Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Movanic 12-05-07, 02:24 PM	This is not an attack on this most beloved of abilities (well it kind of is, but I don't want a horse head in my bed tomorow... :gah: ) I've always had a difficult time with precision damage (mainly crits and sneaks) being either random or dependable (crits V. sneaks). It hurst my suspension of disbelief at times :twitch:. On this line, I was wondering if anyone had worked on a way of intergrating the Rogue's precision damage in the Crit mechanic. As you can see, this is extremely rough. I understand that, as it stands, this would lead to a great many "falshion, high Strength Rogues", but it is a direction I feel is worth some exploration (the mechanic, not the high Strength Rogues... ;) ) I understand this may be insanely hard to balance, but I am curious. Perhaps something along the lines of: - Every time you would get +1d6 sneak you instead gain +1 threat range. - Every "third die" would increase your weapon's critical multiplier by 1. - The circumstances to gain these bonuses would be the same as those to gain sneak attack damage. Threat Bonus = (Level+1)/crit multiplier [(at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Threat bonus] x2 => +10 | x3 => +7 | x4 => +5 Bonus crit dmg = Level/3 - wp crit mult [(at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Crit dmg bonus] x2 => +4d6 | x3 => +3d6 | x4 => +2d6 Damage at 20th (Assumptions : Str 20, +5 keen wp. Wps : rapier, hand axe, light pick.) 13.5 x2 (6-20) +6d6 => 27x100% + 14 = 41 13.5 x3 (12-20) +5d6 => 40.5x80% + 10.5 = 42.9 13.5 x4 (14-20) +4d6 => 54x60% + 7 = 39.4 Current Proposition When the opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC or when you flank a foe, you gain the following benefits to your attacks with a light weapon: Threat Bonus = (Level+1)/crit multiplier (at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Threat bonus x2 => +10 | x3 => +7 | x4 => +5 Bonus crit dmg = Level/3 - wp crit mult (at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Crit dmg bonus x2 => +4d6 | x3 => +3d6 | x4 => +2d6 Damage at 20th (average base damage with 1d6 = 13.5, and keen) 13.5 x2 (6-20) +6d6 => 27x100% + 14 = 41 13.5 x3 (12-20) +5d6 => 40.5x80% + 10.5 = 42.9 13.5 x4 (14-20) +4d6 => 54x60% + 7 = 39.4 Other proposed rule A critical hit adds an amount of the weapon's base damage equal to the weapon's critical multiplier. This replaces the regular bonus damage granted by a critical hit. (Ex: Dagger crit = +2d4. Battleaxe crit = +3d8)
Grod_The_Giant 12-05-07, 03:39 PM	Well, let's look at the math. At 20th level, a rogue with a Keen rapier would do (1d6+whatever/16-20x2)+10d6. With your mechanic, they'd have 1d6+whatever/6-20x5. Assuming a +5 enhancement bonus and a +5 ability... Average damage with normal: 13.5+35=48.5. Critical hit: 75 on a 16-20 Average damage with yours: 13.5. Critical: 67.5 on a 6-20. As you can see, the damage on a non-critical for your version is fairly low. However, given the rogue's medium base attack bonus, its unlikely that below a 6 will even hit. 15 base+10 ability+5 enhancement+1 feat= +31 attack. Sample CR 20 armors: 39, 35, 36, 40, 35. The required roll is usually between a 5 and a 10. So, basically, a rogue's hit range, so to speak, is the same as his critical range. Just about every hit will be a critical, doing an average damage of 67.5- between a 55 and an 80. Compare that with the average of 48.5, between 21 and 76 damage a sneak attack rogue will do in most situations. If he criticals, it will still only be between 34 and 92. Your version brings extra power to the well-balanced rogue. Not a huge difference, but it is a significant upgrade. Average damage goes from 48.5 to 67.5, a major improvement. And, with the eventual +10 to threat range, there is almost no chance a rogue will NOT critical.
Movanic 12-05-07, 10:39 PM	Average damage with normal: 13.5+35=48.5. Critical hit: 75 on a 16-20 Average damage with yours: 13.5. Critical: 67.5 on a 6-20.It would then appear that the main problem lies with the increase of the multiplier. A "direct" crit damage increase could be a solution... Say +1d6 every forth level instead of the multiplier increase. Intuitive enough - or would you suggest a flat bonus (to speed-up game play.) The thing then becomes : average 20th Rogue : 48.5 dpr this 20th rogue : 13.5x2(will ~always~ crit) + 5d6 = 44.5 dpr Humm... I'm starting to see this as a realistic house rule (that is, worthy of game testing). Thanks a million!
White_Whale 12-06-07, 12:21 AM	This houserule favors low threat range weapons over large threat range weapons, due to the multiplier range. In Grod_the_Giant's example, instead consider a pick: 1d6+whatever/9-20x7 Average damage: 13.5, Critical: 108. Most hits will still be criticals (especially iterative attacks). As written, I feel that this houserule opens for abuse, in particular at high levels.
Movanic 12-06-07, 12:17 PM	In Grod_the_Giant's example, instead consider a pick: 1d6+whatever/9-20x7 Average damage: 13.5, Critical: 108. As written, I feel that this houserule opens for abuse, in particular at high levels.I've never seen "x7" before! That is evil! But you are quite correct in that this rule requires others (which is always a bad sign.) But a simple "fix" could be that this ability can only be used with light weapons - or tie it with WpFiness. But then again, it doesn't do away with the small pick's x4... We would still get a : 13.5x4 + 5d6 = 54 + 17.5 = 71.5 dpr If I were to use a doubling of the threat range at widely spaced levels, this would function for the low threat/high crit. However, those levels would then be insanely beneficial for high threat/low crit. And a table for each weapon type would really bog down play... The probable fesability just went down a good many notches... :( Thanks for the input. :) ___________________________ New take! (With new minty cool Math flavour.) Threat Bonus = (Level+1)/crit multiplier (at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Threat bonus x2 => +10 | x3 => +7 | x4 => +5 Bonus crit dmg = Level/3 - wp crit mult (at 20th) Wp crit. mult => Crit dmg bonus x2 => +4d6 | x3 => +3d6 | x4 => +2d6 Damage at 20th (Assumptions : Str 20, +5 keen wp. Wps : rapier, hand axe, light pick.) 13.5 x2 (6-20) +6d6 => 27x100% + 14 = 41 13.5 x3 (12-20) +5d6 => 40.5x80% + 10.5 = 42.9 13.5 x4 (14-20) +4d6 => 54x60% + 7 = 39.4
UAMDB 12-06-07, 05:54 PM	You are also forgetting about creatures that are immune to sneak attack. This house rule over rides that, or causes alot of paperwork.
crow04 12-06-07, 07:39 PM	I've never seen a critter imune to sneak attack that was not also imune to crits
Movanic 12-06-07, 08:53 PM	I've never seen a critter imune to sneak attack that was not also imune to critsMe either. And in the Sneak Attack description, it clearly states that creatures immune to criticals are also immune to sneak attacks. That's the "crux" of my "dilema" they are, "in RL essence" the same thing : both represent hitting the guy at just the right time, at just the right place with just the right angle to make him feel whole new levels of pain: :D + :monk: --> :mymy: --> :eek:. The fact that one is random and the other "on demand" is what itches. :confused:
Teh_Ninja 12-07-07, 12:50 AM	The randomness of criticals is explained away quite simply, really. Your opponent is trying not to get hit. You only get a critical when he fails at doing that in a spectacular way, like by over-swinging, leaving himself wide open to gutting. A critical doesn't have to hit a vital area. It's basically like forcing your enemy to critically fumble so you can hit him squarely rather than the normal glancing blows that you'll land. A sneak attack takes special training and is not based on a guarding opponent. Indeed in order to be used the opponent must somehow be distracted. The attacker then hits a major artery, nerve cluster, or some other vital area. The difference between criticals and sneak attacks is really quite large and I think that the rules should be kept the way they are, but that's just me.
IceFractal 12-07-07, 04:57 AM	My problem with this is that it works very well for high-Strength Rogues that have a good amount of base damage, and very poorly for low-Strength dagger-using Rogues. It also favors weapons like greataxes, scythes, and picks over weapons like daggers and rapiers. This isn't the end of the world, but it does go against most people's idea of Rogue flavor. Sneak Attack, as is, just adds a flat modifier. But the critical version instead multiplies the existing base damage. So for instance: Rogue 20, old system. +5 rapier, average strength. Damage: 1d6+5 + 15% + 10d6 = ~45 average damage Rogue 20, old system. +5 scythe, high (22) strength. Damage: 2d4+14 + 15% + 10d6 = ~57 average damage. Better, but not enough to lose TWF. Rogue 20, new system. +5 rapier, average strength. Damage: 1d6+5 + 260% = ~22 average damage. Not a happy Rogue. Rogue 20, new system. +5 scythe, high (22) strength. Damage: 2d4+14 + 330% = ~62 average damage. Almost 3x as good - screw TWF. Note: I left Keen out of these calculations because it's unclear how it interacts with the extended critical range. If the extended crit range is treated as natural for the weapon, then Keen amps it to 2-20/x7 on the high end, and is a "must-have". If Keen only multiplies the natural crit range, then it makes a fairly small difference, although it does help high-range weapons like rapiers get closer to high-multiplier ones like picks.
Movanic 12-07-07, 09:54 AM	My problem with this is that it works very well for high-Strength Rogues that have a good amount of base damage, and very poorly for low-Strength dagger-using Rogues. It also favors weapons like greataxes, scythes, and picks over weapons like daggers and rapiers. This isn't the end of the world, but it does go against most people's idea of Rogue flavor.That is also my greatest concern... And what is the death of this idea. :ghosted: That multiplier mechanic looks like a good idea at first but anything that has "synergy" in a system as intricatly entwined as D&D makes it very hard to fiddle around with things. :banghead: I've also noticed that newer abilities seem to grant damage die as opposed to flat bonuses - I've interpreted this as a tacit agreement on the fact that the crit mechanic is problematic. (But this may be my biased view ;). I may be projecting : I've had a love-hate relation with the multiplication mechanic for some time now... Mostly because it is so fun! but breaks apart a good many ideas I'd like to try... :() Would it be to evil to change crits to deal an amount of extra base damage die equal to it's multiplier? (i.e. dagger = 3d4 crit. battleaxe = 4d8 crit.)
aikimiller 12-07-07, 10:04 AM	yeah, if your players are optimizers, this will completely change the flavor of rogue. Off the top of my head this simply screams a high str power attacking great axe build. -5 on power attack, with a strength of say 18, and on a crit your doing +16 x modifier which say at lvl 10 is x7, for 7d12+112. Granted, your not going to hit as often, but there are ways around that.
Movanic 12-07-07, 01:20 PM	I just edited the first post to include the various "versions". Makes life easier. :)
Rhialto 12-08-07, 02:39 AM	I think this takes away rogue flavour, not just from the pov of encouraging hig strength great-axe wielders, but also in terms of how they approach a fight. A rogue should be taking steps to plan that perfect strike, and if it is reduced to a critical hit roll, it takes away the planning that the player has to do.
calronmoonflower 12-08-07, 04:17 AM	You could just go the Unearthed Arcana route and replace the sneak attack dice with fighter feats.
runestar 12-08-07, 09:48 AM	You could just go the Unearthed Arcana route and replace the sneak attack dice with fighter feats. Won't that make rogues worthless? Sneak attack is there exactly to augment their pitiful damage output. I can't imagine what feats could even come close to matching this.:confused:
Movanic 12-09-07, 03:26 PM	A rogue should be taking steps to plan that perfect strike, and if it is reduced to a critical hit roll, it takes away the planning that the player has to do. I'll make it clearer that you need the same circumstances to gain the proposed benefits as you would need to gain sneak attack damage. :)