Craft Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Craft Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Flametalons
02-09-08, 02:57 PM A freind of mine who Dms and I were talking the other day and we got onto the topic of how similar undead are to constructs (especially non-intelligent undead). Eventually we got into a discussion about how both are created.

Consider: a spellcaster can theoretically have a sqadron of golems at his disposal limited only by his time, money, and exp.

Why is it that undead are so controlled? Why not have a craft feat that allows spellcasters (necromancers) the ability to craft undead allies. This way a spellcaster CAN have all the undead he wants, limited to the same as any craft. "You want a ghoul manservant? Sure...you'll just have to find a body and pay for him."

My friend pointed out that it would completely destroy any utility of animate undead and create undead spells. I disagreed because animate undead has very set limits on what it can animate and create undead, while good for making something scary, has control issues. Whereas, if you craft it, you are spending the exp/gold to have a permant ally, just like constructs.

Are there any opinions to this idea?

(note. this would of course have to exclude the creation of spawn for now because I know how broken THAT could be.)
Kedami
02-15-08, 05:06 PM I know this post is a few days old now, but I wanted to say that this would be interesting. I'm a fan of the undead and will be planning to buy Heroes of Horror soon to make my Necromancers scarier.

Also, I thought it was Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm)?

Anyway, if you put anything towards making this feat possible please inform me.

(And you don't know how many mistakes I made typing that... I need more sleep.)
Flametalons
02-15-08, 11:05 PM Heh, you're right. I meant animate dead.

The first problem I've reached is cost. I tried looking at the golems in just the basic monster manual, but I cannot figure out how they came up with the cost. Either the cost was done on a case by case basis or I'm just not seeing the formula.

I considered briefly to do it by Challenge rating. For example, the CR squared times 50 in gold. The spellcaster would require the feat Craft Undead and have a caster level at least 2 higher than the CR of the undead to be created.

So, a wolf skeleton (CR 1) would cost 50 gold pieces. A ghast (CR 3) would be 450 gp. This would just be to CREATE it.

The pro of this is that it is simple and easy without complex formulas or making each undead individually. The con is that it might be too simple and maybe too broken. A 20 CR undead would only cost 50,000. Of course, you won't have control over it and will probably be targetted by it if you don't find some means of control.

To control it, the caster would have to spend 1/5 the gp value in exp.
So, our skeletal wolf would be a total cost of 50 gp and 10 exp. A CR 20 undead would be 50,000gp and 10,000 exp. Cheaper than the greater stone golem but a bigger hit on exp.
Kedami
02-15-08, 11:13 PM I quite like it, but then there's the Wizard with Command Undead who chooses not to pay the XP and instead creates undead on a scheduel so that he doesn't run out of Command Undeads and just uses that...

Other than that (and the strain on someone trying to hold an army like that) it's a good system so far.

Would there be a minimum caster level like other creation feats? Craft Construct requires two other item creation feats, so I could see this one having a prerequisit like Craft Woundrous Item as well.
hoodGamer
02-16-08, 01:22 AM yeah there should be craft undead. look at how many undead in the MM says its crafted by powerfull necromancers but when your the powerfull necromancer you can't make it!
Flametalons
02-16-08, 02:15 AM CRAFT UNDEAD [CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create any undead whose challenge rating is at least two less than your spellcasting level. The cost to craft an undead creature is equal to its challenge rating squared times 50gp. Upon creation, the spellcaster may spend 1/5 of the gp cost in experience points to bring it under his control.

Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself.

Crafting an undead takes one day per 1000 gp and requires at least 1 corpse.
Flametalons
02-16-08, 02:21 AM As far as a Wizard just using Command Undead, don't forget

1. It uses up a spell slot not just once but it needs upkeep for every undead
2. At best it makes intelligent undead only listen if you ask really nice and win a Charisma check
3. Sure, you could craft the undead and use a spell to control it, but if you really wanted to go that route you could just go after already made ones that are crawling over nearly every graveyard and crypt around.
Kedami
02-16-08, 10:24 AM ...

Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself.

....

What exactly does that mean? Does the caster pay XP or Gold or what?

Otherwise, I'm liking it so far.
Flametalons
02-16-08, 03:32 PM "Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself."

In other words, if my vampire creates a spawn it is uncontrolled unless my mage is within 30 ft. when it animates and immediatly spends twice the exp. it would normally cost to control it through the feat. If he does, the spawn is controlled just like the original.

The reson for the double exp cost is 2-fold.
1. Obviously there won't be a gold cost because the original animated it.
2. While it would be pretty broken if you just buy a couple slaves and have your minion spawn them all for normal exp. cost for no gp cost, it also makes sense because there is no connection between the creator and newly spawned undead. The double exp. established that connection and brings it under control.
Flametalons
02-16-08, 03:36 PM CRAFT UNDEAD [CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create any undead whose challenge rating is at least two less than your spellcasting level. The cost to craft an undead creature is equal to its challenge rating squared times 50gp. Upon creation, the spellcaster may spend 1/5 of the gp cost in experience points to bring it under his control.

Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and immediately spends twice the normal exp. he would spend if he had created it himself.

Crafting an undead takes one day per 1000 gp and requires at least 1 corpse.
Legdiwena
02-21-08, 08:32 PM I think the limit is due to the necromancer having to control the energy animating the skeleton and at the same time fending angry souls of the corpses he used.
Cranewings
02-22-08, 03:19 PM Leg, nice stat line. How many times did you roll :cool:
Legdiwena
02-23-08, 11:55 AM Well took test years ago, but first time recently.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flametalons 02-09-08, 02:57 PM	A freind of mine who Dms and I were talking the other day and we got onto the topic of how similar undead are to constructs (especially non-intelligent undead). Eventually we got into a discussion about how both are created. Consider: a spellcaster can theoretically have a sqadron of golems at his disposal limited only by his time, money, and exp. Why is it that undead are so controlled? Why not have a craft feat that allows spellcasters (necromancers) the ability to craft undead allies. This way a spellcaster CAN have all the undead he wants, limited to the same as any craft. "You want a ghoul manservant? Sure...you'll just have to find a body and pay for him." My friend pointed out that it would completely destroy any utility of animate undead and create undead spells. I disagreed because animate undead has very set limits on what it can animate and create undead, while good for making something scary, has control issues. Whereas, if you craft it, you are spending the exp/gold to have a permant ally, just like constructs. Are there any opinions to this idea? (note. this would of course have to exclude the creation of spawn for now because I know how broken THAT could be.)
Kedami 02-15-08, 05:06 PM	I know this post is a few days old now, but I wanted to say that this would be interesting. I'm a fan of the undead and will be planning to buy Heroes of Horror soon to make my Necromancers scarier. Also, I thought it was Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm)? Anyway, if you put anything towards making this feat possible please inform me. (And you don't know how many mistakes I made typing that... I need more sleep.)
Flametalons 02-15-08, 11:05 PM	Heh, you're right. I meant animate dead. The first problem I've reached is cost. I tried looking at the golems in just the basic monster manual, but I cannot figure out how they came up with the cost. Either the cost was done on a case by case basis or I'm just not seeing the formula. I considered briefly to do it by Challenge rating. For example, the CR squared times 50 in gold. The spellcaster would require the feat Craft Undead and have a caster level at least 2 higher than the CR of the undead to be created. So, a wolf skeleton (CR 1) would cost 50 gold pieces. A ghast (CR 3) would be 450 gp. This would just be to CREATE it. The pro of this is that it is simple and easy without complex formulas or making each undead individually. The con is that it might be too simple and maybe too broken. A 20 CR undead would only cost 50,000. Of course, you won't have control over it and will probably be targetted by it if you don't find some means of control. To control it, the caster would have to spend 1/5 the gp value in exp. So, our skeletal wolf would be a total cost of 50 gp and 10 exp. A CR 20 undead would be 50,000gp and 10,000 exp. Cheaper than the greater stone golem but a bigger hit on exp.
Kedami 02-15-08, 11:13 PM	I quite like it, but then there's the Wizard with Command Undead who chooses not to pay the XP and instead creates undead on a scheduel so that he doesn't run out of Command Undeads and just uses that... Other than that (and the strain on someone trying to hold an army like that) it's a good system so far. Would there be a minimum caster level like other creation feats? Craft Construct requires two other item creation feats, so I could see this one having a prerequisit like Craft Woundrous Item as well.
hoodGamer 02-16-08, 01:22 AM	yeah there should be craft undead. look at how many undead in the MM says its crafted by powerfull necromancers but when your the powerfull necromancer you can't make it!
Flametalons 02-16-08, 02:15 AM	CRAFT UNDEAD [CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd. Benefit: You can create any undead whose challenge rating is at least two less than your spellcasting level. The cost to craft an undead creature is equal to its challenge rating squared times 50gp. Upon creation, the spellcaster may spend 1/5 of the gp cost in experience points to bring it under his control. Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself. Crafting an undead takes one day per 1000 gp and requires at least 1 corpse.
Flametalons 02-16-08, 02:21 AM	As far as a Wizard just using Command Undead, don't forget 1. It uses up a spell slot not just once but it needs upkeep for every undead 2. At best it makes intelligent undead only listen if you ask really nice and win a Charisma check 3. Sure, you could craft the undead and use a spell to control it, but if you really wanted to go that route you could just go after already made ones that are crawling over nearly every graveyard and crypt around.
Kedami 02-16-08, 10:24 AM	... Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself. .... What exactly does that mean? Does the caster pay XP or Gold or what? Otherwise, I'm liking it so far.
Flametalons 02-16-08, 03:32 PM	"Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and spends twice the normal amount he would spend if he had created it himself." In other words, if my vampire creates a spawn it is uncontrolled unless my mage is within 30 ft. when it animates and immediatly spends twice the exp. it would normally cost to control it through the feat. If he does, the spawn is controlled just like the original. The reson for the double exp cost is 2-fold. 1. Obviously there won't be a gold cost because the original animated it. 2. While it would be pretty broken if you just buy a couple slaves and have your minion spawn them all for normal exp. cost for no gp cost, it also makes sense because there is no connection between the creator and newly spawned undead. The double exp. established that connection and brings it under control.
Flametalons 02-16-08, 03:36 PM	CRAFT UNDEAD [CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd. Benefit: You can create any undead whose challenge rating is at least two less than your spellcasting level. The cost to craft an undead creature is equal to its challenge rating squared times 50gp. Upon creation, the spellcaster may spend 1/5 of the gp cost in experience points to bring it under his control. Undead created through this feat may create spawn if they would normally have the ability but are automatically uncontrolled unless the caster is within 30 ft. of the corpse and immediately spends twice the normal exp. he would spend if he had created it himself. Crafting an undead takes one day per 1000 gp and requires at least 1 corpse.
Legdiwena 02-21-08, 08:32 PM	I think the limit is due to the necromancer having to control the energy animating the skeleton and at the same time fending angry souls of the corpses he used.
Cranewings 02-22-08, 03:19 PM	Leg, nice stat line. How many times did you roll :cool:
Legdiwena 02-23-08, 11:55 AM	Well took test years ago, but first time recently.