Concentration as a Wisdom skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concentration as a Wisdom skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Razorgrin
05-26-07, 05:40 PM I feel like there've probably been several threads to this effect here, but my search-fu is weak.

Since the release of 3e D&D, my group has used Concentration as a Wisdom skill. We justified it to ourselves by pointing out that, unlike the other five stats, you can't actively use your Constitution score (any Constitution-related checks you make are always in reaction to something). In addition, the description of the skill indicates "mind over matter" and implies a certain kind of mental stubbornness, both of which are definitely Wisdom-based concepts.

However, as I'm delving more into the rules and the reasons for the rules, I'm noticing that it might cause more problems than it alleviates. If nothing else, divine casters automatically have (yet another) advantage over arcane casters.

Anyone have any insights or thoughts? It's never specifically unbalanced our games and I don't see the other members of the group changing it back for the games they run, but I feel like maybe Monte and Co. know better than we do.
True Cavalier
05-26-07, 08:22 PM I like the idea, it doesn't break anything, and I've always thought Wizards don't have nearly enough incentive to have high Wisdom, even though they probably should (too many absent-minded professors out there, since the beginnings of the point-buy system).

Thumbs up from me.
JulesCARV
05-26-07, 08:32 PM I'd allow a feat to switch concentration from constitution to wisdom (or even charisma), but I don't think I'd just make it the default.
Tequila_Sunrise
05-26-07, 09:50 PM 'Logically', concentration can be rationalized as either Con or Wis. I think that, ultimately, it is a Con skill so as not to give divine casters yet more versatility. But hey, if your group needs more incentive to play divine casters I don't see any problem in house ruling concentration as a Wis skill.
Xeviat-DM
05-29-07, 04:32 PM It's been a Wis skill in my game for a year now, and it's fine. Con's skill should be Endurance, and Saga Edition is doing that.
Pfisiar
05-29-07, 06:53 PM It's been a Wis skill in my game for a year now, and it's fine. Con's skill should be Endurance, and Saga Edition is doing that.
Concentration is a form of endurance. It is the ability to block out all pain, all physical discomfort and distractions and perform the necessary task. For example, casting a spell while tossing and turning on a ship is a physical task. It's taxing on your body. Concentration is the ability to push through the physical challenges that might break your mental mindset. Concentration is about taking physical abuse without losing your mindset, therefore it's a physical skill. Therefore, Constitution is the correct stat Concentration.

Wisdom is about the ability to notice things, take in the world, survival and other practical concerns. I fail to see how Wisdom is related to the ability to push through pain and discomfort.
Lina_Inverse
05-29-07, 09:41 PM I like the idea, it doesn't break anything

It improves CoDzilla, which by definition is broken.

(too many absent-minded professors out there, since the beginnings of the point-buy system).

Solution, don't use pointbuy.
Theskippingman
05-29-07, 09:44 PM Well, I like Concentration being a Con skill because it works logically and minor balance, as discussed above, but also because it's the only Constitution-based skill. Taking that away would reduce Con skills to a grand total of 0.

Theskippingman
Xeviat-DM
05-30-07, 02:38 AM But not all Concentration checks are made when you take damage. You have to make Concentration checks to avoid any kind of distractions. I don't think a healthier person should be any better than an unhealthy person at concentrating on picking a lock while someone is blabbing in their ear, but someone who is wise should be better than someone who is unwise.

The ability to survive pain is Con. The ability to ignore pain should be Wis (as evidenced by Autohypnosis).
Steely_Dan
05-30-07, 04:31 AM I don't think a healthier person should be any better than an unhealthy person at concentrating on picking a lock while someone is blabbing in their ear, but someone who is wise should be better than someone who is unwise.

Exactly, how does having a good immune system or what have you grant you a greater attention span etc?
Pfisiar
05-30-07, 10:17 AM Exactly, how does having a good immune system or what have you grant you a greater attention span etc?
A Healthy Body and physical nature is necessary for a good mental outlook. Concentration is related to mental fatigue which is intriniscally related to what happens to your physical body.

The better physical condition you're in, the less mental fatigue you suffer. The less mental fatigue you suffer, the easier it is to focus on a task at the expense of the surrounding environment.
Steely_Dan
05-30-07, 10:23 AM A Healthy Body and physical nature is necessary for a good mental outlook. Concentration is related to mental fatigue which is intriniscally related to what happens to your physical body.

The better physical condition you're in, the less mental fatigue you suffer. The less mental fatigue you suffer, the easier it is to focus on a task at the expense of the surrounding environment.

But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration.
Pfisiar
05-30-07, 10:28 AM But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration.
Typically, the concentration skill reflects not merely mental concentration, but mental concentration under strain.

Take these physical weaklings and put them under stress and see how they can concentrate under those conditions.

The Concentration skill is about concentrating under adverse conditions.
Razorgrin
05-31-07, 06:38 PM Typically, the concentration skill reflects not merely mental concentration, but mental concentration under strain.

Emphasis mine. Constitution is a physical score; using a physical score to modify a mental concept seems silly to me. In either case, Wisdom is also used to define stubbornness and willpower, both of which are the basis for mental focus (as far as I'm concerned).
True Cavalier
05-31-07, 08:50 PM Actually, shutting down distractions (and even pain) at the highest level is more of a mental feat, not a physical one.

Though generally a tough guy might keep casting while his flesh is being eaten away by acid arrow, when a weaker fellow might start screaming.

But damage (like from acid arrow) is one aspect of concentration checks; how about defensive casting? Or casting on horseback?
starfire311
05-31-07, 10:40 PM But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration.

could they concentrate on something while I am hitting them? I think the idea is that they are still able to focus on what they are doing, while on under physical distress, perhaps thre should be 2 different skills, endurace/toughness for ignoring physical distractions and concentration for ignoring mental ones.
Steely_Dan
06-01-07, 02:44 AM perhaps thre should be 2 different skills, endurace/toughness for ignoring physical distractions and concentration for ignoring mental ones.

I believe that's exactly what they are doing in Saga – Endurance is now a skill.
RobbyPants
06-01-07, 12:45 PM I think the biggest reason to use Con was to keep all casters on equal footing. Although, you could argue agaisnt it with Knowledge(Arcana or Religion) and Spellcraft being based on Int...

I could also see someone arguing to make Concentration based on Cha... having the force of will to persevere despite distracting conditions.

I would just as soon keep it as Constitution.
Razorgrin
06-02-07, 02:11 PM I think the biggest reason to use Con was to keep all casters on equal footing. Although, you could argue agaisnt it with Knowledge(Arcana or Religion) and Spellcraft being based on Int...

That's a good point.

I could also see someone arguing to make Concentration based on Cha... having the force of will to persevere despite distracting conditions.

I believe you mean "force of personality." Force of will is, by definition, Wisdom, and is better covered by a Will save than a check.

I was considering that as an option, too: pick your mental stat and base Concentration checks on it. Int makes a little less sense than the other two, but I could see the argument made that someone with a very high intellect could have trained his/her mind to work in logical pathways that don't allow for distraction. Depending on the task (such as a Craft check while distracted, for example), it might make more sense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Razorgrin 05-26-07, 05:40 PM	I feel like there've probably been several threads to this effect here, but my search-fu is weak. Since the release of 3e D&D, my group has used Concentration as a Wisdom skill. We justified it to ourselves by pointing out that, unlike the other five stats, you can't actively use your Constitution score (any Constitution-related checks you make are always in reaction to something). In addition, the description of the skill indicates "mind over matter" and implies a certain kind of mental stubbornness, both of which are definitely Wisdom-based concepts. However, as I'm delving more into the rules and the reasons for the rules, I'm noticing that it might cause more problems than it alleviates. If nothing else, divine casters automatically have (yet another) advantage over arcane casters. Anyone have any insights or thoughts? It's never specifically unbalanced our games and I don't see the other members of the group changing it back for the games they run, but I feel like maybe Monte and Co. know better than we do.
True Cavalier 05-26-07, 08:22 PM	I like the idea, it doesn't break anything, and I've always thought Wizards don't have nearly enough incentive to have high Wisdom, even though they probably should (too many absent-minded professors out there, since the beginnings of the point-buy system). Thumbs up from me.
JulesCARV 05-26-07, 08:32 PM	I'd allow a feat to switch concentration from constitution to wisdom (or even charisma), but I don't think I'd just make it the default.
Tequila_Sunrise 05-26-07, 09:50 PM	'Logically', concentration can be rationalized as either Con or Wis. I think that, ultimately, it is a Con skill so as not to give divine casters yet more versatility. But hey, if your group needs more incentive to play divine casters I don't see any problem in house ruling concentration as a Wis skill.
Xeviat-DM 05-29-07, 04:32 PM	It's been a Wis skill in my game for a year now, and it's fine. Con's skill should be Endurance, and Saga Edition is doing that.
Pfisiar 05-29-07, 06:53 PM	It's been a Wis skill in my game for a year now, and it's fine. Con's skill should be Endurance, and Saga Edition is doing that. Concentration is a form of endurance. It is the ability to block out all pain, all physical discomfort and distractions and perform the necessary task. For example, casting a spell while tossing and turning on a ship is a physical task. It's taxing on your body. Concentration is the ability to push through the physical challenges that might break your mental mindset. Concentration is about taking physical abuse without losing your mindset, therefore it's a physical skill. Therefore, Constitution is the correct stat Concentration. Wisdom is about the ability to notice things, take in the world, survival and other practical concerns. I fail to see how Wisdom is related to the ability to push through pain and discomfort.
Lina_Inverse 05-29-07, 09:41 PM	I like the idea, it doesn't break anything It improves CoDzilla, which by definition is broken. (too many absent-minded professors out there, since the beginnings of the point-buy system). Solution, don't use pointbuy.
Theskippingman 05-29-07, 09:44 PM	Well, I like Concentration being a Con skill because it works logically and minor balance, as discussed above, but also because it's the only Constitution-based skill. Taking that away would reduce Con skills to a grand total of 0. Theskippingman
Xeviat-DM 05-30-07, 02:38 AM	But not all Concentration checks are made when you take damage. You have to make Concentration checks to avoid any kind of distractions. I don't think a healthier person should be any better than an unhealthy person at concentrating on picking a lock while someone is blabbing in their ear, but someone who is wise should be better than someone who is unwise. The ability to survive pain is Con. The ability to ignore pain should be Wis (as evidenced by Autohypnosis).
Steely_Dan 05-30-07, 04:31 AM	I don't think a healthier person should be any better than an unhealthy person at concentrating on picking a lock while someone is blabbing in their ear, but someone who is wise should be better than someone who is unwise. Exactly, how does having a good immune system or what have you grant you a greater attention span etc?
Pfisiar 05-30-07, 10:17 AM	Exactly, how does having a good immune system or what have you grant you a greater attention span etc? A Healthy Body and physical nature is necessary for a good mental outlook. Concentration is related to mental fatigue which is intriniscally related to what happens to your physical body. The better physical condition you're in, the less mental fatigue you suffer. The less mental fatigue you suffer, the easier it is to focus on a task at the expense of the surrounding environment.
Steely_Dan 05-30-07, 10:23 AM	A Healthy Body and physical nature is necessary for a good mental outlook. Concentration is related to mental fatigue which is intriniscally related to what happens to your physical body. The better physical condition you're in, the less mental fatigue you suffer. The less mental fatigue you suffer, the easier it is to focus on a task at the expense of the surrounding environment. But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration.
Pfisiar 05-30-07, 10:28 AM	But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration. Typically, the concentration skill reflects not merely mental concentration, but mental concentration under strain. Take these physical weaklings and put them under stress and see how they can concentrate under those conditions. The Concentration skill is about concentrating under adverse conditions.
Razorgrin 05-31-07, 06:38 PM	Typically, the concentration skill reflects not merely mental concentration, but mental concentration under strain. Emphasis mine. Constitution is a physical score; using a physical score to modify a mental concept seems silly to me. In either case, Wisdom is also used to define stubbornness and willpower, both of which are the basis for mental focus (as far as I'm concerned).
True Cavalier 05-31-07, 08:50 PM	Actually, shutting down distractions (and even pain) at the highest level is more of a mental feat, not a physical one. Though generally a tough guy might keep casting while his flesh is being eaten away by acid arrow, when a weaker fellow might start screaming. But damage (like from acid arrow) is one aspect of concentration checks; how about defensive casting? Or casting on horseback?
starfire311 05-31-07, 10:40 PM	But we all still know people with weak frames, below average health and poor diets who have amazing powers of concentration. could they concentrate on something while I am hitting them? I think the idea is that they are still able to focus on what they are doing, while on under physical distress, perhaps thre should be 2 different skills, endurace/toughness for ignoring physical distractions and concentration for ignoring mental ones.
Steely_Dan 06-01-07, 02:44 AM	perhaps thre should be 2 different skills, endurace/toughness for ignoring physical distractions and concentration for ignoring mental ones. I believe that's exactly what they are doing in Saga – Endurance is now a skill.
RobbyPants 06-01-07, 12:45 PM	I think the biggest reason to use Con was to keep all casters on equal footing. Although, you could argue agaisnt it with Knowledge(Arcana or Religion) and Spellcraft being based on Int... I could also see someone arguing to make Concentration based on Cha... having the force of will to persevere despite distracting conditions. I would just as soon keep it as Constitution.
Razorgrin 06-02-07, 02:11 PM	I think the biggest reason to use Con was to keep all casters on equal footing. Although, you could argue agaisnt it with Knowledge(Arcana or Religion) and Spellcraft being based on Int... That's a good point. I could also see someone arguing to make Concentration based on Cha... having the force of will to persevere despite distracting conditions. I believe you mean "force of personality." Force of will is, by definition, Wisdom, and is better covered by a Will save than a check. I was considering that as an option, too: pick your mental stat and base Concentration checks on it. Int makes a little less sense than the other two, but I could see the argument made that someone with a very high intellect could have trained his/her mind to work in logical pathways that don't allow for distraction. Depending on the task (such as a Craft check while distracted, for example), it might make more sense.