Post/Author/DateTime	Post
David_Roben2 06-23-06, 03:59 PM	I have a couple of players who want to set up a side game. They are a bit tired of the overpowered magic dominating our current campaign and want to play something a bit more...um...historically accurate? So they've asked for lo/no magic (items, classes, monsters) and only humans allowed. I think I'll include some monsters to keep things interesting. So, here is what I have so far. I am going to set up a big back story about how magic got out of control a couple of thousand years ago and wiped out the entire planet and severely weakened the gods. A major diefic war happened and the human gods banded together to destroy the others. Blah blah blah, they win and bring back humans but are too weak to bring back any major magic. There are a few magic items that survived and can be found. It's a pretty involved back story. Only humans allowed period. NPC's and PC's will be human (but I am working on racial feats to allow for subspecies). No full caster classes and any partial casters will be modified to have different abilities to replace spells. This will be a mostly social campaign with only 1 or 2 battles per session. Alchemy will be a major influence on society. Social networking, building contacts and influence will be exspense and that is where most of the PC's funds will go. Monsters may include undead, dire/legendary animals, and occasional alchemical monstrosities but most opponents will be other humans. I also want to focus on some gritty, film noire mystery quests. Lots of political intrigue and power struggles for the PC's to influence. Anyway...What I need help with: I need some feats to be taken at first level to emulate different regions to give the PC's some individuality. These can be kind of powerful as long as they all are. Or maybe a group of weaker feats that can be given (i.e. endurance and skill focus:survival for desert regions) I also need some abilities to give to the classes to replace spells. And finally some enemy ideas (non human or bbeg's). Also anyone wanting to give some general ideas to improve the plan is more than welcome. I expect plenty of flaming from the monty hauls out there but remember, this is what the players want. I'm trying to give them something they will enjoy as a side game. Thanks for any help!
Phoenix Knight 06-23-06, 04:07 PM	It sounds like a lot of fun to me. There's always several threads running around about making low magic work, assuming you don't want to use Iron Heroes or d20 Past. This board and the Campaign board are big places to look for prior low-magic threads (or half-caster threads). There's also a recent similar conversation in the What's a DM to do board that might be of help. Non-human BBEG's might include the undead (very dangerous without magic), such as vampires, or shapeshifters such as doppelgangers or werewolves. Then there are aberrations left over from the old world, if you feel like some horror elements. Then there are demons. Does you world have dragons? Of course, humans make perfectly good BBEGs, too.
David_Roben2 06-23-06, 04:34 PM	Good suggestions! The DR/silver-magic-whatever creatures will definitely be fun. Any specific threads you could point me towards? Also has anyone played a low magic campaign? What worked well? What sucked like no tomorrow?
Derrick 06-23-06, 06:23 PM	From the sound of things, you want a similar system to me (see the thread "Live by the Sword: Brainstorming" for the starting point to my design process). One caveat: racial/regional feats, IME, don't work very well. Either they're good enough to foot it with regular feats (in which case there's a lot of pressure to only play english archers), or they're too weak to justify taking (which makes knights and samurai are pretty much interchangeable). You're probably better off designing a set of 'cultures' that stack atop the base human abilities. (See D20 Modern for an example of this sort of idea.)
True Cavalier 06-23-06, 08:13 PM	It looks like you could use a set of rules where the Alchemy Skill instead of the Brew Potion + spells combo governs potion creation. Perhaps rule that a character with the Brew Potion feat can create any potion, paying the XP and gold costs, and is able to "substitute" the required spell with a Craft: Alchemy check DC 15 + Caster Level (minimum 3) and if that fails, he still pays the gold cost. So, a non-spellcaster trying to make a potion of Cure Light Wounds at caster level 3 would need to beat a DC18, DC20 if he wanted to make it at caster level 5, or brew a potion of speed (haste). A character with Craft: Alchemy but without the Brew Potion feat can still make the basic alchemical items (acid flask etc).
Phoenix Knight 06-24-06, 12:13 AM	It looks like you could use a set of rules where the Alchemy Skill instead of the Brew Potion + spells combo governs potion creation. Perhaps rule that a character with the Brew Potion feat can create any potion, paying the XP and gold costs, and is able to "substitute" the required spell with a Craft: Alchemy check DC 15 + Caster Level (minimum 3) and if that fails, he still pays the gold cost. So, a non-spellcaster trying to make a potion of Cure Light Wounds at caster level 3 would need to beat a DC18, DC20 if he wanted to make it at caster level 5, or brew a potion of speed (haste). A character with Craft: Alchemy but without the Brew Potion feat can still make the basic alchemical items (acid flask etc). I really like this idea. I might be careful about making potions of healing, however. The world suddenly feels a lots less special if you've got a cleric in a bottle. Still, it'd be nice to see alchemy craft stuff besides poisons and tanglefoot bags.
David_Roben2 06-24-06, 09:57 AM	excellent guys! I was thinking of making alchemy a major part of the campaign. As for healing, I was thinking of letting heal checks actually heal damage. Any suggestions as to a good way to allow this? Also, I'm still lookin for imput from anyone who has played a low magic game.
Nani? 06-24-06, 10:17 AM	Good Historical Novels/Movies: A Lot of Morgan Lyywellyn particularly Druids (No "real" magic per se, just Ceaser invading Gaul from the viewpoint of a Druid "Expert". Also a lot with the rivalries in tribal societies. 13th Warrior: Good Movie, not plot wise but atmosphere wise. A lot by Kathleen + Micheal Oneal Gear: They are real world Archeaologists and if you don't read the whole novel, they have forwards and endnotes about the real world things they include, like ritual cannabalism (great intimidation tactic), witchcraft in traditional societies, massacures, "survival tactics" under changing conditions. The stuff you don't get in PC things. All the Best, Nani?
True Cavalier 06-24-06, 11:48 AM	Hm, with the alchemy I mentioned, potions still cost you gold (and xp) to create. Perhaps allowing the heal skill to cure damage "for free" goes too far. How about letting PCs heal damage with that skill, as long as they have expensive herbs and equipment that costs similarly to potions?
Exquisite_Flopilidopilies 06-24-06, 04:29 PM	For the various "customized human" subraces, let your players do the work. I know they may try to min/max it but it gives you a place to start and you only need to work on the "subraces" that people want to play (rather than developing the whole menu). Just say that subraces get a small package of benefits (say, a bonus feat and a +2 subracial bonus to two skills) and allow your players to develop some of the background of your land of origin. Instead of allowing the immediate (unrealistic) healing offered by potions and clerics, allow a Heal skill application to speed up the rate of natural healing, so that (for example) you can heal in four hours as if you rested for the night, or heal double at night. There's something video-game like in getting back to full health right away, whether that's delivered by a potion, medi-pak or healer; that doesn't seem like the feel you're going for. Some of the natural effects in the game, like poisons and disease, assume you have magical healing or magical ways of reversing the effects. You probably want to nerf those effects. Alchemy's a good idea, but a lot of alchemical effects in D&D lend the same basic effect as magic. You don't want to get rid of magic for flavor reasons, only to have alchemy become basically the new magic. Instant fire, armor hardeners, tanglefoot bags, etc. all have a magical "feel", even if they aren't magic. Get rid of the weirder alchemical effects. For what magic does end up in the game, consider using the incantation magic rules from UA as the only magic in the game. These effects are risky, time-consuming and strange; in other words, everything that popping a few magic missiles into the latest monster isn't. You might consider using the Expert and Warrior variations in UA rather than trying to come up with variant class benefits for partial spellcasters like bards and paladins. Again, you're letting the players do the work of defining what a "learned sage" who isn't a spellcaster might be.
BrianD 06-24-06, 04:38 PM	If you wanna tone down magical healing from where taking a sip of a potion causes bones to mend and cuts to close immediately, have Heal checks or alchemical concoctions change normal damage to subdual/non-lethal damage, which heals naturally much faster than actual lost hit points. This way a character who has sustained all kinds of nasty injuries, then get patched up by the healer or swigs down a cure light wounds, will be weakened until his body has healed itself (albeit at the accelerated rate from the alchemical treatment). Having to fight in a pinch, though, the character normally will be staggered or knocked out cold rather than being killed outright.
Phoenix Knight 06-25-06, 11:34 AM	Alchemy's a good idea, but a lot of alchemical effects in D&D lend the same basic effect as magic. You don't want to get rid of magic for flavor reasons, only to have alchemy become basically the new magic. Instant fire, armor hardeners, tanglefoot bags, etc. all have a magical "feel", even if they aren't magic. Get rid of the weirder alchemical effects. I agree. I've thought alchemy has its place, but I've never been thrilled with the way it works in D&D for just this reason. It should either be magical or be a pseudo-science. If you're not willing to just up and call it magical, it should be more limited in what it can do. Potions that accelerate healing, greek fire, and the like are fine. Thunderstones are probably a stretch. For what magic does end up in the game, consider using the incantation magic rules from UA as the only magic in the game. These effects are risky, time-consuming and strange; in other words, everything that popping a few magic missiles into the latest monster isn't. Absolutely. I think this is generally what magic should be in a low-magic game. I feel that the incantation are a good start, even if they leave something to be desired. They serve as the basis for ritualism, the primary form of magic in my new magic system. Only a very few (less than 1 in a million) have access to the combat-usuable sorcery abilities (also mentioned in that thread).
Thiez 06-25-06, 11:53 AM	BrianD, your Normal-to-Subdual idea is great. :) I'd like to point out that without magic there will be no holy water, so that could bump up undead CR a bit. You might want to come up with some replacement for the 'Bless Water' spell.
Phoenix Knight 06-25-06, 01:40 PM	Theoretically a priest should still be able to concencrate water. You might want to place a daily limit on it, however, to prevent players from having 99 vials of holy water at all times.
David_Roben2 06-26-06, 01:14 PM	I love these boards so much. There is always (read: usually) so much info from a collection of this many crative minds. I really like the ideas for alternate healing. How about both? A standard check to speed healing overnight, or a different check to change half to subdual. Kind of a patch job to get through the day, or the next encounter. Also some great stuff for alchemy. Kind of a shoot-off of the original thread, but what are everyone's opinions on what is too "flashy" for a no magic game? What alchemy do you all think would be good for flavor? How about some new alchemical items for a more social interaction game? For example: Calming Censor: By burning this small bit of incense made from various narcotics, anyone within 20' breathing the smoke for atleast 1 minute is calmed and slightly stupified for 1 hour (will DC:22 negates). While this is used in hospitals to calm unruly patients, it has been recently begun to see some widestream use with unsavory characters. Precautions need to be taken to prevent self infliction. Alternately, a candle can be infused with this concoction for a smokeless effect, but this halves the effective range. Also a crushed censor can be thrown onto any open flame for a quick release of smoke (and a few colorful sparks) effecting those within 10' in a single round, but for only 1 minute. Effect: Anyone effected takes a -2 competence penalty to sense motive and any checks made against the target for diplomacy or intimidate have their DC's lowered by 2. A masterwork Calming Censor increases the penalties to -3. Cost and create DC are still up in the air, but how does it look? Any other ideas I could swipe?
Phoenix Knight 06-26-06, 03:08 PM	Generally any attempt to resist a toxic, even an inhaled one, are resisted with Fort saves. There's certainly nothing wrong with the censor, and narcotics have been around for a long time. Infusing it into a candle feels a little more modern than typical, but I think that can be okay. The rule that healing converts lethal to non-lethal is a small variant in Unearthed Arcana. I used it, but felt it had mixed results. The players didn't like it that much, and at higher levels it created some problems when they couldn't effectively heal in fights. If you plan on keeping levels low or not exposing them to high CR monsters, only other people, you might not have the problem. A fight with a dragon or such seems a lot nastier without magical healing.
BrianD 06-26-06, 05:17 PM	The rule that healing converts lethal to non-lethal is a small variant in Unearthed Arcana. I used it, but felt it had mixed results. The players didn't like it that much, and at higher levels it created some problems when they couldn't effectively heal in fights. If you plan on keeping levels low or not exposing them to high CR monsters, only other people, you might not have the problem. I never liked the armor converting lethal to nonlethal damage. Everybody who wore armor in a fight and lost just got knocked out and before you know it the party's either stuck with a whole chain gang of prisoners, or guilty consciences/neutral alignments for slitting a bunch of defenseless throats. With healing to convert to nonlethal, only the people who have taken a sufficient beating previously and not given themselves enough time to rest get conked out. Most often, the PCs are the only adversaries that monsters or other enemies are going to fight in a day, so most of them won't have tons of nonlethal damage waiting to heal up. Conversely, members of the party are more likely to have injuries that were treated, but not yet entirely healed, from a prior fight, so it tends to be more forgiving as far as PC death goes (a definite boon if you're not keen on easy-to-come-by raise dead spells). But yes, actually healing mid-fight is pretty ineffectual, which could be a pro or a con. Personally I'm of the opinion that a fight with a dragon should be as nasty as humanly possible.
Phoenix Knight 06-26-06, 05:46 PM	I never liked the armor converting lethal to nonlethal damage. Everybody who wore armor in a fight and lost just got knocked out and before you know it the party's either stuck with a whole chain gang of prisoners, or guilty consciences/neutral alignments for slitting a bunch of defenseless throats. With healing to convert to nonlethal, only the people who have taken a sufficient beating previously and not given themselves enough time to rest get conked out. Most often, the PCs are the only adversaries that monsters or other enemies are going to fight in a day, so most of them won't have tons of nonlethal damage waiting to heal up. Conversely, members of the party are more likely to have injuries that were treated, but not yet entirely healed, from a prior fight, so it tends to be more forgiving as far as PC death goes (a definite boon if you're not keen on easy-to-come-by raise dead spells). But yes, actually healing mid-fight is pretty ineffectual, which could be a pro or a con. Personally I'm of the opinion that a fight with a dragon should be as nasty as humanly possible. I was actually not referring to an armor rule at all. I was talking about the rule present by Charles Ryan on page 115 that says healing converts lethal to non-lethal damage, thus speeding natural healing but preventing instant recovery. Certainly a dragon fight should be nasty. As nasty as humanly possible? A truly smart DM would kill a whole party, often even if the dragon is less than or equal to their CR. Especially in - as the subject currently is - a game with little to no magic. My experience as a DM and player is that a good DM can make it challenging enough without going TPK. I don't use resurrection magic. In the campaign I have been playing in lately, we would have died almost every fight without instant magical healing. Thus my point: that a DM has to carefully consider the variant before deciding on encounters, assuming he doesn't want players to have to run away every round.
David_Roben2 06-28-06, 01:04 PM	I think that the combination of the 2 healing methods will fit my game well, as combat should be fairly uncommon. 2 encounters in a single day should be rare, but will happen occasionally to keep them on their toes. As I'm trying to work out more alchemical rules I could still use some help in what is justifiable in a no magic world. Sunrods feel a bit out there, but maybe a thunderstone could be ok but at an increased price (a small bit of flashpowder and pieces of flint in a small iron ball?). What does everyone feel is just too outlandish to be a realistic alchemy? I know that I have final say, but I would love some opinions on this.