Cleric:spell changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric:spell changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
angryman
02-08-07, 09:52 AM OK, I know this is about clerics, but it pertains to houserules about clerics, so I'm posting it here.

I personally believe (and it seems a lot of others too) that the cleric gets a little too much in the way of, well, everything. So I'm going to suggest some changes to some of their core spells. Spells from other books, I'll leave alone.

Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos
Now gives a Will save to negate the effects, and can harm up to 1 target per level in the radius.

Destruction: xp cost: 300
Asking your god to kill and banish the soul of your foe is no mean request: it requires a small personal sacrifice.

Silence:
Always allows a save anytime you wish to affect someone with it. If you cast it on an item, then place the item near an enemy, the enemy gets a save to resist the effect. (This is to prevent no save silencings, which is too good for a level 2 spell effect)
bartleby42
02-08-07, 09:14 PM I personally believe (and it seems a lot of others too) that the cleric gets a little too much in the way of, well, everything. So I'm going to suggest some changes to some of their core spells. Spells from other books, I'll leave alone.
Divine casters tend to get more "bang for their buck" mostly because they need to. While they can get crazy overpowered it is important not to lower Clerics and such to the same level as all the other classes. Why? Because they are your healing. If they were underpowered, or evenly powered the argument about who "has to" play the cleric will be twice as long when everyone rolls up stats.

Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos
Now gives a Will save to negate the effects, and can harm up to 1 target per level in the radius.

I'm not sure it needs it, if and only if the creature is of equal or lower level than you is of any use, and even then unless you are far more powerful then your foe it's a 7th level spell that achives what a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell does. In all honesty unless you have to clear a room of low HD creatures a hightened blindness/deafness is better.

That being said, nobody I know uses this spell so the nerf will go unnoticed.

Destruction: xp cost: 300
Asking your god to kill and banish the soul of your foe is no mean request: it requires a small personal sacrifice.

M'kay, though I think 300XP is a little high, make it around 50-100XP and it makes sense.

Silence:
Always allows a save anytime you wish to affect someone with it. If you cast it on an item, then place the item near an enemy, the enemy gets a save to resist the effect. (This is to prevent no save silencings, which is too good for a level 2 spell effect)

YES YES YES YES!!!!

Sorry about that, I had a moment.

Ahem. This is not only a good rule but IMHO is more to the spirit of the spell then its current use. My opinion on it's intent is that if you want to cease yourself or a friend from making noise(i.e. to help sneak) there is no save, but if you want to silence someone else it requires a save.
angryman
02-08-07, 09:45 PM Well, the thing with Blasphemy etc, is that it's often not fantastic, but when it's good, it's insanely good. You can TPK a party with it as a DM, and as a PC you can sometimes just nuke a room full of people similar to your level with no save. That's what I don't like.

As for Destruction, yeah 300xp is a little steep. I just want to add a small cost so it's not so...good.

As for Silence, well, that's always bugged me. I don't like "no save" effects, unless the spell's power is designed around it having no save. Like Power Words etc.
Neutronium_Dragon
02-08-07, 11:34 PM I don't think Destruction needs it. Comapred to the other spells of that level which are floating around, it's really rather ordinary.
angryman
02-09-07, 09:32 AM I don't think Destruction needs it. Comapred to the other spells of that level which are floating around, it's really rather ordinary.

Really?
* Ranged death attack
* Deals 10d6 on a successful save
* Very difficult to raise someone killed by it (requires Wish?)

Compare it to the wizard Finger of Death, which doesn't do near the same partial damage and has no penalties to raising.
Neutronium_Dragon
02-09-07, 09:51 AM It does, actually.

Both are [death] effects, which makes it darned difficult to resurrect someone hit by either.

The damage on a successful save from FoD is a bit lower when you first get it and a bit higher later on, so that's a wash too.
Ghenesh
02-09-07, 02:45 PM Divine Power!

Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
This spell at epic levels gets crazy, so i'd make this:
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your caster level (maximum +20), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
Or simply removing the whole spell from your game.
ShinoAburame
02-09-07, 05:54 PM Divine casters tend to get more "bang for their buck" mostly because they need to. While they can get crazy overpowered it is important not to lower Clerics and such to the same level as all the other classes. Why? Because they are your healing. If they were underpowered, or evenly powered the argument about who "has to" play the cleric will be twice as long when everyone rolls up stats.
Then apparently you're not gaming for fun, so what's the point? Things are more fun when people are even, not when one guy is strictly better then everybody else. Personaly I like being the healer. I'd rather not be in the heat of battle risking life and limb. And I more then anyone complain about the divine caster's brokeness.

Saying divine casters need to be overpowerd cause nobody plays them is like saying not to roll dice in RPGs because they're too random. Whether it has a point or not, it ruins everything.
bartleby42
02-10-07, 01:27 PM Then apparently you're not gaming for fun, so what's the point? Things are more fun when people are even, not when one guy is strictly better then everybody else. Personaly I like being the healer. I'd rather not be in the heat of battle risking life and limb. And I more then anyone complain about the divine caster's brokeness.

Saying divine casters need to be overpowerd cause nobody plays them is like saying not to roll dice in RPGs because they're too random. Whether it has a point or not, it ruins everything.

Wow, I think that we have a bit of miscommunication here. I feel that the main goal of D&D is fun, otherwise why play it? The reason I belive divine casters are more powerful is because most people do not find healing fun. In my experiance whenever a new campain starts everyone rushes madly to come up with a charecter concept so they aren't "stuck" playing the cleric. The idea is not to entice players into playing clerics but to let them do more than just heal. In second edition clerics were still more powerful then other classes but playing them was very lackluster, all of your spells were Cures, you couldn't memorize any other spell at the risk of not being able to heal. Even though they had good melee and spell casting ablitiy they were pretty much relegated to being the healer.

Subsititution and divine feats are really neat toys. They do allow you to become ridiculously powerful (*cough* divine metamagic and persistant spell *cough*) but the fact remains in most groups, the cleric will spend just as much time healing as s/he spends fighting. Why not let the cleric shine for the rounds s/he fights? Otherwise you begin to feel like a NPC medic in a video game where all you ever do is heal the hero.

I'm not saying it's the best of all solutions but it does allow the game to be enjoyable for those who are "forced" into playing a cleric.

And anyway in my groups we don't really mind if one player outshines the others from time to time, usally what goes around comes around.
angryman
02-12-07, 08:20 AM But the thing is, if you overpower the cleric merely because he's "stuck" being the healer, then some people will play the cleric to kick ass. Because they really, really do. Every really broken combat from levels 5-20 I've experienced has been because of a cleric.
Healing is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Some people like healing, by the way. It's like saying fighters should get full spellcasting because they're "stucK" as tanks because believe me, I find endlessly hitting things with a sword more boring than healing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryman 02-08-07, 09:52 AM	OK, I know this is about clerics, but it pertains to houserules about clerics, so I'm posting it here. I personally believe (and it seems a lot of others too) that the cleric gets a little too much in the way of, well, everything. So I'm going to suggest some changes to some of their core spells. Spells from other books, I'll leave alone. Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos Now gives a Will save to negate the effects, and can harm up to 1 target per level in the radius. Destruction: xp cost: 300 Asking your god to kill and banish the soul of your foe is no mean request: it requires a small personal sacrifice. Silence: Always allows a save anytime you wish to affect someone with it. If you cast it on an item, then place the item near an enemy, the enemy gets a save to resist the effect. (This is to prevent no save silencings, which is too good for a level 2 spell effect)
bartleby42 02-08-07, 09:14 PM	I personally believe (and it seems a lot of others too) that the cleric gets a little too much in the way of, well, everything. So I'm going to suggest some changes to some of their core spells. Spells from other books, I'll leave alone. Divine casters tend to get more "bang for their buck" mostly because they need to. While they can get crazy overpowered it is important not to lower Clerics and such to the same level as all the other classes. Why? Because they are your healing. If they were underpowered, or evenly powered the argument about who "has to" play the cleric will be twice as long when everyone rolls up stats. Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos Now gives a Will save to negate the effects, and can harm up to 1 target per level in the radius. I'm not sure it needs it, if and only if the creature is of equal or lower level than you is of any use, and even then unless you are far more powerful then your foe it's a 7th level spell that achives what a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell does. In all honesty unless you have to clear a room of low HD creatures a hightened blindness/deafness is better. That being said, nobody I know uses this spell so the nerf will go unnoticed. Destruction: xp cost: 300 Asking your god to kill and banish the soul of your foe is no mean request: it requires a small personal sacrifice. M'kay, though I think 300XP is a little high, make it around 50-100XP and it makes sense. Silence: Always allows a save anytime you wish to affect someone with it. If you cast it on an item, then place the item near an enemy, the enemy gets a save to resist the effect. (This is to prevent no save silencings, which is too good for a level 2 spell effect) YES YES YES YES!!!! Sorry about that, I had a moment. Ahem. This is not only a good rule but IMHO is more to the spirit of the spell then its current use. My opinion on it's intent is that if you want to cease yourself or a friend from making noise(i.e. to help sneak) there is no save, but if you want to silence someone else it requires a save.
angryman 02-08-07, 09:45 PM	Well, the thing with Blasphemy etc, is that it's often not fantastic, but when it's good, it's insanely good. You can TPK a party with it as a DM, and as a PC you can sometimes just nuke a room full of people similar to your level with no save. That's what I don't like. As for Destruction, yeah 300xp is a little steep. I just want to add a small cost so it's not so...good. As for Silence, well, that's always bugged me. I don't like "no save" effects, unless the spell's power is designed around it having no save. Like Power Words etc.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-08-07, 11:34 PM	I don't think Destruction needs it. Comapred to the other spells of that level which are floating around, it's really rather ordinary.
angryman 02-09-07, 09:32 AM	I don't think Destruction needs it. Comapred to the other spells of that level which are floating around, it's really rather ordinary. Really? * Ranged death attack * Deals 10d6 on a successful save * Very difficult to raise someone killed by it (requires Wish?) Compare it to the wizard Finger of Death, which doesn't do near the same partial damage and has no penalties to raising.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-09-07, 09:51 AM	It does, actually. Both are [death] effects, which makes it darned difficult to resurrect someone hit by either. The damage on a successful save from FoD is a bit lower when you first get it and a bit higher later on, so that's a wash too.
Ghenesh 02-09-07, 02:45 PM	Divine Power! Divine Power Evocation Level: Clr 4, War 4 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. This spell at epic levels gets crazy, so i'd make this: Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your caster level (maximum +20), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. Or simply removing the whole spell from your game.
ShinoAburame 02-09-07, 05:54 PM	Divine casters tend to get more "bang for their buck" mostly because they need to. While they can get crazy overpowered it is important not to lower Clerics and such to the same level as all the other classes. Why? Because they are your healing. If they were underpowered, or evenly powered the argument about who "has to" play the cleric will be twice as long when everyone rolls up stats. Then apparently you're not gaming for fun, so what's the point? Things are more fun when people are even, not when one guy is strictly better then everybody else. Personaly I like being the healer. I'd rather not be in the heat of battle risking life and limb. And I more then anyone complain about the divine caster's brokeness. Saying divine casters need to be overpowerd cause nobody plays them is like saying not to roll dice in RPGs because they're too random. Whether it has a point or not, it ruins everything.
bartleby42 02-10-07, 01:27 PM	Then apparently you're not gaming for fun, so what's the point? Things are more fun when people are even, not when one guy is strictly better then everybody else. Personaly I like being the healer. I'd rather not be in the heat of battle risking life and limb. And I more then anyone complain about the divine caster's brokeness. Saying divine casters need to be overpowerd cause nobody plays them is like saying not to roll dice in RPGs because they're too random. Whether it has a point or not, it ruins everything. Wow, I think that we have a bit of miscommunication here. I feel that the main goal of D&D is fun, otherwise why play it? The reason I belive divine casters are more powerful is because most people do not find healing fun. In my experiance whenever a new campain starts everyone rushes madly to come up with a charecter concept so they aren't "stuck" playing the cleric. The idea is not to entice players into playing clerics but to let them do more than just heal. In second edition clerics were still more powerful then other classes but playing them was very lackluster, all of your spells were Cures, you couldn't memorize any other spell at the risk of not being able to heal. Even though they had good melee and spell casting ablitiy they were pretty much relegated to being the healer. Subsititution and divine feats are really neat toys. They do allow you to become ridiculously powerful (cough divine metamagic and persistant spell cough) but the fact remains in most groups, the cleric will spend just as much time healing as s/he spends fighting. Why not let the cleric shine for the rounds s/he fights? Otherwise you begin to feel like a NPC medic in a video game where all you ever do is heal the hero. I'm not saying it's the best of all solutions but it does allow the game to be enjoyable for those who are "forced" into playing a cleric. And anyway in my groups we don't really mind if one player outshines the others from time to time, usally what goes around comes around.
angryman 02-12-07, 08:20 AM	But the thing is, if you overpower the cleric merely because he's "stuck" being the healer, then some people will play the cleric to kick ass. Because they really, really do. Every really broken combat from levels 5-20 I've experienced has been because of a cleric. Healing is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Some people like healing, by the way. It's like saying fighters should get full spellcasting because they're "stucK" as tanks because believe me, I find endlessly hitting things with a sword more boring than healing.