Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kurikin 06-24-07, 10:36 PM	Would making Initiative a Reflex check be at all unbalancing? My reasoning is that a person with faster reflexes should be able to react to a combat situation faster. Bonuses that apply to Initiative such as Improved Initiative would still only affect Initiative checks.
LoreKeeper 06-25-07, 08:52 AM	They are related, hence the dexterity modifier bonus to both reflex and initiative - but reflexes attest to your ability to react to direct assaults (spell, melee, or otherwise) while initiative focusses on your ability to act in a combat situation. I'd allow a reflex save to bring a shield to bear or draw a weapon in a surprise combat round or even make an attack of opportunity when flat-footed - but initiative tests your ability to grasp the complexity of a combat situation and determine the resolve to act on it. Put another way, a reflex is an instictive reaction to an event - it cannot account for a character making a complex series of actions (to wit: Running around, declaring tumble checks, casting defensively, aiming an arrow, etc).
Arcade 06-25-07, 10:31 AM	I think it becomes a little unblancing at your higher levels where your rogues always win initiative and thus get to sneak attack all the time. A 10th level rogue has a base reflex save of +7, most other classes only get +3. That's like giving the rogue Improved Initiative for free, and they usually have a higher dex bonus already. If they actually take Improved Initiative, the difference becomes huge. Without sneak attack and flat footed rules, it might not be that big of a deal, but with those rules in place, it can be unbalancing.
Kurikin 06-26-07, 12:43 AM	Gah, I can't remember where I read this. I remember reading something about in Star Wars Saga where you get your base reflex to initiative. I don't think it would really be all that unbalancing having quicker characters go first. After all, they are quicker at reacting to things. LoreKeeper What I got out of what you said is you should also get your Int and Wis to initiative and it has almost nothing to do with your reflexes. Intelligence determines how well your character learns and Reasons. Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While intelligence represents one's ability to analyze information, wisdom represents being in tune and aware of one's surroundings.
Tomkin 06-28-07, 11:19 AM	Really? Adding Int to initiative doesn't make sense to me. Just because you're smart doesn't mean you react to things quickly. Wisdom makes sense, and also prevents it from being an auto-dump for combat types. But your ability to reason shouldn't give you a faster reaction time, or help you notice danger. That's why skills like Spot are based on Wisdom, not Intelligence.
Necroblivion 06-28-07, 10:43 PM	I'm doing a new setting and I toyed with this as well. Something grabs at me here, but ultimately I think there is a balance issue. As it was said, the rogues benefit 200% from this. I personally thing a "surprise check" should be a Reflex save, not necessarily a spot check. I've personally been shocked to see things happen, but I stood in mute horror watching it happen instead of moving, etc. But, if you like the idea, by all means give it a shot. I'd only suggest that you use reflexes + feats + dex and wis. This is a little more balanced. Want another option? Allow players to take 10 on a Reflex save and use that as initiative instead of rolling. If they roll, they would likely get a higher score, but by taking 10 and using their reflexes, they are going to avoid going last. Food for thought -sayeth the mind flayer.