Critical Miss [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critical Miss [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WizardlyFriend
07-17-05, 02:54 PM me and my group play with the variant that natural 20 (20 shows up on the die) is an auto hit, and that natural 1 (1 shows up on the die) is an auto miss. i DM and i want to introduce a new system for natural one. like what we did before there will be a 90% chance that you auto-miss. a 5% chance that you re-roll normally and then 5% that something bad happens. of the bad things some of them can be good...

During an attack if a natural one is rolled, roll a D% and one of the following happens:

1: hit random person within range (melee attack only, if ranged then have a cone effect with first target in middle (he isn't included) and roll randomly to see who is aimed at. roll to hit at -5 (target is flat-footed)). All bonuses/penalties to the original attack apply.

2: hit yourself (strength/dexterity modifiers don’t apply to attack or damage. Treat it otherwise as a normal attack with all bonuses specified for the original attack.)

3: drop your weapon

4: provoke attack of opportunity

5: throw weapon (if you are using a thrown weapon refer to #2, if using a ranged weapon refer to #3, if using a melee weapon you throw your weapon at a random target in a 15 ft. cone in front of you. roll to see who you throw it at randomly and then make an attack at -5 (target is flat footed also). All bonuses/penalties from the original attack apply. If the person is proficient in throwing said weapon they must specify prior to rolling to see who their random throw is aimed at, if they are throwing it as if proficient at throwing or if they are throwing it as if not proficient in throwing.

6-95: auto-miss

96-100: re-roll

i like to incorporate some comedy elements into my campaing and the first 5 definitely would do this. however, this would happen so rarely that i don't think it would create any sort of balance issues.

EDIT: oh yes, please tell me what you think and if you think it is unfair or a bad idea. i still havent presented it to my group and it is the final say of a vote we will take.

thanks,
-me
Fargren
07-17-05, 05:38 PM The problem with ALL autohit rolls, is that the more attacks you get, the higher your chance of hitting yourself is. You should add a confimation roll to the natural one. Whenever you roll a 1, roll again. If thenew roll(plus all bonifiers) is less than target's AC, then roll a d100. That should work.
WizardlyFriend
07-17-05, 06:57 PM not sure what you are saying, but in the PHB (pg. 134) it states that a natural 1 is always a miss, and that a natural 20 is always a hit, and that a natural 20 is a threat. my house rule would say that instead of natural one always being an automiss instead it would be a critical miss meaning that you must roll a D100 and osmething bad could happen (5% chance something weird happens), 90% chance that the regualr thing happens and that you auto-miss, and 5% chance that it's your lucky day and you get to reroll.
Fargren
07-17-05, 07:17 PM What I meant is that when you use a house rule that gives a chance that a character hit himself on a natural one, ypu are changing the rules in a way that makes gaining extra attacks worst, not better, since each roll increases the chance of hitting yourself.
WizardlyFriend
07-17-05, 08:49 PM 2: hit yourself. In a bizarre turn of events you manage to hit yourself with your attack. Treat yourself as flat footed for the attack unless you have the uncanny dodge ability, since chances are you didn't notice this attack coming. Reroll and see if your new roll + you attack modifier for this attack(subtract any strength and dex modifiers since you are not going overboard to hit yourself) -5 exceed your AC. If they do then you have hit yourself. Yes a natural 20 is an auto-hit on yourself and yes you can crit yourself. Roll for damage, but do not include any strength damage when calculating.

How's that?
Fargren
07-17-05, 09:30 PM I like that better:D
Sinaz
07-18-05, 12:35 PM I came up with a neat way to get around the idea that higher level fighters (with more attacks) tend to fumble more often than lesser level fighters (with less attacks) as Fargren stated...

Your first roll during combat establishes your 'balance and rhythm' and is the only roll that can establish a crit.

Attack 1/ Crit check
Result: 1, PC scores a threat to critically fumble and is off balance this round. Re-roll first attack roll and each subsequent roll under off balance conditions.
Result: 2-19 (or one less than crit range), Treat as normal attack roll, PC is balanced this round. Roll all subsequent attacks as balanced conditions.
Result: 20 (or crit range), PC scores a threat to critically hit and is wll balanced this round. Re-roll first attack roll and each subsequent roll under well balanced conditions.

Off Balance check
This is like a critical threat to hit check but to fumble.
Result: 1, critical fumble, lose all remaining attacks this round.
Result: miss, critical miss, lose all remaining attacks this round.
Result: hit, treat as hit, deal half damage.
Result: 20, teat as normal hit.

Balanced check
All rolls this round are hit or miss, even on natural rolls.

Well Balanced check
Every attack this round is a chance to critically hit.
Result: 1, treat as normal miss.
Result: miss, treat as a hit, deal half damage.
Result: hit, treat as a critical hit.
Result: 20 (or crit range), treat as a threat to kill per triple crit RAW.

PS - I always adjucate critical fumbles and misses based on roleplaying description. So, per my particular style of play, it's never as simple as "you dropped your sword." Sometimes critical misses are involuntary '5-foot stumbles' out of a threatened square (due to overstepping an attack) or free AoO for the foe, or breaking a weapon... all depending on how the action was described.
WizardlyFriend
07-18-05, 01:18 PM your system looks good, but im afraid that for me, that would slow down game play too much. i was trying to design something fun that barely affected the current system. because the chances of any of the bad stuff happening are 1/400 (natural one is 1/20 and hten bad stuff is 1/20). since it won't be happening a lot it won't slow down gameplay, but when it does happen everyone will be watching the dice to see what happens.
Sinaz
07-18-05, 01:52 PM your system looks good, but im afraid that for me, that would slow down game play too much. i was trying to design something fun that barely affected the current system. because the chances of any of the bad stuff happening are 1/400 (natural one is 1/20 and hten bad stuff is 1/20). since it won't be happening a lot it won't slow down gameplay, but when it does happen everyone will be watching the dice to see what happens.

I might tend to disagree simply because my system will have fewer die rolls than yours.

You roll 1d20, reroll on a 1 or 20 to resolve the threat to critical hit or fumble... per attack (plus you use three dice: 1D20, and 1d%.)

I roll 1d20, 1 and 20 set the threat for the entire round... so each subsequent attack roll is a resolution to the threat (and I use only 1d20.)

Hypothetically, a 15th level fighter in your system could make 6 rolls in one round if he critically hit or miss each attack. not to mention that your system has a built in re-roll at d%96-100... so your system could re-roll indefinitely, however unlikely.

The same 15th level fighter in my system could make no more than 4 rolls in one round (barring the threat to instant kill) since the first attack roll determines the threat to crit or fumble for the whole round.

In the end, it's kind of the same... both of us re-roll ONLY if the first roll is a 1 or 20. You just do it every attack... which gets back into Fargren's point that this causes a higher volume of critical fumbles for higher level fighters.

And on a side note, again, per my personal style of play... I don't like charts that dictate actions that I feel either my players or I could be describing with more flourish... so I see your critical fumble chart as a limiting factor as in it would tend to supercede my roleplaying descriptions of the flow of combat.

PS- I just submitted a refined version of this system to Rengar's REpository. Wish me luck.
HailSpork
07-19-05, 04:13 AM If you're making a random chart, there is no point in including a section to reroll into the same chart.

In a few of the games I play in, we do a critical botch confirm role. If you miss on that role, only then is it a critical botch.
Otherwise, you run into the problem where a level 16 fighter is almost 4 times as likely to botch in a round as a level 5 fighter.
Snarf1
07-19-05, 07:32 AM In our group, we require a DC10 reflex save on a natural 1 to see if you have a critical fumble. The PCs are high enough level that this doesn't usually happen unless they roll a 1 on their save.

If the PC fails the save, I roll a d10 to see which square the weapon might go into. (1 = forward and to the left, 2 = one square forward, 5 = the character's own square, 10 = the weapon travels two squares, unless it hits something in the first square, so roll agan twice). If a creature is in that square, the fumbling PC makes a normal to hit roll. On a miss, the weapon lands on the ground in that square.
Elvintry
07-19-05, 11:37 PM I have my players do as such:
On a roll of a natural 1 the player rolls again. If another 1 is rolled then the weapon breaks (if non-magical) or is dropped (if magical). If a 20 is rolled on
the second roll then the attack hits for normal damage. Anything rolled inbetween, the player just misses.

If natural 20 is rolled then the player rolls again. If another natural 20 is rolled the weapon deals one mulitiplier higher (x2 becomes x3 and x3 becomes x4). If he doesn't then it's just a critical hit if he hits. The player gets another roll. If another natural 20 is rolled then the weapon deals another multiplier higher (x3 becomes x4 and x4 becomes x5) or it's an automatic decap (depending on my mood and the pace of the fight). If he rolls a 1 following any roll of twenty then the critical multiplier is reduced by 1 (x2 becomes x1, x3 becomes x2, x4 becomes x3 etc.). Of course the standard crit. rules apply as well. Like if the player rolles a threat for crit but not a natural 20 then he rerolls but does not gain the increased crit multiplier, but can suffer the reduced multipier if he rolls a 1. I have had several players roll three natural 20s in a row.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizardlyFriend 07-17-05, 02:54 PM	me and my group play with the variant that natural 20 (20 shows up on the die) is an auto hit, and that natural 1 (1 shows up on the die) is an auto miss. i DM and i want to introduce a new system for natural one. like what we did before there will be a 90% chance that you auto-miss. a 5% chance that you re-roll normally and then 5% that something bad happens. of the bad things some of them can be good... During an attack if a natural one is rolled, roll a D% and one of the following happens: 1: hit random person within range (melee attack only, if ranged then have a cone effect with first target in middle (he isn't included) and roll randomly to see who is aimed at. roll to hit at -5 (target is flat-footed)). All bonuses/penalties to the original attack apply. 2: hit yourself (strength/dexterity modifiers don’t apply to attack or damage. Treat it otherwise as a normal attack with all bonuses specified for the original attack.) 3: drop your weapon 4: provoke attack of opportunity 5: throw weapon (if you are using a thrown weapon refer to #2, if using a ranged weapon refer to #3, if using a melee weapon you throw your weapon at a random target in a 15 ft. cone in front of you. roll to see who you throw it at randomly and then make an attack at -5 (target is flat footed also). All bonuses/penalties from the original attack apply. If the person is proficient in throwing said weapon they must specify prior to rolling to see who their random throw is aimed at, if they are throwing it as if proficient at throwing or if they are throwing it as if not proficient in throwing. 6-95: auto-miss 96-100: re-roll i like to incorporate some comedy elements into my campaing and the first 5 definitely would do this. however, this would happen so rarely that i don't think it would create any sort of balance issues. EDIT: oh yes, please tell me what you think and if you think it is unfair or a bad idea. i still havent presented it to my group and it is the final say of a vote we will take. thanks, -me
Fargren 07-17-05, 05:38 PM	The problem with ALL autohit rolls, is that the more attacks you get, the higher your chance of hitting yourself is. You should add a confimation roll to the natural one. Whenever you roll a 1, roll again. If thenew roll(plus all bonifiers) is less than target's AC, then roll a d100. That should work.
WizardlyFriend 07-17-05, 06:57 PM	not sure what you are saying, but in the PHB (pg. 134) it states that a natural 1 is always a miss, and that a natural 20 is always a hit, and that a natural 20 is a threat. my house rule would say that instead of natural one always being an automiss instead it would be a critical miss meaning that you must roll a D100 and osmething bad could happen (5% chance something weird happens), 90% chance that the regualr thing happens and that you auto-miss, and 5% chance that it's your lucky day and you get to reroll.
Fargren 07-17-05, 07:17 PM	What I meant is that when you use a house rule that gives a chance that a character hit himself on a natural one, ypu are changing the rules in a way that makes gaining extra attacks worst, not better, since each roll increases the chance of hitting yourself.
WizardlyFriend 07-17-05, 08:49 PM	2: hit yourself. In a bizarre turn of events you manage to hit yourself with your attack. Treat yourself as flat footed for the attack unless you have the uncanny dodge ability, since chances are you didn't notice this attack coming. Reroll and see if your new roll + you attack modifier for this attack(subtract any strength and dex modifiers since you are not going overboard to hit yourself) -5 exceed your AC. If they do then you have hit yourself. Yes a natural 20 is an auto-hit on yourself and yes you can crit yourself. Roll for damage, but do not include any strength damage when calculating. How's that?
Fargren 07-17-05, 09:30 PM	I like that better:D
Sinaz 07-18-05, 12:35 PM	I came up with a neat way to get around the idea that higher level fighters (with more attacks) tend to fumble more often than lesser level fighters (with less attacks) as Fargren stated... Your first roll during combat establishes your 'balance and rhythm' and is the only roll that can establish a crit. Attack 1/ Crit check Result: 1, PC scores a threat to critically fumble and is off balance this round. Re-roll first attack roll and each subsequent roll under off balance conditions. Result: 2-19 (or one less than crit range), Treat as normal attack roll, PC is balanced this round. Roll all subsequent attacks as balanced conditions. Result: 20 (or crit range), PC scores a threat to critically hit and is wll balanced this round. Re-roll first attack roll and each subsequent roll under well balanced conditions. Off Balance check This is like a critical threat to hit check but to fumble. Result: 1, critical fumble, lose all remaining attacks this round. Result: miss, critical miss, lose all remaining attacks this round. Result: hit, treat as hit, deal half damage. Result: 20, teat as normal hit. Balanced check All rolls this round are hit or miss, even on natural rolls. Well Balanced check Every attack this round is a chance to critically hit. Result: 1, treat as normal miss. Result: miss, treat as a hit, deal half damage. Result: hit, treat as a critical hit. Result: 20 (or crit range), treat as a threat to kill per triple crit RAW. PS - I always adjucate critical fumbles and misses based on roleplaying description. So, per my particular style of play, it's never as simple as "you dropped your sword." Sometimes critical misses are involuntary '5-foot stumbles' out of a threatened square (due to overstepping an attack) or free AoO for the foe, or breaking a weapon... all depending on how the action was described.
WizardlyFriend 07-18-05, 01:18 PM	your system looks good, but im afraid that for me, that would slow down game play too much. i was trying to design something fun that barely affected the current system. because the chances of any of the bad stuff happening are 1/400 (natural one is 1/20 and hten bad stuff is 1/20). since it won't be happening a lot it won't slow down gameplay, but when it does happen everyone will be watching the dice to see what happens.
Sinaz 07-18-05, 01:52 PM	your system looks good, but im afraid that for me, that would slow down game play too much. i was trying to design something fun that barely affected the current system. because the chances of any of the bad stuff happening are 1/400 (natural one is 1/20 and hten bad stuff is 1/20). since it won't be happening a lot it won't slow down gameplay, but when it does happen everyone will be watching the dice to see what happens. I might tend to disagree simply because my system will have fewer die rolls than yours. You roll 1d20, reroll on a 1 or 20 to resolve the threat to critical hit or fumble... per attack (plus you use three dice: 1D20, and 1d%.) I roll 1d20, 1 and 20 set the threat for the entire round... so each subsequent attack roll is a resolution to the threat (and I use only 1d20.) Hypothetically, a 15th level fighter in your system could make 6 rolls in one round if he critically hit or miss each attack. not to mention that your system has a built in re-roll at d%96-100... so your system could re-roll indefinitely, however unlikely. The same 15th level fighter in my system could make no more than 4 rolls in one round (barring the threat to instant kill) since the first attack roll determines the threat to crit or fumble for the whole round. In the end, it's kind of the same... both of us re-roll ONLY if the first roll is a 1 or 20. You just do it every attack... which gets back into Fargren's point that this causes a higher volume of critical fumbles for higher level fighters. And on a side note, again, per my personal style of play... I don't like charts that dictate actions that I feel either my players or I could be describing with more flourish... so I see your critical fumble chart as a limiting factor as in it would tend to supercede my roleplaying descriptions of the flow of combat. PS- I just submitted a refined version of this system to Rengar's REpository. Wish me luck.
HailSpork 07-19-05, 04:13 AM	If you're making a random chart, there is no point in including a section to reroll into the same chart. In a few of the games I play in, we do a critical botch confirm role. If you miss on that role, only then is it a critical botch. Otherwise, you run into the problem where a level 16 fighter is almost 4 times as likely to botch in a round as a level 5 fighter.
Snarf1 07-19-05, 07:32 AM	In our group, we require a DC10 reflex save on a natural 1 to see if you have a critical fumble. The PCs are high enough level that this doesn't usually happen unless they roll a 1 on their save. If the PC fails the save, I roll a d10 to see which square the weapon might go into. (1 = forward and to the left, 2 = one square forward, 5 = the character's own square, 10 = the weapon travels two squares, unless it hits something in the first square, so roll agan twice). If a creature is in that square, the fumbling PC makes a normal to hit roll. On a miss, the weapon lands on the ground in that square.
Elvintry 07-19-05, 11:37 PM	I have my players do as such: On a roll of a natural 1 the player rolls again. If another 1 is rolled then the weapon breaks (if non-magical) or is dropped (if magical). If a 20 is rolled on the second roll then the attack hits for normal damage. Anything rolled inbetween, the player just misses. If natural 20 is rolled then the player rolls again. If another natural 20 is rolled the weapon deals one mulitiplier higher (x2 becomes x3 and x3 becomes x4). If he doesn't then it's just a critical hit if he hits. The player gets another roll. If another natural 20 is rolled then the weapon deals another multiplier higher (x3 becomes x4 and x4 becomes x5) or it's an automatic decap (depending on my mood and the pace of the fight). If he rolls a 1 following any roll of twenty then the critical multiplier is reduced by 1 (x2 becomes x1, x3 becomes x2, x4 becomes x3 etc.). Of course the standard crit. rules apply as well. Like if the player rolles a threat for crit but not a natural 20 then he rerolls but does not gain the increased crit multiplier, but can suffer the reduced multipier if he rolls a 1. I have had several players roll three natural 20s in a row.