Critical threat range variant: Keen and Improved Critical [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critical threat range variant: Keen and Improved Critical [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sakaki22
05-02-05, 01:40 AM Mechanically, I can understand why Keen and Improved Critical do not stack in 3.5; Critical threat ranges like 10/12-20 are sick and shouldn't exist. A character shouldn't be able to deal double or triple or quadruple damage half of the time.. But flavor wise, it never made sense; Keen is the build of the weapon, Improved Critical is the knowledge of how to use it. So I offer these variants of Improved Critical, Keen Edge, and Keen. (Bold where altered, all originally from the SRD)

============

IMPROVED CRITICAL [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon.
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, you gain a +1 Proficiency bonus to the weapons critical threat range, as well as a +1 bonus to confirm critical hits. A weapon with a 20 range becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 18-20, and so on.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Keen Edge
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation gives the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to it's critical threat range. A threat range of 20 becomes 19–20, a threat range of 19–20 becomes 18–20, and a threat range of 18–20 becomes 17–20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.) You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Keen: This ability gives the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to it's critical threat range. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll).
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +2000gp.

============

I did alter Keen from being a +1 bonus to costing a flat +2000gp. Since this version of Keen is potentially two or three times weaker, I considered it fair to cost two or three times less money. Also, since this variant creates a "Proficiency" bonus, I would consider feats such as the Weapon Focus tree to also give "Proficiency" bonuses.

Mechanically, this formula could be weaker then critical hits by the RAW. An 18-20 weapon with Improved Critical becomes a 15-20 by the RAW, while my variant makes it so that an 18-20 with Improved Critical AND Keen is only a 16-20. A 15-20 is a critical one out of every four hits. A 16-20 is a critical one out of every five hits. So with this variant, you will score less critical hits overall. However, flavor wise, I think it makes more sense.

Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
HailSpork
05-02-05, 03:26 AM Something to keep in mind, this makes it more powerful to use a scythe than a scimitar or such. In fact, a scythe will still have all of the original power from 3.0.
fish_heads
05-02-05, 03:38 PM I like the idea behind it, but I think that it severely weakens the appeal of the 18-20 weapons, like the scimitar and the rapier. Perhaps making the feat simply add +1 to the range while keeping the keen enchantment the same would do what you're trying to do without too severely unbalancing the game.
Krothos
05-02-05, 05:40 PM Here's an idea....

The Improved Critical feat would apply the +1 to the critical threat roll in addition to +1 to the critical threat range of the weapon. Gives the better chance to crit when a threat is rolled.

OR....

The feat applies a flat +2 to the threat roll instead of increasing the threat range of the weapon.

My $.02.
Sakaki22
05-04-05, 12:34 AM Krothos: I like that first one. It actually adds to the flavor of a "proficiency" bonus. I'll edit that in some other time.

As for altering Keen (fish_heads), I'm trying to avoid "doubling" threat ranges.

... Hmm...

What about a +2 (instead of +1 or double) version of Keen with a higher caster level and weapon bonus?
Kintara
05-04-05, 01:14 AM Something to keep in mind, this makes it more powerful to use a scythe than a scimitar or such. In fact, a scythe will still have all of the original power from 3.0.I actually like that. Rapiers will still be popular, and scythes could use a bit of a boost, imo.
James Wildspell
05-04-05, 01:50 AM I like the idea behind it, but I think that it severely weakens the appeal of the 18-20 weapons, like the scimitar and the rapier. Perhaps making the feat simply add +1 to the range while keeping the keen enchantment the same would do what you're trying to do without too severely unbalancing the game.

Two points:
1: I would make the Feat more powerful than the magic because, I feel, if a magical effect mimics a Feat, the Feat should be more potent.
2: According to the RAW, 19-20 is already doubled, 18-20 is trebeled. Doubling either one still nets a +1 to the threat range.

The language in the RAW could use some clarification on this, but if I were running the game, that is how I would rule.
Krothos
05-04-05, 09:11 AM Two points:
2: According to the RAW, 19-20 is already doubled, 18-20 is trebeled. Doubling either one still nets a +1 to the threat range.

The language in the RAW could use some clarification on this, but if I were running the game, that is how I would rule.

Could you post a link to this language? I would be interested to read this myself, as I don't remember seeing this. I've always been to the understanding that if you double the critical range of a weapon that already has 18-20, it then becomes 15-20 (3 of 20 becomes 6 of 20). And all the programs I've view, including eTools, also do it this way.
:confused:
DrMorganes
05-04-05, 11:35 PM As far as the Doubling a Double goes, Krothos has it right: the RAW have always maintained that doubling a double equals a triple. This is because you don't double the doubled number (that is, New Threat <> (Old Threat x 2) x 2 ) - you apply the original double in an additive manner (or New Threat = (Old Threat x 2 ) + (Old Threat x2)). Ferexample:

If a weapon threatens a critical on a natural 20 only (on 1 number out of 20), doubling this range threatens on a 19 or 20 (2 numbers out of 20). Doubling this again nets 3 numbers out of 20 (18-20) NOT 4 of 20 (17-10). In the case of the higher threat weapons like rapiers, the original threat is 18-20 (3 numbers). Doubled this becomes 15-20 (6 numbers). Doubled again would be 9 numbers out of 20, not 12.

I like the idea of Improved Critical and Keen Edge stacking in some manner, though tripling the Threat Range of any weapon is simply obscene. Therefore, I house-ruled it this way:

A Keen weapon or Improved Critical by itself works as written. A character with both gets the full effect of the Improved Critical Feat and a +1 to the Threat Range from the Keen edge on the weapon - period. This in my mind keeps the focus on the feat (which is far more useful in general terms), enforcing the idea that a Keen weapon still is more dangerous than a non-Keen weapon of the same type, and keeps threat ranges from progressing to the point that ANY hit is a critical threat. (Though in the case of rapiers it still comes close... ;) )
Utric Aelnoth
05-05-05, 07:00 PM I dunno, keen and improved critical stacking is what makes some weapons, who have pitiful damage to begin with, all the more popular, and why the duelist in 3.0 was such an arse-kicker. If he possessed a keen rapier with an improved critical feat, he'd crit anywhere from 9 to 20, and oh joy, only deals 2d6 (original format) or simply 1d6 x 2. The house rule my troupe uses stipulates that, no matter whatthe threat range, only a dead 20 is an automatic hit. So a keen rapier in the hands of said duelist can crit every day and still do the base damage, unless he rolls a dead 20.

It confused me to start with, but I suppose altering it to a proficiency bonus would be the better way to go, since most players don't roll automatic 20s day in, day out, and it works for the "luck of the strike" flavored campaigns.
sooperspook
05-05-05, 07:58 PM Well a crit isnt a crit unless it actually hits. So if your weapon has a 15-20 crit range and you roll a 16 but still dont hit the AC , you still dont crit.

You could have a weapon that threats on a 12 and still not crit if you can't hit anything with it!
HailSpork
05-06-05, 05:03 AM The house rule my troupe uses stipulates that, no matter whatthe threat range, only a dead 20 is an automatic hit.
I do not believe that is a house rule.
rbrt_Spade
05-06-05, 10:41 AM keen weapons and inproved crit. dont stack???? is this only in 3.5 because I think it stacks in 3.0
Sakaki22
05-06-05, 10:48 PM No, rbrt_Spade, Keen and Improved Critical do not stack in 3.5 for obvious reasons.

Anyway, I edited in my change to the first post a few days ago and I'm happy with them the way they are right now.

Thank you all for helping me adjust this idea out. I think it is fairly balanced in comparison to the RAW, and makes interesting flavor.
Chemlak
05-09-05, 08:51 AM Ultric Aelnoth - The best Threat Range a Rapier User could get in 3.0 was the Weapon Master, surely? 10-20/x2 from: 18-20 doubled to 15-20 by Improved Crit, Trippled to 12-20 by Keen, then an additional +2, making it 10-20/x2 from the class ability which name I can't remember right now. Yeah, they kicked butt, and power attack could bankrupt any DM who uses high HD, low CR creatures, but it ain't any better than a 55% chance of a crit.
Kintara
05-09-05, 01:39 PM Ultric Aelnoth - The best Threat Range a Rapier User could get in 3.0 was the Weapon Master, surely? 10-20/x2 from: 18-20 doubled to 15-20 by Improved Crit, Trippled to 12-20 by Keen, then an additional +2, making it 10-20/x2 from the class ability which name I can't remember right now. Yeah, they kicked butt, and power attack could bankrupt any DM who uses high HD, low CR creatures, but it ain't any better than a 55% chance of a crit.You can triple your threat range with the Disciple of Dispater 8, it stacks with Improved Crit, and you have barely enough levels to take Weapon Master 7 for +2. At level 20, that's 7-20. And before it got errataed, bladed guantlets gave a 17-20 threat range, which was even more ridiculous.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sakaki22 05-02-05, 01:40 AM	Mechanically, I can understand why Keen and Improved Critical do not stack in 3.5; Critical threat ranges like 10/12-20 are sick and shouldn't exist. A character shouldn't be able to deal double or triple or quadruple damage half of the time.. But flavor wise, it never made sense; Keen is the build of the weapon, Improved Critical is the knowledge of how to use it. So I offer these variants of Improved Critical, Keen Edge, and Keen. (Bold where altered, all originally from the SRD) ============ IMPROVED CRITICAL [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon. Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8. Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, you gain a +1 Proficiency bonus to the weapons critical threat range, as well as a +1 bonus to confirm critical hits. A weapon with a 20 range becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 18-20, and so on. Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats. Keen Edge Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation gives the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to it's critical threat range. A threat range of 20 becomes 19–20, a threat range of 19–20 becomes 18–20, and a threat range of 18–20 becomes 17–20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.) You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw. Keen: This ability gives the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to it's critical threat range. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll). Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +2000gp. ============ I did alter Keen from being a +1 bonus to costing a flat +2000gp. Since this version of Keen is potentially two or three times weaker, I considered it fair to cost two or three times less money. Also, since this variant creates a "Proficiency" bonus, I would consider feats such as the Weapon Focus tree to also give "Proficiency" bonuses. Mechanically, this formula could be weaker then critical hits by the RAW. An 18-20 weapon with Improved Critical becomes a 15-20 by the RAW, while my variant makes it so that an 18-20 with Improved Critical AND Keen is only a 16-20. A 15-20 is a critical one out of every four hits. A 16-20 is a critical one out of every five hits. So with this variant, you will score less critical hits overall. However, flavor wise, I think it makes more sense. Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
HailSpork 05-02-05, 03:26 AM	Something to keep in mind, this makes it more powerful to use a scythe than a scimitar or such. In fact, a scythe will still have all of the original power from 3.0.
fish_heads 05-02-05, 03:38 PM	I like the idea behind it, but I think that it severely weakens the appeal of the 18-20 weapons, like the scimitar and the rapier. Perhaps making the feat simply add +1 to the range while keeping the keen enchantment the same would do what you're trying to do without too severely unbalancing the game.
Krothos 05-02-05, 05:40 PM	Here's an idea.... The Improved Critical feat would apply the +1 to the critical threat roll in addition to +1 to the critical threat range of the weapon. Gives the better chance to crit when a threat is rolled. OR.... The feat applies a flat +2 to the threat roll instead of increasing the threat range of the weapon. My $.02.
Sakaki22 05-04-05, 12:34 AM	Krothos: I like that first one. It actually adds to the flavor of a "proficiency" bonus. I'll edit that in some other time. As for altering Keen (fish_heads), I'm trying to avoid "doubling" threat ranges. ... Hmm... What about a +2 (instead of +1 or double) version of Keen with a higher caster level and weapon bonus?
Kintara 05-04-05, 01:14 AM	Something to keep in mind, this makes it more powerful to use a scythe than a scimitar or such. In fact, a scythe will still have all of the original power from 3.0.I actually like that. Rapiers will still be popular, and scythes could use a bit of a boost, imo.
James Wildspell 05-04-05, 01:50 AM	I like the idea behind it, but I think that it severely weakens the appeal of the 18-20 weapons, like the scimitar and the rapier. Perhaps making the feat simply add +1 to the range while keeping the keen enchantment the same would do what you're trying to do without too severely unbalancing the game. Two points: 1: I would make the Feat more powerful than the magic because, I feel, if a magical effect mimics a Feat, the Feat should be more potent. 2: According to the RAW, 19-20 is already doubled, 18-20 is trebeled. Doubling either one still nets a +1 to the threat range. The language in the RAW could use some clarification on this, but if I were running the game, that is how I would rule.
Krothos 05-04-05, 09:11 AM	Two points: 2: According to the RAW, 19-20 is already doubled, 18-20 is trebeled. Doubling either one still nets a +1 to the threat range. The language in the RAW could use some clarification on this, but if I were running the game, that is how I would rule. Could you post a link to this language? I would be interested to read this myself, as I don't remember seeing this. I've always been to the understanding that if you double the critical range of a weapon that already has 18-20, it then becomes 15-20 (3 of 20 becomes 6 of 20). And all the programs I've view, including eTools, also do it this way. :confused:
DrMorganes 05-04-05, 11:35 PM	As far as the Doubling a Double goes, Krothos has it right: the RAW have always maintained that doubling a double equals a triple. This is because you don't double the doubled number (that is, New Threat <> (Old Threat x 2) x 2 ) - you apply the original double in an additive manner (or New Threat = (Old Threat x 2 ) + (Old Threat x2)). Ferexample: If a weapon threatens a critical on a natural 20 only (on 1 number out of 20), doubling this range threatens on a 19 or 20 (2 numbers out of 20). Doubling this again nets 3 numbers out of 20 (18-20) NOT 4 of 20 (17-10). In the case of the higher threat weapons like rapiers, the original threat is 18-20 (3 numbers). Doubled this becomes 15-20 (6 numbers). Doubled again would be 9 numbers out of 20, not 12. I like the idea of Improved Critical and Keen Edge stacking in some manner, though tripling the Threat Range of any weapon is simply obscene. Therefore, I house-ruled it this way: A Keen weapon or Improved Critical by itself works as written. A character with both gets the full effect of the Improved Critical Feat and a +1 to the Threat Range from the Keen edge on the weapon - period. This in my mind keeps the focus on the feat (which is far more useful in general terms), enforcing the idea that a Keen weapon still is more dangerous than a non-Keen weapon of the same type, and keeps threat ranges from progressing to the point that ANY hit is a critical threat. (Though in the case of rapiers it still comes close... ;) )
Utric Aelnoth 05-05-05, 07:00 PM	I dunno, keen and improved critical stacking is what makes some weapons, who have pitiful damage to begin with, all the more popular, and why the duelist in 3.0 was such an arse-kicker. If he possessed a keen rapier with an improved critical feat, he'd crit anywhere from 9 to 20, and oh joy, only deals 2d6 (original format) or simply 1d6 x 2. The house rule my troupe uses stipulates that, no matter whatthe threat range, only a dead 20 is an automatic hit. So a keen rapier in the hands of said duelist can crit every day and still do the base damage, unless he rolls a dead 20. It confused me to start with, but I suppose altering it to a proficiency bonus would be the better way to go, since most players don't roll automatic 20s day in, day out, and it works for the "luck of the strike" flavored campaigns.
sooperspook 05-05-05, 07:58 PM	Well a crit isnt a crit unless it actually hits. So if your weapon has a 15-20 crit range and you roll a 16 but still dont hit the AC , you still dont crit. You could have a weapon that threats on a 12 and still not crit if you can't hit anything with it!
HailSpork 05-06-05, 05:03 AM	The house rule my troupe uses stipulates that, no matter whatthe threat range, only a dead 20 is an automatic hit. I do not believe that is a house rule.
rbrt_Spade 05-06-05, 10:41 AM	keen weapons and inproved crit. dont stack???? is this only in 3.5 because I think it stacks in 3.0
Sakaki22 05-06-05, 10:48 PM	No, rbrt_Spade, Keen and Improved Critical do not stack in 3.5 for obvious reasons. Anyway, I edited in my change to the first post a few days ago and I'm happy with them the way they are right now. Thank you all for helping me adjust this idea out. I think it is fairly balanced in comparison to the RAW, and makes interesting flavor.
Chemlak 05-09-05, 08:51 AM	Ultric Aelnoth - The best Threat Range a Rapier User could get in 3.0 was the Weapon Master, surely? 10-20/x2 from: 18-20 doubled to 15-20 by Improved Crit, Trippled to 12-20 by Keen, then an additional +2, making it 10-20/x2 from the class ability which name I can't remember right now. Yeah, they kicked butt, and power attack could bankrupt any DM who uses high HD, low CR creatures, but it ain't any better than a 55% chance of a crit.
Kintara 05-09-05, 01:39 PM	Ultric Aelnoth - The best Threat Range a Rapier User could get in 3.0 was the Weapon Master, surely? 10-20/x2 from: 18-20 doubled to 15-20 by Improved Crit, Trippled to 12-20 by Keen, then an additional +2, making it 10-20/x2 from the class ability which name I can't remember right now. Yeah, they kicked butt, and power attack could bankrupt any DM who uses high HD, low CR creatures, but it ain't any better than a 55% chance of a crit.You can triple your threat range with the Disciple of Dispater 8, it stacks with Improved Crit, and you have barely enough levels to take Weapon Master 7 for +2. At level 20, that's 7-20. And before it got errataed, bladed guantlets gave a 17-20 threat range, which was even more ridiculous.