting you have to use your speed, talents, and skills to do (feats, BDB, and speed). Instead, armor will prevent critical injuries, and protect against minor wounds. MOre on that later. I'm considering a Defense bonus option myself, and plan on using Armor as DR along with it. Ideally, the Max Dex Bonus of armor will also limit the Class Defense Bonus. I'm considering naming the Defense bonus and the Dexterity bonus to AC as dodge bonuses and applying the Max Dex Bonus to max total dodge bonus instead - probably at least double the current values.I count BDB as dodge bonuses too. That way, it goes away when you are flat-footed and so on, which makes sense. However, I don't have armor limit it. Instead, medium and heavy armor lowers your AC because it hampers your speed (see below). So, this is what got so far. Base Defense Bonus: Three progressions; low (same as low saves), medium (same as medium saves), and high (same as, gasp, high saves). Haven't quite worked out who gets what yet. BDB is a dodge bonus. Massive Damage Threshold: Same as CON score (but see armor). When denied DEX bonus to AC your MDT drops to 10 plus any bonuses you might have (for example armor). Fort save DC 15 +(1/10 damage over threshold, round down). Failure results in being knocked down to -1 HP, success means you're dazed for one round (not quite sure about the dazing, it might prove to be too deadly). Armor: Two scores; Massive Damage Threshold bonus, and Damage Reduction. Armor doesn't add to your AC. Use the same numbers as in UA for the Armor as DR variant, but the number that should have been added to AC is instead added as an armor bonus to Massive Damage Threshold. The DR part is unchanged. Natural Armor: Divide by 2. One half, rounded up, is the Massive Damage Threshold bonus, the other half, rounded down, is DR. Natural armor doesn't increase AC, just as with armor. Speed Bonus to AC: Every creature gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to +1 for every 10 feet of speed over 30 feet. Not quite sure if I should penalize low speeds though, it might hurt small characters too much, even if it makes sense. I think that's all. I just assume that you know what I'm talking about, so if there's anything I didn't make quite clear just say so and I'll try to clarify. These rules makes for a truly grim game, and fitswell in a low-magic setting. I expect combats to be much more brutal, and therefore over much faster than normal. It favors ambushes, and desicive action. Being caught flat-footed is very much the end (unless you're wearing heavy amor). Power attacking and sneak attacking is a powerful tactic now. Combat should aslo be less frequent, as the PC now are much less invulnerable, just as in the VP/WP variant. If the players do decide to engage the enemy in combat, they probably will try to ambush them or otherwise catch them off guard. How does it seem so far?
jagggar 12-22-05, 02:02 PM	Massive Damage Threshold: Same as CON score (but see armor). When denied DEX bonus to AC your MDT drops to 10 plus any bonuses you might have (for example armor). Fort save DC 15 +(1/10 damage over threshold, round down). Failure results in being knocked down to -1 HP, success means you're dazed for one round (not quite sure about the dazing, it might prove to be too deadly). I don't like it. MDT should remain CON no matter what your AC is. Just because you can't move as quickly doesn't mean you can't take as much punishment. And I think you're right that the daze might be overkill. If you keep it, maybe make it so if you surpass the DC by 5 or more you aren't dazed.
Luega 12-22-05, 03:51 PM	The lowered MDT is an abstraction, just like HP. Don't think of it as "not being able to take as much punishment", but "not being able to avoid critical damage by dodging/twisting/whatever". It simply increases your susceptibility to damage. Being flat-footed means that you can't avoid damage, right? But just loosing DEX to AC is only a minor drawback (a bigger drawback with BDB being a dodge bonus). This way, being caught flat-footed means something more, even when you don't get attacked by rogues (though rogues would really be devastating). Your opponents are able to take advantage of you flat-footedness to home in on your weak spots. Savvy? And your thoughts on the Daze deal are duly noted. My initial thoughts are now confirmed. Maybe just scrap the daze entirely.
jagggar 12-22-05, 04:49 PM	While I still disagree, it is your system. Assuming you do allow the Improved Damage Threshold feat, then that should probably add to the flat-footed in addition to the armor. If you want to keep the dazed thing, but keep it from becoming overkill, you could change nonlethal damage to the way d20 Modern does it. When you take nonlethal damage equal to or greater than your CON you have to make a fort save (DC 15) or fall unconscience for 1d4+1 rounds. If you succeed you're dazed for 1 round. I'd say just alter it so it's the same formula you're using for lethal damage and it should be good-to-go.
Luega 12-22-05, 05:00 PM	Ah Modern, a great system. I actually prefer the way it handles non-lethal damage over regular D&D subdual damage. Hmm, the flat-footed MDT is starting to bug me a little. I'm not sure anymore. My initial reasoning was that it would promote smart actions in combat (ambushes and the like, or just have the PCs avoid combat altogether), as flat-footed characters are not just easier to hit but easier to take down in general. But now, meh... The other option is of course to have MDT work just as written in UA/Modern. No "flat-footed MDT". Then have armor add both to MDT and tha MDT save instead. Makes things more in line with the D&D level of power again.
Luega 12-23-05, 09:21 AM	Yeah, I think it's best to drop the "flat-footed MDT" in order to avoid killing the rogues and their precious sneak attack. The MDT rules are strict enough as it is.