Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-06-05, 09:05 AM	I'm deciding that I'm going to make 2 new specific additions to D&D. One is specific kinds of clothing (Not anymore will anyone just wear a "Travelers Garments" in my Campaign), and also I'll be making a revised and researched version of the Old Comeliness Stat rules. Might need some help with ideas, but I think I'm going to have to make the interactions between each type of creature a little different. I've already started about 2 weeks ago, but I'm stuck on how I'll tweak how comeliness will affect certain monster types, though I'm thinking I'll split those groups into specific little categories in order to simplify and ungeneralize them UPDATE: In retrospect, "not everyone" will just wear "travellers garments" any more, just most of the NPC's and the PC's who want to have some customization of their character (Noone say, "Pimp My Character, please."). The interactions between each type of creature is now changed by a Creature "General Comeliness Modifier" Score, in which every creature has. See Post #12 for more details. I also think I'm going to do a system of where certain features of the body grant the persons comeliness score, which can also be covered up or accented by clothing, or body mods (tattoos, piercings, and the like). They now need to pick out how specifically their features grant their comeliness score. Only 1/3 of their comeliness score can be "buttoned up" by doing so, but can also be granted bonuses by certain types of clothing (tank tops, for instance). UPDATE: I'm not sure about the idea of having accentuation of certain body features by clothing anymore. Would take a little too long to get everything down, and would slow gameplay a little as well. I'm most likely thinking of having a possible modifier of that the character's clothing either has them at a comeliness score of 1 lower, or that they don't. As of now, I'm not even sure if this is okay to do. Stay tuned onto this. Clothing will be based off textile research articles, and will have different kinds of materials to be made out of, as well as having certain colors and having certain features, such as lace, pockets, cloth rings, zippers, buttons, Waterproofed, fire resistant, extrasoft, bleached, and the like. I'm also thinking about how to show the quality of such clothing by foregoing the normal-Masterwork system, and going into a low-Medium-Masterwork type system, similar to the system of how food is described in the PHB Equipment section. UPDATE: I'm still doing this, but I've barely even started doing this, see Post #26 for details. However, I've found a certain book that will most assuredly help me in this Homebrewed creation. Any suggestions, ideas, and/or thoughts about my sanity over this (since I'm sort of new to the world of Dm'ing at 2 months) to what I'm going to do, and perhaps even some help would be greatly appreciated at the moment. I'm already working on also historic weapons, and I thought that the clothing in the Arms & Equipment guide and older versions of D&D were a little... tiny. I thought that both adding comeliness and clothing would add a little flair and greater storytelling to my campaigns, but my time is Quickly running out, as my group has only played 2-4 sessions, and I'm moving to Florida in February (PST, Washington State). :eek: :confused: :weep: UPDATE: I'm still moving to Florida, and I'm still working on Historical weapons. I've got a little less on my plate, but homework is utter hell. Lastly, if anyone has any research tomes on textile manufacturing, how clothing is made, and the chemistry/physics of how clothing does what it does would greatly aid me. UPDATE: I've found a certain book in the library, as I've already said, but most of my data is still off the internet; I think I can go with what I've got right now, but still, I would benefit from them research tomes. And now, I must go back to work. I'll try to update as much as I can soon, but I'm not promising. UPDATE: Updated December 15th, 2005. Now I'm cooking with gas.
FriendoftheDork 12-06-05, 10:01 AM	For the clothing part make sure you and your players want the extra detail. I would hate having to go through pages of different clothing instead of just buying some set of clothes. The one I like best is the division in warhammer where you have rags, poor, common, good, best, noble clothing sets. This makes the clothes more adapted to social class. If the players want they sure can describe their clothing in any detail they want and know, and so can you as a DM, but forcing players to purchase every single piece of garment sounds tedious and unecessary. Og and I liked the one in arms and equipment guide. A little short, but it had the most important clothing. Comeliness... you gotta give me specifics for that.
starfire311 12-06-05, 10:48 AM	Clothing seems interesting, I was never one for dress up or playing with barbie dolls, so I am not sure if I would like that much detail to clothing. I think it could be a nice change of pace though. As for comeliness I would stay away from it as a stat... heck IMO a good looking person looks good no matter what they are wearing and sometimes even when wearing a plain concealing outfit they look better. I allow my players to decide how they look.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-06-05, 02:59 PM	As I see it, Comeliness is the distinctiveness, appeal, attractiveness, and overall image of the body. It, while being a measure of how good looking you are, is also how different you look from the rest of society. A hawkish-looking, thin, 1-legged Orc Dancer might have somewhat score that is up there, though it might be lower due to his uglyness. Quasimodo would look a bit low on Comeliness, but not Michael Jackson (due to his weird skin tone, odd voice, nose, and a bunch of other traits that I don't want to go into detail about). I'm not wanting to make it just the person's ability to look like a Supermodel, just merely how they would stand out and how receptive people who talk to them would be. As for the clothing, I'm a bit skittish about playing "Barbie," but I think that if I just add in the ability for some rules of how one's clothing would react (I don't want the focus of D&D to be changed to what they wear every second, just once in a while) to the elements, and what they would be. I'm not sure if I want to make an extra Player Table for this, but maybe. Also, I'm hoping to keep the sets of clothing, just to alleviate some of the stress if Players don't wanna go into their Wardrobe. I don't want to have the clothing get banged up on every twig, just so I can have my Players go to the tailor every second on me, nor do I want to go into the history of fashion. I just want some detail about what the character looks like if someone asks or I think they should know.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-06-05, 03:16 PM	Sorry for the second post, but, if someone dropped their comeliness score to 0, what would happen to them? I thought this A comeliness score of 0 means that the character has a physically withdrawn look, looking like they have lost severe weight, and generally not looking well at all. They cannot feel anything from their senses as those aren't working anymore. The character may move, but only with 1 standard action per round (as a Zombie), and are physically helpless. They are blind, deaf, unable to feel, smell, or taste anything, even if they normally can under normal circumstances. I also have the conditions for where Comeliness can be applied: Comeliness doubles along with Cha for the Perform skills (average the modifiers out), can be added to the Intimidation skill (when taken with a feat), can be added onto the Bluff skill normally, and can help with the Handle Animal skill (add ˝ of Comeliness modifier to the skill, round down). It can also partially help with Diplomacy (add ˝ Comeliness to skill modifier, and add), but if the person is attracted to you. If the person doesn’t like you, for each step, starting from Unfriendly down, add a cumulative -1 penalty, up towards a maximum of -2 (or -3). The Use of Comeliness is either the simple matters of being generally attractive and visually pretty overall, or using it in Seductive means. With Gather Information, the Comeliness modifier can aid people, and, for sense motive, can be also used to boost their roll as well with a feat. I still have to get the attraction skills and how each type of creature affects the attempt to seduce, but meh... Also, on another note, I am unsure about what Comeliness is like, since it is both the distinctiveness, AND the attractiveness of one's appearance. I might need some help with this here. Also, I am going to add the clothing from the Arms and Equipment guide into the Clothing rules, since they're a starting point for where I'll go further. Any more suggestions WILL be appreciated.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-06-05, 03:28 PM	As for comeliness I would stay away from it as a stat... heck IMO a good looking person looks good no matter what they are wearing and sometimes even when wearing a plain concealing outfit they look better. I allow my players to decide how they look. Actually, I think you're a little right about how even a plain, concealing outfit can make people look better. Scratch that idea about the clothing accentuating comeliness, all it would do would be to make my life a little harder than it already is, and wouldn't be even very much. Perhaps 1 or 2 magic items would be able to raise comeliness, but that would be it. And, no, I'm not going to make many of those. Too difficult what with all this work and school combined.
ChimericalWolf 12-06-05, 04:53 PM	To be quite honest, I think in this case, we're looking at too much work for too little benefit. Let the players who care about clothing describe their new outfit every few sessions, have leads come to them as they shop for a new belt. Maybe a merchant friend wants them to discover why all the elven silk has been disappearing, and will reward them with nifty new clothes when they solve things. If the players (or you) care about appearance, don't make a stat you have to roll for every time they meet someone, just make the occasional NPC that cares about a player's looks. The barmaid is particularly taken with the dashing elf wizard/rogue's good fashion sense. Or a bunch of street kids make fun of the half orc's raggedy patchwork armor and unkempt hair. To me, all this is a strictly roleplaying affair, and you don't need to bring dice and stats into it.
SuperTKO 12-09-05, 03:30 AM	They way I do appearance in my game is reletively simple. Have them roll just as they would any other stat, if the class get's a -2 CHR, then so do COM. There are not to many things that have low Charisma that would also have exceptionally good looks. Dwarves are small and stocky, have hair on thier chest and butts... Some people might find them attractive, but the over all population would think they aren't as hot as Humanoids. And Nymphs and Succubi have a +6 to Comeliness. Comeliness represents an overall attractiveness in a character. Thier Maximum Comeliness is what occurs when they are naked. For example. Remember Queen Brahne off of FFIX? She had Royal clothes on, but she was still ugly, now take the clothes off, and... Wait a sec, I'm proving myself wrong... But Comeliness is just a measure of a characters outer beauty. That's all. Clothes don't really do anything to make someone look better. A girl may be attracted to my $200 Baby Skin Shoes, but that's because I know how to live in comfort, and I have money, not because I actually look good. There is really no benefit to Apperance, but if you want to hear my house rule, pretty much every number would make it go up a modifier (12, 14, 16, etc.) Players get that to Charisma Checks on the opposite sex if you feel that the NPC is shallow (like the town bard, gaurd, etc.) Good for things like Bards and Such, but it's not crazy gamebreaking. Make up is really the only item that can boost comeliness, and it's usable only by females. Make-up provides a Disguise bonus to females who can make a disguise check (DC 15) for a +2, and (DC 30) for a +4. As for clothing, it doesn't matter, as someone said before, let the players that care do, and those who don't, don't. For those that don't, ask "What's on underneath your armor?" and if they say "Tanning Lotion", make them buy a set of commoners clothes.
Tenzhi 12-09-05, 03:47 AM	Comeliness is one of the worst ideas for an abillity score, IMO. You are essentially assigning a number to the viewee's appearance that is really dependent on the viewer's perception and tastes. Kind of like saying a five-star movie will be five-stars for anyone who watches it. Beauty, as the saying goes, is in the eye of the beholder (who, incidentally for the person relating Comeliness to Charisma, get a substantial Charisma bonus), not the appearance of the beholden.
Quirriff 12-09-05, 04:34 AM	Well I'm not sure if it would have any ingame effects, because NPC reactions are more controlled by the DM now and there are no Uber bonus' for having high ability scores (aboth 18) anymore, such as Immunity to illusions (inteligence) and Powerful Awe (charisma), and immunity to various spells (Wisdom), or Regeneration (constitution), so the Fascinate power would be wrong also. Here's what I would do have players roll a d20 or 3d6, record the number Adjust it accordingly, and keep the adjusted score and the unadjusted score for yourself to adjudicate NPC reactions. For example: In respect to Humans: Halflings: +0 Gnomes: -1 Dwarves: -1 Half-Orcs: -2 Half-Elves: +1 Elves: +2 Orcs: -4 In respect to Dwarves: Humans: +0 (+1 if they have a beard) Halflings: -1 (+0 if they have a beard) Gnomes: +0 Elves: -2 Half-Elves: -1 Half-Orcs: -1 Orcs: -3 In Respect to Elves: Humans: +0 Halflings: +0 Gnomes: -1 Half-Elves: +0 Dwarves: -2 Half-Orcs: -2 Orcs: -5 In respect to Half-Elves: Humans: +0 Halflings: +0 Gnomes: -1 Dwarves: -1 Half-Orcs: -2 Elves: +1 Orcs: -4 Of course you can also factor in Classes, but I think that has to depend on the NPCs attitude toward those classes, for example a Wizard might find the Barbarian ugly (stuck up upper class wizards), even though he finds the Druid attractive, even though they would both be the same race and have the same unadjusted comliness scores, and the Druid would find the Barbarian more attractive because they have a more open mind and understand the natural aspect of a barbarian.
Tenzhi 12-09-05, 04:59 AM	In respect to Humans: Halflings: +0 Gnomes: -1 Dwarves: -1 Half-Orcs: -2 Half-Elves: +1 Elves: +2 Orcs: -4 I'm a human, and I disagree with that table. Halflings should get a +2, gnomes a +0, half-elves a -1, and elves a -2. That's the problem with beauty, it's completely subjective.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-09-05, 08:34 AM	In effect, this is what I did: General Comeliness Familiarity is the score of which each species has that determines how well they are seen as by other races, and how the racial adjustments should accordingly be changed. If a particular species has a particular score, and the other species has a different score, then that species when trying to deal with the second one will have a circumstantial bonus or penalty to their score due to a difference of scores. Various areas or regions can have differing average Comeliness Familiarity scores, depending on various factors in evolution, or their just plain preferences of beauty. On another hand, if the targeted species has fewer inhibitions concerning a particular race, subtype, or category, the penalties or bonuses of the average comeliness familiarity score can be negated. While this score is the general score of the species compared to everyone else, it does not represent a specific creatures ACTUAL score, unless they are in fact with an average comeliness score of ten. For a creature with the same General Comeliness Modifier Score and Comeliness stat, the circumstantial modifier for dealing with another race will have their modifier, whether a penalty or a bonus, reduced by 1, due to them being an average specimen of that particular race to the race that they are dealing with. Examples: 1. Take, for instance Katrina, the Level 1 Human Bard with a comeliness score of 18, and Sulerain, a 1st level Elf Sorceror with 15 comeliness. Katrina starts talking to Sulerain at an Inn, and, because it is hard to talk without having a mouth, naturally has to walk over to Sulerain and start talking. Sulerain, being the elf-boy he is, notices Katrina walking over to him, his Elf-boy vision seeing this (to a human) gorgeous woman walking over. Through out the entire scene, he talks to Katrina, who is VERY distinctive, and very beautiful, to any human. To Sulerain the Elf-boy, however, whose race of elves has a General Comeliness Modifier score of 13 compared to Katrina’s Race’s General Modifier score of 10, has the idea that Human Women are a little less cute and good looking than some of the average Elven ladies he knows. Due to the humans around the general area of this inn having the General Comeliness Score of 10, and the Elves around the General area of the inn having the Comeliness Modifier score of 13, Katrina sees elves as being more good looking than the average human around here, while Sulerain sees them as a little less good looking. To Sulerain and his own kind, he has 15 comeliness, but to Katrina, a Human female, he has a circumstantial bonus of +3 (gained by the following Equation: [MCGCS-TGCS=Modifier], where GCS is the General Comeliness Familiarity score, MC is the score of the Main Character who is acting on the Target Character, T). Sulerain’s score of [13GCS-10GCS] gains the modifier of +3. To Sulerain, Katrina has the score of 15 [18S+(10GCS-13GCS)] to Sulerain. 2. Another Instance would be if Katrina was an Elf, instead of a Human, with a comeliness score of 10. Sulerain, seeing this Comeliness score 10 Elf woman, wouldn’t mind having her as company, but would definitely not say that she would be the fairest of them all, as she just has a comeliness score of 10 without any racial modifiers. 3. If an Orc Woman named Thumbelina, with a Comeliness score of 10, and a Racial Comeliness Modifier score of 5, due to the Orcs being a little more than ugly in this part of the region, tried to talk to Sulerain, he would see (Since this guy has no idea of how to treat a lady, no matter how much she looks like ass) an Orc woman with the Comeliness Score of 2 [10+(5-13)=2] , While Thumbelina would see a drop-dead gorgeous, distinctive, Elf-boy with a Comeliness score of 23 (15Com+(13RCom-5)=23]. 4. Lastly, if Katrina, who is from the Region of Turan, (Gen Comeliness Mod. Score=10) meets Natalia, from Suran, a place that normally has people that are more good looking, (GCMS=11), and who has a Comeliness score of 11, would see Katrina with a comeliness score of 17 [18C+(10GCMS2-11GCMS1)=17], while Katrina would see a Comeliness 11 Woman from Suran [11C+(11GCMS2-10GCMS1)+1=11], because to Katrina, Natalia is an average creature of the Human region of Suran. I'm currently doing the General Comeliness scores of every creature in the Monster Manual, Monster Manual III, and the Hero's of Horror book. I've finished the Heros of Horror General Comeliness Mod Scores, but don't have anything that would suggest a score for a creature of a differing region or genetic structure. Please give critical thoughts of this, and perhaps some ideas.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-09-05, 08:41 AM	Comeliness is one of the worst ideas for an abillity score, IMO. You are essentially assigning a number to the viewee's appearance that is really dependent on the viewer's perception and tastes. Kind of like saying a five-star movie will be five-stars for anyone who watches it. Beauty, as the saying goes, is in the eye of the beholder (who, incidentally for the person relating Comeliness to Charisma, get a substantial Charisma bonus), not the appearance of the beholden. Then, what if there was a comeliness variable that changes with the persons perception (Wisdom)? Kind of like rolling a d20 towards a willsave or a Wisdom Check (or perhaps a perform skill check that isn't a Trained only skill)? Hrm... The study of Aesthetics is really harder to put into D&D terms than I thought.
Xeviat-DM 12-09-05, 04:43 PM	Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. Just because a monster is ugly to us doesn't mean it's comeliness score would be low. Likewise, certain body modifications might make you look good to one person, but not another: my punk friends like certain piercings on women, but I don't (just an example). Once again, as I've said it before, I think that physical appearance has to do with physical stats: having a comeliness score doesn't seem to add anything to the game. Here's a quick way to look at looks: your strength makes you larger, both in height and in width, and makes your muscles more developed; your dexterity score makes you leaner (and thus high strength, high dex people will have more defined muscles or be more tonned), and may reduce your size (a low str high dex person tends to be short and thin); high con people are healthier and recover from injury better, so they have less acne and scars, and won't have odd growths (which you may expect in someone with a low con, developing cancer). Thus, to make it easier, your looks stat could be the average of all of your physical scores. Generally the higher, the better. This can be embellished or disguised with clothing and body art, and will be accented or hurt by your charisma score. Your Comeliness would only really apply to creatures of your type though, unless they're into that cross species thing.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 05:09 PM	Comliness would have game balance issues if you assign ability scores or use point buy. You give players an extra roll to use in whatever score they want, or more points. But that don't care will just take an 8 or 10, and have more points to spend elsewhere. It sounds like even more of a dump stat than Charisma, and that already bothers me when a player uses it as a dump. I think a character should more or less be able to look how a player wants him to. If she needs a mechanical advantage for it, have them take a feat (or trait if you use those rules). Probably best to say you can only take it at first level. Also Xeviat's right, to some degree your general attractiveness will be based on your physique. I prefer to disassociate Charisma and appearance, but your bearing and attitude will affect how people see you, as well.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-09-05, 07:58 PM	Comeliness would have game balance issues if you assign ability scores or use point buy. You give players an extra roll to use in whatever score they want, or more points. But that don't care will just take an 8 or 10, and have more points to spend elsewhere. It sounds like even more of a dump stat than Charisma, and that already bothers me when a player uses it as a dump. Okay, then what if Comeliness is changed to be a stat that is rolled seperately, just to make it less of a dump stat? To make it less of a dump stat, then there's gotta be less of an issue to use it as one. Perhaps some incentive. Certain spells needing a certain comeliness, perhaps? Spell-like abilities(Only for Comeliness, that is it, and even those spells should be kind of weak)? I'd like to add this to my rules, and this would be hard, though. I think a character should more or less be able to look how a player wants him to. If she needs a mechanical advantage for it, have them take a feat (or trait if you use those rules). Probably best to say you can only take it at first level. For rolling, I'm letting them be able to roll it again, if they don't like the roll, but that is a problem. Comeliness isn't just an attractiveness stat, it's showing how powerful your image is, how distinctive, how well proportioned, how aesthetically "perfect" you are as a whole in average to other races, possibly how well matched you are to others of your race, and possibly how ideal you are to somebody. It's could be more of a stat that in a way is the outside's general perception of the player's character. And a feat, I feel, would just be too arbitrary, allowing some, but not others, to have a bonus to their score as they have a "Special ability." Not to say that it's bad, but I'd like the idea that if everyone just had something that was common between each other, then a waste of a potential needy feat would be warrented. Also Xeviat's right, to some degree your general attractiveness will be based on your physique. I prefer to disassociate Charisma and appearance, but your bearing and attitude will affect how people see you, as well. I'm thinking that it's how well those parts of the physique are placed. Placing muscles willy-nilly on a person, like one of those Body-Builders doesn't exactly look very comely to somebody, now would they? Wisdom is more applicable, along with intelligence, but I've already seen a version of the Comeliness rules like that somewhere else. I'd like to add it in, but I want something a little more tailored to the person as the main ruleset. Not to mean that I won't put it in as a Variant. I'm thinking that full clothing will dampen the persons comeliness by 1 (or allievate it), unless they take a trait or feat, and having skimpy clothing, or just being fully nude brings them to their full score as an optional rule. Also, to say, I like many of the suggestions and critical thinkings of the posters here, thanks. Keep it up! :D
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-09-05, 08:07 PM	Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. Just because a monster is ugly to us doesn't mean it's comeliness score would be low. Likewise, certain body modifications might make you look good to one person, but not another: my punk friends like certain piercings on women, but I don't (just an example). Then, there has to be something that affects what people find good, and what people find tacky. percentile die, perhaps? Thus, to make it easier, your looks stat could be the average of all of your physical scores. Generally the higher, the better. This can be embellished or disguised with clothing and body art, and will be accented or hurt by your charisma score. Your Comeliness would only really apply to creatures of your type though, unless they're into that cross species thing. I've seen this on another comeliness house rule, and I think it should be an optional rule. See the previous post for details. Embellishment and disguising, along with accentuation and hurting of charisma, seems worth it, but the embellishing/disguising by using clothing might be a little too much to go into. But body art might be good to consider as a helper or hider of one's comeliness.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 08:23 PM	Okay, then what if Comeliness is changed to be a stat that is rolled seperately, just to make it less of a dump stat? To make it less of a dump stat, then there's gotta be less of an issue to use it as one. Perhaps some incentive. Certain spells needing a certain comeliness, perhaps? Spell-like abilities(Only for Comeliness, that is it, and even those spells should be kind of weak)? I'd like to add this to my rules, and this would be hard, though. I had a DM that once did something along this line. I don't really think it added anything to the game, and he didn't do it in his next game. My group (lately) has gotten away from rolling stats because one player will simply wind up luckier than another. Of course, the counterargument will go, that life is like that. I think the point the argument misses, however, is people don't play roleplaying games to play life. They want something that is fair, and experience where they can be who they want, not who circumstance and nature made them. I do not ever intend to go back to rolling ability scores in games I run, but other DMs have strong feelings the other way. If you let them re-roll if unhappy, then it defeats the purpose of rolling in the first place. May as well let them set it how they want. What's to stop everyone from having an 18? Well, assuming you're players all actually want to play beauty queens, I guess nothing. But unless they somehow have to pay for the ability, there's no reason that many might not want that. I'm thinking that it's how well those parts of the physique are placed. Placing muscles willy-nilly on a person, like one of those Body-Builders doesn't exactly look very comely to somebody, now would they? Wisdom is more applicable, along with intelligence, but I've already seen a version of the Comeliness rules like that somewhere else. I'd like to add it in, but I want something a little more tailored to the person as the main ruleset. Not to mean that I won't put it in as a Variant. I'm thinking that full clothing will dampen the persons comeliness by 1 (or allievate it), unless they take a trait or feat, and having skimpy clothing, or just being fully nude brings them to their full score as an optional rule. :rofl: An image of muscles placed willy-nilly runs through my head like a bad pop-eye cartoon. I don't really think that happens, however, if you were serious. I did not actually mean that a trait would raise an ability score, rather that it would give whatever mechanical bonus having a high value in Comliness would have given. If you intend to link spell-like abilities off this score, then it opens a whole new range of possibilities, and it might work. But if you're not somehow paying for a score that does something, then everyone that can use will max it. If you do have to pay, then everyone who doesn't mechanically use it will not want to have pay for it. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-09-05, 09:07 PM	If you intend to link spell-like abilities off this score, then it opens a whole new range of possibilities, and it might work. But if you're not somehow paying for a score that does something, then everyone that can use will max it. If you do have to pay, then everyone who doesn't mechanically use it will not want to have pay for it. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong. The problem is, what? I don't want the possibilities of having a PC have a Supernatural ability just because they put a lot of points into one stat. I'd say it would be better to have some Player ability to mold the interaction to other NPC's, that would even then be kind of pushing it. Just something that would help a TINY bit in interacting with others. They could be something that HAS to be tacked onto their specific skillsets, even if they're bad. It's kind of tough luck for the Orcs, though, who have to go a little further to get animals on their good side, but, then again, animals don't have any research suggesting that they care as much about humans as they do themselves, but eh. While it's more of a touchup for people, comeliness is a bit of a stat that I'd like to put into moderation with the other stats, not have something that is overpowering over the other stats. It should have a say if making comeliness a stat would work. The question is, how?
Tenzhi 12-09-05, 11:26 PM	Then, there has to be something that affects what people find good, and what people find tacky. There is - quite simply, it's called personal taste and it isn't universally definable nor random for any given person.
Xeviat-DM 12-10-05, 04:24 AM	Body builders with muscles willy nilly have a low dex score generally speaking, and they may even have a low con if they've been fooling around with 'roids. Your standard person will find someone with balanced ability scores more attractive than someone with unbalanced scores, and the person with the higher scores as well. Some standard diversions are likely; men are quite likely to find women with lower strengths attractive, but I'm speaking of 12 vs. 18; a 6 strength is a very scrawny person, and bony woman probably isn't very "sexy". Women are likely to find me with higher strengths more attractive, but an incredibly overbalanced strength (22 str, 10 con, 6 dex) probably looks bad. And yes, charisma affects your appearance. Someone with a high charisma will hold themselves better; you can see that even in a photo (but a photo might just be a good use of the disguise skill, acting like you have high charisma). Someone with low charisma probably has low self esteem, or is crass, so they aren't going to look as good. Someone with a high charisma but lower physical scores, might look as good as or even better than someone with high physical scores but low charisma. But comparing both of their soulless corpses will show you that the high physical stat person is more atractive (I am not condoning necrophillia, just to let you know). Oh and by the way, Tenzhi, you might want to get that halfling love looked at. :P PS: If the posters here are all mature enough, I'll go a little further. Enjoying the appearance of high physical ability scores is good for the offspring, that's why it's going to be the norm. Now there are "deviant" attractions (I won't go into too much detail since this isn't the mature boards, but Tenzhi's halfling joke could be indicitive of one such devience). Some people may like lower physical scores, and thus the "uglies", because they're abusive and are looking to take advantage of someone; just like someone might go for a low charisma, low self esteem person. Such a person is more vulnerable, and thus can be taken advantage of more. For instance, an Orc chieftan might collect human women with low strength and dexterity scores, because it's easier for him to take advantage of them (they can't escape "grapples" as easily). But his mate or mates are sure as heck going to be prime physical, and possibly even mental, specimines, because he wants his sons to be powerful. All in all, I think your introduction of a comliness score requires so many situational modifiers that you might as well drop it. In a world with such varied creatures, you're going to have very varied tastes. There might be a woman out there who would swoon for a Balor's sweet nothings, or a man who thinks carion crawlers are the hottest thing since the sun. You never know.
Tenzhi 12-10-05, 04:32 AM	Oh and by the way, Tenzhi, you might want to get that halfling love looked at. :P I can't STOP looking at it, especially when it involves kender-girls. :drools: :D
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-11-05, 09:56 PM	All in all, I think your introduction of a comliness score requires so many situational modifiers that you might as well drop it. In a world with such varied creatures, you're going to have very varied tastes. There might be a woman out there who would swoon for a Balor's sweet nothings, or a man who thinks carion crawlers are the hottest thing since the sun. You never know. If there are so many weird tastes of people, why not just let a Percentile die handle the weirdness? If people can be wooed by comeliness by the weirdest of requirements, why not just let something similar to a turning check or a percentile die do the work, making life easier?
starfire311 12-12-05, 09:04 AM	Then, there has to be something that affects what people find good, and what people find tacky. percentile die, perhaps? Why does everything have to be attached to a die roll, this is an RPG people, use your imagination and RP these things out, let players decide how they look, and you as the DM decide if the NPCs like how they look. Even if the NPCs like how they look, it can still be botched with some really poor charsma, or even poor intelligence or wisdom or poor RPing. IRL Some people really like how bodybuilders look, other don't some people like the odd body piercing some people don't some people like really fat people some people don't. Everyone is different, these are all ripe oppurtunities to RP it out.
starfire311 12-12-05, 09:14 AM	There is - quite simply, it's called personal taste and it isn't universally definable nor random for any given person. Exactly ... it is not random it is definable and for a reason... tenzhi likes the kender girls... why would you roll for him everytime he sees a kender girl to see if she is attractive to him. You know the answer is yes, the only question remains is how much, and even that will not be random, there will be certain traits that he finds more attractive than others and this will be accross the board for all kenders, perhaps he likes longer hair over short hair, so he will be more attracted to the long hairs. But for tenzhi there would be no chance that he would find say an orc more attractive than any kender(this is just an example, please excuse me if yo like the orcs too) So, there would be no need for a die roll or randomness. As for applying this to games you as the DM decide on the traits of the NPCs, this can be a spur of the moment decision or it can be predefined notes that you may have on the NPCs traits. One of those traits could be NPC "Joe Barbar" Notes: Has +2 Clippers, lives above the shoppe, spends after hours time at the tavern, likes fat chicks.
Pz.Az.04Maus 12-15-05, 07:02 AM	Now, for something a little different than usual, the traits of clothing: Types of Clothing: -Undergarments (Underwear, just simply underwear. And socks, don't forget them socks.) -normal effects ( IE: T-shirts, Jerkins, Tunics, Tabards, pants, kilts, etc) -Armor/protective gear (This shouldn't be hard.) -Accessories (detachable earrings, handbags, backpacks, occasional cell-phone :eek: , etc) -Environmental effects (coats, jackets, cold weather gear, winter-jacket enviro-shells, firesuits, diving gear, etc) -Body Modifications (piercings, earrings, tattoos, -=CLOTHING ARTICLE TRAITS=- -Name of Article -Cost -general Lengths/Widths of article -clothing materials (including materials of the additions) -additions/Ornamentation/Designs (lace, jewels, buckles, buttons, etc) -“Cut” (How the clothing fits, what general shape/form the clothing takes to the body) [b]Definitions of "Cut" (dictionary.com):-The style in which a garment is cut: a suit of traditional cut. -To form or shape by or as if by cutting. -Chemistry/Fabric Characteristics (fireproofness, water resistance, "Quik-dry," waterproof, stain resistance, stain repellancy, etc) -general “Wear” (how the clothing fits to the body, how the clothing feels)(Soft, itchy, smooth, rough, the list goes on.) -How Clothing is worn (by Character) - covered anatomy (what covers what) -General state of clothing (good, bad, etc) -Craftsmanship of article of clothing(good, bad, etc) -Hardness, HP, Break DC, the normal D&D Jazz. I haven't done as much for clothing as I have the Comeliness stat. I'm thinking of skipping the "One-size-fits-all" part of how comeliness is augmented by clothing, instead letting the NPC's have their likes and dislikes, and hoping to catch on to what the Players/Characters have as their own likes/dislikes.