Concentration .. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concentration .. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Ditto
06-15-07, 09:58 AM I was just thinking .. (dangerous - I know ..)
... I've seen/heard people "complain" about skills like Concentration (and tumble ... but I'll "concentrate" on Concentration for this one ..)

The main concern seems to be that by 5-10th level, it's pretty "easy" and straight forward for a caster to be able to make their Concentration check to cast defensively ...

Well, what about if we alter it abit .. rather than make it "automatic" ... what if the concentration roll did something like add to your AC ??

Before you panic at that ... keep in mind it would:

1) add to you AC only vs the AoOs that you would be drawing ... not for the remainder of the round ....
2) the fact it adds an "obscenely high" value to your AC isn't a real balance issue ... it might be "near impossible" to hit you .. but you will still be hit 1 out of every 20 times ... regardless of how high your check is (compared to 0 out of 20 if you check is high enough).

By attaching it to AC, you kind of get an "opposed check" ...

I suppose this idea could work for Tumble as well .. or any other "automatic" success type skill checks.

If you think it's adding too much, we could add the check result - 10 (just a number ... kinda of a way of not double adding the base 10 AC, and the base roll - which averages 10 ..) *shrug*

Just a thought ... opinions?
(note: I don't have a real problem myself with tumble or concentrate .. this is just me thinking out loud .. not really suggesting that I'm trying to fix something ... it's just a thought exercise ... :tiphat: )
Arcade
06-15-07, 01:31 PM Interesting idea. I think it pretty much causes the same problem, it just adds the 1 in 20 failure chance in there. By 5th level, your AC will boost by 10 (given a +2 ability bonus) with an extra d20 to boot. given that you needed to roll an 8 to cast a 3rd level spell defensively, that same amount will give you +18 to AC which will mean most people will need a 20 to hit you anyway. With a very few exceptions, the same roll which succeeded so easily in the normal concentration check will still succeed by virute of having such a high AC.

At low levels, it's worse. A level 1 wizard maybe has a 60% chance to cast defensively. Using this rule, those odds will go up.

I like the idea, just not sure about the implementation. And if the wizard does get hit, is it an automatic failure, or do they get another spellcheck to see if they can maintain concentration when being damaged?
Dotac
06-15-07, 02:35 PM One house rule i'm currently testing is thus:

DC to cast defensively= 10 + spell level + highest BAB of whoever is threatening you.

If a fighter who knows how to use his sword is threatening you, it should be harder to cast defensively than if a wizard that doesn't even know how to use the spiked chain he his holding happens to be within 10 ft of you.

Also, under this system, i make the feat mage slayer simply add 4 to your effective BAB when threatening a caster, such that a wizard with combat casting (+4) will cancel out your bonus from mage slayer, if you have it.

i haven't been using it long enough to really say how well this will work, but i am optimistic.
Pathanus
06-16-07, 08:39 PM An enemy of a spellcaster can always use his action to ready an attack during spell casting, forcing the caster to make a second Concentration check or lose the spell, DC 10 + damage taken.
The_Ditto
06-20-07, 01:57 PM And if the wizard does get hit, is it an automatic failure, or do they get another spellcheck to see if they can maintain concentration when being damaged?

normal: you get damaged, you make a concentration check ... I'm not touching that one .. :tiphat:
The_Ditto
06-21-07, 07:47 AM Hmm, ok, got to thinking .. about both my original "idea" and what Dotac posted ..

What about this idea:

Casting Defensively: Make a Concentration check normally (DC = 15 + spell level - normally) ... and if you make it .. rather than avoiding all AoOs automagically ... it grants either:

a) your skill modifier to your AC.
or
b) what you rolled - 15 - spell level to your AC.

In other words.
If I have a +12 to Concentration.

and I roll an 8 ... I get a result of 20.
That makes the concentration check for trying to cast fireball (3rd level spell: DC = 15+3 = 18)

Because it was successful, we:

a) add +12 to your AC (skill modifier - not the roll)
or
b) add +2 to your AC (the difference).

Personally, I think option (b) isn't strong enough for the caster ... it's almost never going to be worthwhile to cast defensively, because opponent's will still hit fairly often ...

I think option (a) adds an interesting element to the game.

why?

a) it rewards those who have invested in concentration, without providing a 100% guarantee ...
b) opponent's (especially those really skilled - ie high BaB) have an increased chance of tagging the mage ... (ie no need to turn it into an opposed check)
c) doesn't really add any complexity ... you're making the check anyway, then just adding your modifier (ie no math) to your AC .. (addition is easy - usually :rolleyes: ).

Thoughts?

(As mentioned before, I suppose this could also be applied to Tumble, or any other "auto skill - no AoO" type skill ... not that I can think of any others than Concentration and Tumble ... ) :D
Arcade
06-21-07, 08:54 AM The more I think about this, I wonder if the attacker's bonus is not the right way to handle this opposed check. For instance, many creatures have high attack bonuses due to their size and strength, and it has nothing to do with their skill at arms. A wizard facing a giant can have big problems here. Especially at higher levels where the wizard's AC is normally so low that these rolls might not be enough to help out that much. A level 15 wizard might only have an AC of 18, and with a concentration roll bumping them up to the 40's, you'll find a lot of fighters at that level are going to hit that without too much trouble (level 15 barbarian: BAB +15, strength +11, magic weapon +4 = +30). But maybe that's what you want ...

I think this needs to be a check possibly based on BAB where you get to add 1+Dex modifier if you have Combat Reflexes. Make a concentration check against this number (probably with some modifier). If you succeed, you don't suffer attacks of opportunity from that attacker.
Cheza
06-21-07, 12:59 PM Casting Defensively: Make a Concentration check normally (DC = 15 + spell level - normally) ... and if you make it .. rather than avoiding all AoOs automagically ... it grants either:

a) your skill modifier to your AC.
or
b) what you rolled - 15 - spell level to your AC
So what you want is to get your AC bonuses into your concentration check. :P

The normal rule for concentration:

Decide if you wish to cast defensively
1.a) If you do not cast defensively
Your opponent get's an attack of opportunity against your AC. You have to make a Concentration check against the damage dealt to still cast normally.

1.b) If you cast defensively, you try to prevent an AoO.

So what you want, is to mix both things up. Your opponent still has to waste his AoO for that round to nearly never hit. You can do that by replacing your AC with the result of your skill check (you have to take it even if it's worse). However you do not get the second check to ignore the damage.
The_Ditto
06-22-07, 08:43 AM So what you want, is to mix both things up.

Sort of ... ;)

Your opponent still has to waste his AoO for that round to nearly never hit.

well, maybe not "waste" ... after all it's always your choice to take the AoO ... but if you see the Mage "defensive casting", you might think "Hmm, he may be too hard to hit at this point, maybe I'll save my AoO ... "
or you're going to think "That's ok, I've got a high enough attack anyway, I should be able to tag him .. I'll take it."

it just removes the "Automatic: no AoO vs me just because I made an easy skill check".
Sure, at higher levels the mage is going to "always" add his concentration skill to his AC .. but at those levels .. as has been pointed out ... alot of critters are still going to tag you ...

You can do that by replacing your AC with the result of your skill check (you have to take it even if it's worse).

Hmm, that's an idea as well, but it doesn't offer enough protection for the mage ... I'm not trying to totally hose the mage .. replacing the AC with the roll *would* totally hose the mage ...

However you do not get the second check to ignore the damage.

This would also totally hose the mage .. again, something I'm trying not to do ... just make it a bit more "challenging" and not so "automatic" ...

:tiphat:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 06-15-07, 09:58 AM	I was just thinking .. (dangerous - I know ..) ... I've seen/heard people "complain" about skills like Concentration (and tumble ... but I'll "concentrate" on Concentration for this one ..) The main concern seems to be that by 5-10th level, it's pretty "easy" and straight forward for a caster to be able to make their Concentration check to cast defensively ... Well, what about if we alter it abit .. rather than make it "automatic" ... what if the concentration roll did something like add to your AC ?? Before you panic at that ... keep in mind it would: 1) add to you AC only vs the AoOs that you would be drawing ... not for the remainder of the round .... 2) the fact it adds an "obscenely high" value to your AC isn't a real balance issue ... it might be "near impossible" to hit you .. but you will still be hit 1 out of every 20 times ... regardless of how high your check is (compared to 0 out of 20 if you check is high enough). By attaching it to AC, you kind of get an "opposed check" ... I suppose this idea could work for Tumble as well .. or any other "automatic" success type skill checks. If you think it's adding too much, we could add the check result - 10 (just a number ... kinda of a way of not double adding the base 10 AC, and the base roll - which averages 10 ..) shrug Just a thought ... opinions? (note: I don't have a real problem myself with tumble or concentrate .. this is just me thinking out loud .. not really suggesting that I'm trying to fix something ... it's just a thought exercise ... :tiphat: )
Arcade 06-15-07, 01:31 PM	Interesting idea. I think it pretty much causes the same problem, it just adds the 1 in 20 failure chance in there. By 5th level, your AC will boost by 10 (given a +2 ability bonus) with an extra d20 to boot. given that you needed to roll an 8 to cast a 3rd level spell defensively, that same amount will give you +18 to AC which will mean most people will need a 20 to hit you anyway. With a very few exceptions, the same roll which succeeded so easily in the normal concentration check will still succeed by virute of having such a high AC. At low levels, it's worse. A level 1 wizard maybe has a 60% chance to cast defensively. Using this rule, those odds will go up. I like the idea, just not sure about the implementation. And if the wizard does get hit, is it an automatic failure, or do they get another spellcheck to see if they can maintain concentration when being damaged?
Dotac 06-15-07, 02:35 PM	One house rule i'm currently testing is thus: DC to cast defensively= 10 + spell level + highest BAB of whoever is threatening you. If a fighter who knows how to use his sword is threatening you, it should be harder to cast defensively than if a wizard that doesn't even know how to use the spiked chain he his holding happens to be within 10 ft of you. Also, under this system, i make the feat mage slayer simply add 4 to your effective BAB when threatening a caster, such that a wizard with combat casting (+4) will cancel out your bonus from mage slayer, if you have it. i haven't been using it long enough to really say how well this will work, but i am optimistic.
Pathanus 06-16-07, 08:39 PM	An enemy of a spellcaster can always use his action to ready an attack during spell casting, forcing the caster to make a second Concentration check or lose the spell, DC 10 + damage taken.
The_Ditto 06-20-07, 01:57 PM	And if the wizard does get hit, is it an automatic failure, or do they get another spellcheck to see if they can maintain concentration when being damaged? normal: you get damaged, you make a concentration check ... I'm not touching that one .. :tiphat:
The_Ditto 06-21-07, 07:47 AM	Hmm, ok, got to thinking .. about both my original "idea" and what Dotac posted .. What about this idea: Casting Defensively: Make a Concentration check normally (DC = 15 + spell level - normally) ... and if you make it .. rather than avoiding all AoOs automagically ... it grants either: a) your skill modifier to your AC. or b) what you rolled - 15 - spell level to your AC. In other words. If I have a +12 to Concentration. and I roll an 8 ... I get a result of 20. That makes the concentration check for trying to cast fireball (3rd level spell: DC = 15+3 = 18) Because it was successful, we: a) add +12 to your AC (skill modifier - not the roll) or b) add +2 to your AC (the difference). Personally, I think option (b) isn't strong enough for the caster ... it's almost never going to be worthwhile to cast defensively, because opponent's will still hit fairly often ... I think option (a) adds an interesting element to the game. why? a) it rewards those who have invested in concentration, without providing a 100% guarantee ... b) opponent's (especially those really skilled - ie high BaB) have an increased chance of tagging the mage ... (ie no need to turn it into an opposed check) c) doesn't really add any complexity ... you're making the check anyway, then just adding your modifier (ie no math) to your AC .. (addition is easy - usually :rolleyes: ). Thoughts? (As mentioned before, I suppose this could also be applied to Tumble, or any other "auto skill - no AoO" type skill ... not that I can think of any others than Concentration and Tumble ... ) :D
Arcade 06-21-07, 08:54 AM	The more I think about this, I wonder if the attacker's bonus is not the right way to handle this opposed check. For instance, many creatures have high attack bonuses due to their size and strength, and it has nothing to do with their skill at arms. A wizard facing a giant can have big problems here. Especially at higher levels where the wizard's AC is normally so low that these rolls might not be enough to help out that much. A level 15 wizard might only have an AC of 18, and with a concentration roll bumping them up to the 40's, you'll find a lot of fighters at that level are going to hit that without too much trouble (level 15 barbarian: BAB +15, strength +11, magic weapon +4 = +30). But maybe that's what you want ... I think this needs to be a check possibly based on BAB where you get to add 1+Dex modifier if you have Combat Reflexes. Make a concentration check against this number (probably with some modifier). If you succeed, you don't suffer attacks of opportunity from that attacker.
Cheza 06-21-07, 12:59 PM	Casting Defensively: Make a Concentration check normally (DC = 15 + spell level - normally) ... and if you make it .. rather than avoiding all AoOs automagically ... it grants either: a) your skill modifier to your AC. or b) what you rolled - 15 - spell level to your AC So what you want is to get your AC bonuses into your concentration check. :P The normal rule for concentration: Decide if you wish to cast defensively 1.a) If you do not cast defensively Your opponent get's an attack of opportunity against your AC. You have to make a Concentration check against the damage dealt to still cast normally. 1.b) If you cast defensively, you try to prevent an AoO. So what you want, is to mix both things up. Your opponent still has to waste his AoO for that round to nearly never hit. You can do that by replacing your AC with the result of your skill check (you have to take it even if it's worse). However you do not get the second check to ignore the damage.
The_Ditto 06-22-07, 08:43 AM	So what you want, is to mix both things up. Sort of ... ;) Your opponent still has to waste his AoO for that round to nearly never hit. well, maybe not "waste" ... after all it's always your choice to take the AoO ... but if you see the Mage "defensive casting", you might think "Hmm, he may be too hard to hit at this point, maybe I'll save my AoO ... " or you're going to think "That's ok, I've got a high enough attack anyway, I should be able to tag him .. I'll take it." it just removes the "Automatic: no AoO vs me just because I made an easy skill check". Sure, at higher levels the mage is going to "always" add his concentration skill to his AC .. but at those levels .. as has been pointed out ... alot of critters are still going to tag you ... You can do that by replacing your AC with the result of your skill check (you have to take it even if it's worse). Hmm, that's an idea as well, but it doesn't offer enough protection for the mage ... I'm not trying to totally hose the mage .. replacing the AC with the roll would totally hose the mage ... However you do not get the second check to ignore the damage. This would also totally hose the mage .. again, something I'm trying not to do ... just make it a bit more "challenging" and not so "automatic" ... :tiphat: