Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carpe DM 12-14-04, 10:45 AM	I am presently working on a project to remove classes from D&D altogether. I don't know if it's anything I'll ever use, but it's an interesting idea. Basically right now I am going through all the character classes and writing down everything they get above and beyond a Commoner (the NPC class). I will be using this to make a "creation point" system where when a character is made, you will have X amount of creation points, and you begin with what the Commoner has. No good saves, weakest BAB, d4 for hit points, and so on. You can then spend creation points to, say, make a skill into a class skill for you, improve your BAB type, make a saving throw favorable, add the ability to use a type of magic, and so forth. Anything a class normally gets prior to level 1 will be converted into feats (like the barbarian's rage or the ranger's favored enemy). Some of those things that you get at level 1 will be feats even at level 1. Getting higher spell levels is also something that costs feats (ie: you would have to spend feats to get higher levels of spells as you go up in level). However, everyone would get alot of feats, so if you want to develop into a powerful warrior...great! Spend your feats over time on that. If you want more skills, go for it. More magic? Sure! The only tough part will be balancing out the relative values of abilities. Looking at, for example, the relative differences between the sorceror and the wizard. Switching from "natural spells with limited selection but more uses per day" and "learned spells with wide selection but limited times per day" is probably a free exchange...that's more of a play style preference than a balance factor. However, the ability to use spells spontaneously IS a balance factor...and looking at the two classes, the wizard gets 5 feats, whereas the Sorceror gets none. This tells me that as a basic value that spontaneous spellcasting is worth 5 feats. That's certainly open to debate later, but you get the idea where I'm -starting- at least. What do you think? Is this an interesting idea? I got the idea after looking over the fighter, rogue, and barbarian, and realizing that if the rogue and barbarian's class abilities were made into feats, those classes would be pretty similar to eachother. So, why not make a system where you just be who you want to be? There's potential for greater min-maxing, probably, but just like the real world if you're overspecialized then you'll be good at what you know, but poor at many things too.
rigon 12-14-04, 10:59 AM	check out uber-generics by crave
Vaval 12-14-04, 11:00 AM	Dont bother trying, I have twice and failed due to it being to easy for people to min/max and munchkinize, I wish there was a way to do it cause I love the idea but munchkin players will always find a way to ruin it, its realy fun if you have Role Players who just want there character to be the way they want them, they will not go overbored on anyting but look at it this way: In grups I knew a person whos character was a Brain in a Jar with arms and legs and their huge drawback so they could afford the ability (it was already a high powered game though btw) to telekeneticly shot something the wieght and size of a penny at mach 3, that all they could do but it was an instant kill on most things, this that it wasnt still could not take more than 5 of them. I can see similarly cheap things happening is a classless D&D system though what my stupid play testers mainly did was make uber at one thing people.
schulerta 12-14-04, 02:25 PM	I have also been working on something like this: BAB: 1/2 per level (10 points), 3/4 per level (30 points), 1 per level (60 points) HD: d4 (10 points), d6 (15 points), d8 (20 points), d10 (25 points), d12 (30 points) Defense Bonus (see UA): Poor (10 points), average (20 points), good (30 points), great (40 points) Saves: 2 poor, 1 good (15 points), 2 good, 1 poor (25 points), 3 good (35 points) Weapon Prof: Everyone gets simple for free; All Martial 10 points, or 3 points per individual martial weapon, each Exotic 5 points; Skill Points: (Min 2, Max 8) 2/level (10 points); 4/level (20 points); 6/level (40 points); 8/level (60 points) Class Skills: Everyone gets Craft and Profession for free. Minimum of 5 others must be selected at a cost of 1 point for each. 2 Knowledge skills cost 1 points. Peform (any) costs 1 point. Bonus Feats: 5 (25 points: 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th); 6 (35 points: 1st, 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th); 11 (55 points: 1st, 2nd, every two levels thereafter) Spellcasting (just like the Generic Spellcaster): 120 points; Each character starts out with 240 points (Min. 25 spent on a point buy, max 34); If no point buy each character starts with 215; Sample Swashbuckler type: Str: 13, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8; Cost (25) BAB: Full (60) HD: d8 (20) Defense: Great (40) Saves: Fort: Poor; Ref: Good; Will: Poor; (15) Weapon Prof: All simple, all martial (10) Skill Points: 2/level (10) Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump, Profession, Swim, Tumble; (5) Feats: 11 (55) Spells: None (0) Total cost: 25+60+20+40+15+10+10+5+55=240 I know that Armor Proficiency isn't included, but I would allow anyone to wear any kind of armor while using the Defense method, if they are willing to pay the penalty for wearing armor. Troy
Vaval 12-14-04, 02:52 PM	Ok your right, it is pritty good but you have to come up with a way to give abilites like Flurry of Blows or Divine Grace. BTW it would be uber broken if you gave 10 more points to buy from: Spell Casting, All Good Saves, Great Defence, d8 Hitdie and decent stats are a powerful combo.
Carpe DM 12-14-04, 03:13 PM	Vaval, Sounds like the problem you faced was one where you were allowing...um...really wierd things to occur. I can't even begin to tell you how absurd it would be to allow someone to play a brain in a jar, let alone one that can telekinetically fling pennies at Mach 3. It doesn't sound to me from your example that the idea of a classless system is broken, it just sounds like you were playing RIFTS. LOL Schulerta, That's along the lines of what I am thinking, except one thing I am going to strive to do with my system is enable the recreation of the main 3.5 classes. With my system if a person wants to play a Barbarian or a Cleric from the PHB, they should be able to spend their points accordingly and get precisely what they would have gotten before - nothing more and nothing less. At level 1 at least...as a character goes up in levels they'd get feats, and so if you wanted to build, say, a Rogue, you would just spend your feats on things like Evasion and so forth. Some things I anticipate will be difficult to balance....for example, with a quick look at the cleric and wizard: Both get 10 levels of spells (0-9). Clerics automatically know all their spells, but also have less flexible spells per day (due to the domain spell taking up a spell slot). Wizards get one more flexible spell per day compared to the cleric, but don't automatically know all their spells. So this portion is balanced to some degree. Both wizards and clerics get 1 favorable saving throw. Wizards get Scribe Scroll at level 1, clerics get turn undead. Both are abilities that could be useful over the course of an entire game, so they are fairly balanced out. Now for the tough part: Things a wizard gets that a cleric does not: A familiar, plus 4 feats (level 5, 10, 15, and 20). Things a cleric gets that a wizard does not: 1d8 HP, Light Armor Prof, Medium Armor Prof, Heavy Armor Prof, Simple Weapon Prof. Looking at the proficiencies as feats, which they are, this would seem possibly balanced....except the cleric effectively gets 4 feats at level 1, whereas the wizard gets his at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. This could become complex to balance out without adjusting the mechanics of the base classes.
Kakerate 12-14-04, 03:37 PM	I am presently working on a project to remove classes from D&D altogether. I don't know if it's anything I'll ever use, but it's an interesting idea. Basically right now I am going through all the character classes and writing down everything they get above and beyond a Commoner (the NPC class). I will be using this to make a "creation point" system where when a character is made, you will have X amount of creation points, and you begin with what the Commoner has. No good saves, weakest BAB, d4 for hit points, and so on. You can then spend creation points to, say, make a skill into a class skill for you, improve your BAB type, make a saving throw favorable, add the ability to use a type of magic, and so forth. Anything a class normally gets prior to level 1 will be converted into feats (like the barbarian's rage or the ranger's favored enemy). Some of those things that you get at level 1 will be feats even at level 1. Getting higher spell levels is also something that costs feats (ie: you would have to spend feats to get higher levels of spells as you go up in level). However, everyone would get alot of feats, so if you want to develop into a powerful warrior...great! Spend your feats over time on that. If you want more skills, go for it. More magic? Sure! The only tough part will be balancing out the relative values of abilities. Looking at, for example, the relative differences between the sorceror and the wizard. Switching from "natural spells with limited selection but more uses per day" and "learned spells with wide selection but limited times per day" is probably a free exchange...that's more of a play style preference than a balance factor. However, the ability to use spells spontaneously IS a balance factor...and looking at the two classes, the wizard gets 5 feats, whereas the Sorceror gets none. This tells me that as a basic value that spontaneous spellcasting is worth 5 feats. That's certainly open to debate later, but you get the idea where I'm -starting- at least. What do you think? Is this an interesting idea? I got the idea after looking over the fighter, rogue, and barbarian, and realizing that if the rogue and barbarian's class abilities were made into feats, those classes would be pretty similar to eachother. So, why not make a system where you just be who you want to be? There's potential for greater min-maxing, probably, but just like the real world if you're overspecialized then you'll be good at what you know, but poor at many things too. I considered doing this along time ago, but what I ended up finding out is that, when you set point values use a chart. A heiarcheal(spelling?) chart works best. The idea is that the upper powers cost is dependant on the lower powers. You see, the things that make the classes different when combined by min maxing cause certain things to be more powerfull. Uh..I'll simplifiy. If you give a commoner spells, and fighter bonus feats, then the spells are made more effective because of the feats. That means that the spells and feats when chosen togeather must be priced higher than their acutall price. This is because they build on each other. So what you end up with is this.. ____spells+feats+extra____ _____^_____^__________ ___spells____^__________ ___________feats________ where spells and feats when both chosen cost more than spells+feats. You might think that you can give certain things a cost, but It ends up terribly unbalancing after level 10. You might find it is easier to just have requirements, like bow training with a list of things you have to do, like shoot a bulls eye at 200ft and spot and shoot an apple at 400ft and pay so many exp points at a certain level to learn the rangers bow fighting style. Another thing is that most players look at the picture in the book and base their choice of class off of the picture. I did when I started D&D, but now that I draw most of my characters and write up back story, I couldn't care less what the books picture is of. I did do what you are doing, but in the end It seemed that the value of any peticular thing depended mostly on what happened in the game. Skill points are worthless in some games, while will saves are worthless in other games. If you really want to do something like your suggesting, continue to do it your way, and PLAYTEST everything! Several testings of a simple thing like buying a hit die and comparing power over several battles is neccessary. If you make a game with this buy your skills idea I also suggest letting your players pay gp for training from NPC's in the game so that the barrack's guard can teach the commoner PC how to rage. That way it makes more sense. You could give away feats to players when they accomplish a goal of some kind. I really don't know what to tell you, other than when if ever you decide your new idea will work and you want to use it, TELL your players this is how this game is going to work. Make sure you support doing this in every way. You cant support your own idea too much. I change D&D stuff in my game all the time and this always works. Support something enough and your players will buy right into it. Also make this buying method impact the game. IT shouldn't just affect the players. Have it be so that the people in the game who it effects have some role that shows how it effects things. for instance have a guy who has d12 hit die and fighter bonus feats and stick him with a wizard with d12 hit die and spells. Now those NPC's chose things that work well togeather, and when the party encounters them it should effect play. Point out that the they both look extra beefy, or pretty tough. This will clue your players in to what stats they chose. Now that classes are gone you cant just say "you see a barbarian and a wizard". You have to base the description of them on the stats they chose. It is also acceptable to make it so that the Characters who buy their class abilities are weaker than the class origionally was if they buy all of the origional class things. You could say "the weaker custom classes are because it is easier to follow the monk path than to be an arrow deflecting spell caster". It might just be easier to change the original classes into something that you are sure the players will enjoy, but that is not quite as powerfull as the players handbook classes. You can always give them magic items to boost the party up to the appropriate CR, but taking stuff away is always a pain. So to summarize... make it weaker than normal, give the PC's some way to train for abilities they dont have, make it have some influence to the game, and support your testplayed changes all the way. It has always worked for me. :)
Kakerate 12-14-04, 03:39 PM	Ok your right, it is pritty good but you have to come up with a way to give abilites like Flurry of Blows or Divine Grace. BTW it would be uber broken if you gave 10 more points to buy from: Spell Casting, All Good Saves, Great Defence, d8 Hitdie and decent stats are a powerful combo. Question is BTW = Bite the wang? or BTW = But then why? or what? I dont know what it means...
Korone 12-14-04, 04:08 PM	BTW = By the way. Interesting project. It would be much more interesting than having class. Being able to customize exactly our character like we want would be great. Other than some that need to associate their character with a class to be something. Anyway.. But to balance it and everything.. ehhh.. Good luck ! Just like this, how would it be if instead, the point are distributed by level? Or exp. Instead of building it one-shot?
Carpe DM 12-14-04, 04:20 PM	Kakerate, BTW stands for "by the way". On that note, what the heck is a kakerate? The rate at which a person makes cake, but spelled with a K instead of a C to be "super kool"? =) You're very correct that some abilities can become powerful quickly. Magic will be the most difficult part to balance with the others, so I will probably leave it to last....balance the rest of the system first, and then work magic into it in a way that functions sufficiently with the already balanced system. One thing I am toying with is converting spellcasting into a setup like this: You start by spending two feats. The first would be called "Magical Aptitude" which says basically, and simply, that your character has learned to harness the magic energy in the world. It gives you no direct benefit whatsoever except being a prerequisite for every other Spell Use feat. Then you have feats such as Arcane Spells 0, Arcane Spells 1, Arcane Spells 2, all the way through Arcane Spells 9. The feats would have requirements. Magical Aptitude has no requirement. Arcane Spells 4, for example, would require Arcane Spells 3, Intelligence 15+, and Spellcraft 5+. This is one possibility of how I've thought it out. I may do something differently...but one nice aspect of this possibility is that it allows a person to have limited spell use if they want, which is roughly the equivalent of being, say, a dual-class character with a few levels of Wizard and then no more. So you could be a warrior who has the ability to, say, cast level 2 Arcane spells. You can do that already with the existing system by dual-classing, but this method is a little less rigid.
Mr. NewFox 12-14-04, 05:01 PM	If you want some guidelines, look at the UA for generic class, etc. That's a start. Also, a feat is worth less if it can only be gotten at a higher level. For example, the ability to spontaneously cast spells is not equal to five feats, since there is a delay in getting these feats-- spontaneous casting, on the other hand, is with you from level one. Then again, the real trick is to not only get rid of classes, but LEVELS. I've been toying with a system to do that, and it looks fun, but I have little time to work on it due to school, upcoming wedding, etc. Plus, I lack willing play- testers :(
Carpe DM 12-14-04, 05:40 PM	Nah, getting rid of levels isn't a good plan - it becomes tough to guage what would be difficult to combat or deal with in other ways, and it becomes very hard on the DM to determine if and when new skills or feats should be acquired. Besides, part of the fun for some people is going up in level.
Ellanon 12-14-04, 06:58 PM	A friend of mine created a classless, psuedo-levelless D20 system. I say D20 because he still used the abilities, saves, etc. He said the leveless portion was the easier part. He basically made it so that the XP you would normally earn is what you would use to purchase your characters statistics/abilities. He said the hardest portion was balancing the XP cost of certain abilities. He went with the XP awards so you could still use a CR system. Basically, everyone still keeps track of the XP awarded and keeps note of their character level. At 1000 xp, you would still have a character level of 2. The difference is that instead of choosing what "class" to go into for 2nd level, you just spend 1000 points on purchasing the next step in BAB, for instance, or the next Save. His headache was deciding what was worth 1000 points. Anyhow, I applaud any effort to go classless. :clap: My favorite character creation system is Shadowrun. I enjoy being able to do just about anything you want in pursuit of your character concept. I just wish that the Shadowrun game mechanics were a little more smooth.
evilgenius 12-14-04, 09:39 PM	Anyhow, I applaud any effort to go classless. :clap: My favorite character creation system is Shadowrun. I enjoy being able to do just about anything you want in pursuit of your character concept. I just wish that the Shadowrun game mechanics were a little more smooth. Here Here! Damn good system. You could do ANYTHING. Now I wanna get my hands into this... I got a three week vacation coming up, I think I am gonna get into the books and start "valuing" feats, class abilities, saves, BAB and skills... Gonna be a big job. L8er evilgenius
DarQuing 12-14-04, 09:44 PM	There was a classless system used by a game called 'Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura'. Basically, you were given 5 points to play with at 1st level and you could assign them however you wanted: increasing a stat, increasing your skill level, learning a technology schematic so you could build those objects, learning a spell, etc. Obviously everything had a stat prerequisite so you couldn't bump any one skill by five from the get-go. PM me if you want more info.
Ellanon 12-15-04, 05:12 AM	There was a classless system used by a game called 'Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura'. Basically, you were given 5 points to play with at 1st level and you could assign them however you wanted: increasing a stat, increasing your skill level, learning a technology schematic so you could build those objects, learning a spell, etc. Obviously everything had a stat prerequisite so you couldn't bump any one skill by five from the get-go. PM me if you want more info.I have the lovely opportunity to test that game when I ran a computer sales/service store. Great game!
schulerta 12-15-04, 03:00 PM	Ok your right, it is pritty good but you have to come up with a way to give abilites like Flurry of Blows or Divine Grace. Just like the Generic Classes certain abilities would be feats. Others would only be accessible through Prestige Classes. The Paladin and Ranger would be prime examples of Prestige Classes (either the UA versions or a 10 level one), the monk could also be one. Most Spellcasting Prestige classes that also gave full caster progression (+1 per level) wouldn't be allowed (determined on a case-by-case basis). BTW it would be uber broken if you gave 10 more points to buy from: Spell Casting, All Good Saves, Great Defence, d8 Hitdie and decent stats are a powerful combo. I should have added that you must select bonus feats as well. Lets assume no point buy for stats. That would mean starting with 215 Points: BAB: 1/2 (10 points) HD: d8 (20 points) Defense: Great (40 points) Saves: Fort: Good; Ref: Good; Will: Good; (35) Weapon Prof: All simple (0) Skill Points: 2/level (10) Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Religion, the Planes), Profession, Spellcraft (5) Feats: 5 (25) Spells: Yes (120) Total cost: 10+20+40+35+0+10+5+25+120=265 (would have to drop 50 points) Change: HD to d4 (-10), Defense to Average (-20), Saves to 1 good, 2 poor (-20) and you have a valid character. Troy
Degobah 12-15-04, 06:06 PM	From what I've heard of analyses done, you should be able to create most of the basic classes with points. Monks will probably end up "over budget". I'd agree the generic classes are a good place to start. I'd say that you can basically merge the Warrior, Expert and Spellcaster classes into one superclass: A good BAB could cost say 4 skill points/level or moderate for 2 skill points/level. Spellcasting shouldn't be purchased all in one go, instead I'd give every class the Warrior bonus feat progression and a character could purchase a new Spell Level as a feat (the prerequisite would probably be Spellcraft 4 ranks for level-1 spells, with the prerequisite rank going up 2 points each time.).
JTalbain 12-15-04, 09:19 PM	I've been interested in doing this too, but honestly, I wonder how much capability the d20 system has for this kind of thing. Skills, BAB, and what not are pretty much "capped" at a certain point dependent on your level. This is because the rules for D&D, sadly, are much more action than roleplaying oriented, so as a person gets to be more advanced they become better at all the actions they can take. Anyone ever play Vampire: the Masquerade? There's a system that's a lot easier to convert to a freeform point buy system, because it's almost set up that way to begin with. If you wanted, you could have a character that starts out with maxxed out statistics in Strength, Dexterity, and Melee Combat, and it wouldn't matter all that much. You can't do that in D&D because of the d20 system (one die decides everything, and most game mechanics are based on a scale of probability determined by the one die). I think that a better system might be to keep the classes the way they are. Plus, at every level, give the characters a few "Build Points" to spend to buy additional stuff. This might be spent on skill points, raising a hit die, raising BAB, or increasing saving throws. These particular expenditures would probably be done on a level by level basis, so a character could have a little extra oomph in several areas, or just have a Wizard with a d8 hit die. Additionally, you can choose a small set of abilities, preferably ones which are easy to gauge a cost for, and allow the characters to save up for these. These will typically be class-exclusive abilities, such as uncanny dodge, evasion, and possibly the spellcasting abilities of the lesser spellcasters (Paladin and Ranger). You basically would just limit the number of point you give each character so that they can get the ability (at least) no earlier than any other class which naturally has it. So, if you gave 1 point a level, you could make Uncanny Dodge 4 points, Improved Uncanny Dodge 4 points, a new level of spellcasting as the Paladin or Ranger 4 points, etc. Evasion might have to be a little lower than 9 points to be worthwhile (the Ranger gets it at level 9), but judgement calls like that will be necessary regardless of what system you do. Just make sure that it stays balanced by not allowing anyone to take an ability before it is normally available to another class which normally gets it, keep the established maximums as "caps" for any given level for a trait (no Fighters improving their BAB, for example) and don't allow the points to be spent on anything which is the core concept behind a class without really considering the consequences (imagine a lvl 20 fighter with all the Barbarian's Rage abilities. ::shudder::). Note that this obviously does raise the power level of the game by a little bit, but it works across the board, so all is fair. If you work on the assumption that all the clases as presented are equal, this keeps the characters equal, but gives enough flexibility for customization as well.
Fenalian 12-15-04, 09:57 PM	GURPS is also a classless game. you can do alot more with it, you can cast spells use a sword. you can have sci-fi meets fantasy. Only thing, it is a bit more dangerous and not as heroic.
Mr. NewFox 12-16-04, 12:29 AM	I think that a lot of the problems folks are coming up with can be dealt with, though it requires some creativity. Some examples. In the system i'm working on, there is no BAB, there is just a fight skill, which happens to be one of the more expensive skills. A pure fighter type could dump a lot of points into this skill, but at the expense of other skills and feats. Plus there are caps on the number of skills or feats a character can buy at once, based on certain ability scores. Saves are folded into ability scores, which is modelled after the 2-for-1 system from 2e. Class abilities, like turn undead and track, also become skills. Spellcasting is feat based. Hit points are determined using a characters fortitude (read: constitution). Hit point advancement is much slower, but armor provides damage reduction. Etc. I'm not trying to sell folks on my system. My only point is that there are many tweaks that can be done to avoid problems, if you have time and really think things out. There is no reason you should get brains in vats hurling pennies at Mach 3. If anyone is interested in seeing some of the material I hinted at, post something and I'll see if I can make it presentable over the Christmas break. Cheers!
Carpe DM 12-16-04, 11:46 AM	Can't provide all the details since I'm at work, but basically I'm thinking of several ideas that may or may not be used. "Abilities" such as raging, turning undead, etc turn into feats. Easy as that. Some of them may have a prereq. Saving throws become skills. So you will have three new skills called Reflexes, Fortitude, and Willpower. Like any skill you have to spend skill points to raise them. Also like any skill you could (if you picked it as a class skill) begin the game with 4 + Ability Modifier. This means you can potentially have somewhat higher saving throws, at the cost of skill points. I may simply make them cross-class skills to everyone...I'm not sure yet. I will have to playtest to see if it gets out of control, considering a level 8 Elf who began with 20 Dex could possibly get +17 to his Reflex saves (11 ranks plus 6 from his 22 Dex). Seems a little high. So I may have to adjust that somewhat. Maybe make it require a feat to make one of them into a class skill, perhaps. Base Attack Bonus also goes away and just becomes a skill. Using the weapon groups from UA, you first spend a feat to become proficient in a weapon group. After that point you can spend skill points towards that weapon group. Like the saves above, this means you could effectively have a BAB with a particular group of 4 at 1st level. However, while this may seem powerful, remember two important facts: First, it's a specific group of weapons only, which means if you pick up any other weapon you could be screwed. Second, you have to spend a feat to become proficient in the group to begin with. If you are -not- proficient in a group of weapons, you can still put skill points into it, but as a cross-class skill. On top of that, you also suffer the -4 penalty for not being proficient. But at least if you put skill points in it you could eventually overcome that penalty without using up a feat. Spells become a unified spell list. There will be no such thing as divine or arcane. Magic is magic. For spells that have different spell levels in the old system (such as Animate Dead, which is 3rd Level for a Cleric but 4th for a Wizard), the lower of the two types is used (so Animate Dead would be a 3rd level spell). All spells are divided into the main 8 schools of magic. To use magic, you spend one feat first for the basic ability to use magic. This gives you access to Universal spells, and limits you to spell level 4 maximum. There will be an intermediate feat to give access to spell levels 5-7, and an advanced feat to give access to spell levels 8-9. You also must spend a feat for each school of magic you wish to use - and the potential level of those spells is limited by whether you have the basic spell use, intermediate, or advanced. Sounds complicated and alot of feats at first, but bear in mind you have access to all spells in the game...so you could use, for example, both Fireball AND Cure Moderate Wounds. Obviously this setup needs some refining, but this is the general idea I am toying with right now. As for how spells are cast, I will use a spell points system instead of spells per day. Every spell-related feat, including metamagic feats, will add to your pool of spell points. You will also get a minor increase just for going up in level. If you have zero spell points (in other words, you have no magic related feats) then you do NOT get spell points for going up in level. I will be using an "active preparation" system. How it works is, you spend the spell points at the time you prepare the spell. The spell is now prepared and can be released with a command word. This is similar to how a wizard prepares spells, except for the following change: Because you have spell points per day and not a set number of spells, if you do not spend all your spell points preparing spells initially, you can always use them later to prepare spells. Furthurmore, your spell points will replenish at an hourly rate, meaning you could potentially refresh some of your spells every hour if you took a brief break to prepare them. Or you can go the traditional wizard role, and just let your spell points build up so you have a full pool for the next day. I will have to work up a more abstract system as to how someone could be a sorceror... Anyway, these are all just ideas I'm throwing around. Nothing's set in stone yet, by any means. =)
Elthurien 01-12-05, 10:08 AM	I was toying around with your idea of saving throws as skills and wonder whether they're even necessary. here's a few possible conclusions: Replace Reflex with a dodge skill Fortitude and Will aren't really something that can increase as fast as a skill so maybe instead just use relative ability checks with a reduced DC. (Having a fortitude/will roll seems like double handling when a con/wis check should do the same thing) New skills could be Dodge, Melee combat, Parry, Ranged combat, and Unarmed Combat. Feats could be Simple Weapons,Martial Weapons,Exotic Weapons,Light Armour, Medium Armour,Heavy Armour, Shield, Tower Shield, Universal, Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation. (magic schools include both Arcane and Divine) I tried making a classless system for 2ed in the mid 90's and it turned out alot like a mix of the WEG d6 rules and 3e. when 3e came out there was no need. but i'm still itching for a classless d20 game.
Korone 01-31-05, 02:22 PM	:bump:
Lina_Inverse 01-31-05, 11:45 PM	ive said it once ive said it a thousand times. a class/level system is inherently superior to a classless/pointbuy system.
Masterful_Norg 02-01-05, 05:31 PM	Anime d20 but with a difference. All character's receive 50 character points at first level and are awarded 10 character points at each subsequent level. Feats and base progressions for lack of versatility are abolished and all special manuevers provided by feats are enabled but the DCs to perform them are raised (eg. Whirlwind attack AC = opponent's AC+5). IMO the benefits of this system are legion and ballance issues can be minimized by building appropriate encounters tailored specifically to the PCs in question from scratch rather than using resources such as the monster manual. One can also replicate anything that they might find in any past or future D&D supliments without having to go out and buy them. Lina_Inverse, I guess you're not a fan of Slayers d20. Though it may not be classless it's definitely point based. I doubt you'll be able to use Dragon Slave without it! ;) Edit: Mwahahahaha!
Daybreaker 02-01-05, 07:15 PM	Wouldn't it be easiest to start with the Fighter? It's pretty easy to quantify what a Fighter gets, since they don't have any unique class abilities and their bonus feats follow a simple progression. Light, medium and heavy armor proficiencies ... that's worth three feats. Then you've got simple and martial weapon proficiencies ... being proficient with all martial weapons is worth a bit more than a feat, let's say it's worth two feats, so that's three more ... shield and tower shield procifiency, that's another two feats ... plus one bonus feat at first level ... Okay, so that's seven feats in all, roughly. Maybe eight, if you count being proficient in all martial weapons as the equivalent of three feats (I don't think I would). Then they've got good (but not great) hit points, a good BAB that means a slight advantage even at first level, one good saving throw and ... that's pretty much it. Oh! I forgot. Lousy skill points. That's probably not worth anything. So what does that end up being worth? Hey, y'know what would be cool? A priority system like Shadowrun. It could help to take level-adjustment races into account, too.
ManinDarkness 02-01-05, 08:16 PM	What I would do is give experience value to features, skills and feats. In that way you don't have another system-within-the-system. You start with some Xp that you use to buy features and can spend the Xp gained at any time. Prerequisites will help avoid extreme min-maxing.
Pyrik 02-09-05, 01:17 PM	Wow. Seriously, why don't you just use a different system? I personally recommend HarnMaster (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001) by Columbia Games. It can be used with any setting and it's completely skill-based (no classes). In my campaign, I'm actually using d20 in the HarnWorld setting, but that's because D&D is what my players know.
Ellanon 02-10-05, 08:15 PM	Hey, y'know what would be cool? A priority system like Shadowrun. It could help to take level-adjustment races into account, too.I love the Shadowrun system. The creation/upgrade system as well as the game play system. However, I hate that you are stuck in their established campaign as well. I would use it for a medieval campaign, but my players expect the SR game world. The hardest part is saying, "Use this system, but ignore the guns, computers, bioware, and cyberware."
ECOM 02-11-05, 10:00 AM	I have been working on a class less system that looks simuler to yours. I will list some of the ideas that i have been working on. i am mostly boged down in balenceing feats and class abilityies (more work than i though) 1. Drop BAB, Saves, HP. 2. use injury rules from unerthed arcana instead of hp 3. convert saves into skills mind over body (fortitude), Reflex, Resist Domination (will) 4. turn weapon groups into skills (dont use weapon proficency feats) 5. convert spell casting into feats ( explained later in post) 6 convert class features into feats this leaves you with feats and skills then it is a mater of deciding on the # of feats and skill points charicters start with and how much they gain as they gain levels or xp cost of skills and feats if you want to go level less also. I was considering 3-4 feats at level 1 and 1 feat per level with 5+int skillpoints and 10-12 class skills of choice for the spell casting system i was looking at the following 1. use recharge rules for sorcerers in unerthed arcana 2. use feats as followes a. spellcasting abilitys gives ability to cast 0 level spells adds 5 spells to spell known list. b. one feat for each spell level that gives ability to cast that level spell and add 2 spells known for that level c a feat that adds 1 spell to spell known list of highest level castable or 2 spells of lower level this made a sorcerer as the book with 22 feats(23 including gain familure feat) or 3 feats at level 1 and 1 feat per level hope this helps. if you have any questions just ask.
Masterful_Norg 02-11-05, 04:09 PM	Well if you're really interested in using the class features as shown in the D&D core manuals and supliments instead of building your own using a comprehensive point system (such as my beloved Anime d20) then why not try a handy dandy formula? (class feature in question)'s cost = 100 exp. X (level at which the class gains the feature [consider as if 1 level higher if from a prestige class]) X (which level of strength the feature is eg. sneak atack +3d6 would be 3rd level) (10 +con mod hp)'s cost = 100 exp. X ("current hp excluding constitution bonus"/5) (4 +int mod skill point)'s cost = 50 exp. X ("current skill points excluding int bonus"/2) (1 feat)'s cost = 50 exp. X ("current number of feats excluding bonus feats") This is just an example off the top of my head so don't expect ballance.
Lina_Inverse 02-13-05, 01:33 AM	Lina_Inverse, I guess you're not a fan of Slayers d20. Though it may not be classless it's definitely point based. I doubt you'll be able to use Dragon Slave without it! ;) Edit: Mwahahahaha! whatcha talking about.i gots slayers d20 right here(my precious) its definitly a class/lvl system.
HailSpork 02-13-05, 02:27 AM	I love the Shadowrun system. The creation/upgrade system as well as the game play system. However, I hate that you are stuck in their established campaign as well. I would use it for a medieval campaign, but my players expect the SR game world. The hardest part is saying, "Use this system, but ignore the guns, computers, bioware, and cyberware." Yeah, too bad Earthdawn didn't use the same system. I never understood that; why are they both the same world, but completely different systems? Personally, I think you'd need to make a new system to remove classes from DnD. That's what I did. It's not nearly finished yet (and we've kind of put it on hold for a while), but if anybody wants to look at it, it's here: http://astroturf.croyle.org/
Masterful_Norg 02-13-05, 11:01 PM	its definitly a class/lvl system Sure... but aren't attributes and defects the point of playing an Anime d20 based game? They're the only thing I use.
Psionic Brick Thrower 02-14-05, 09:13 AM	This Sounds exactly like the BESM system, so definitly Check that out, It still uses levels though. But here's what I would shoot for to be even more true to life, a use based skill system, I've been brainstorming ways to do that recently, but since your already in rebuild the game mode, it's a thought.
Masterful_Norg 02-14-05, 12:40 PM	Anime d20 and BESM are basically the same thing (unless you're thinking Tri Stat). Check out the SRD (http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/). (The attributes and defects sections are the point based part and the combat system has some nifty alterations that are worth looking at.)
Lina_Inverse 02-15-05, 02:30 AM	Sure... but aren't attributes and defects the point of playing an Anime d20 based game? They're the only thing I use. i like keeping my besm(sweet baby system).and D20 seperate. xD and slayers isnt besm d20.check it out.
Masterful_Norg 02-15-05, 12:35 PM	And Anime d20 is not always BESM because BESM can be Tri stat. I guess my first mistake was to assume that because Slayer's D20 was anime based it would be in some way related to Anime D20. As this is seemingly not the case I shall now self administer electric shock. However the Attributes and Defects provide versatility of such a high order that I am willing to go the extra mile to fine tune encounters for the sake of balance rather than rely on systems which use rigid character roles. It also makes roleplaying with game mechanics less capital intensive if I don't have to go out and buy the supliments in order to facilitate interesting character concepts that the current rules do not permit. Instead I can focus on campaign setting books for the valuable fluff inside or just use my own campaign setting.