Critzise my Mass Combat Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critzise my Mass Combat Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Temrek
01-01-06, 05:38 PM Soon, my players will likely lead a force against an enemy force. I will not turn it into a wargame mind as I will focus on the PCs and not the army as a whole; but I still want a good way to solve the clashes between the larger forces, so I have written a special template to simplfy it for me. I want you to point out everything bad with it but keep in mind I have avoided to make it overly complex as it is not the focus of the game at all.

The Special Unit Template:

The Unit is a template that can be applied to a group of 10 creatures to form a single organized military unit. It only really works if all of its members have similar capabilities.
All members must of have at least one mode of movement in common.

Hit Points:
A unit has a HP value of the total of all members hp added together, and an hp threshold value equal to the member’s average hp. It’s important to keep track of its members as well.
The damage a unit has suffered divided by its HP threshold is the amount of casualties total it has taken. Exactly who is a casualty is up to the DM.

Size and Type:
A units size equals its members average size (so if half of its members are small and the rest are large the size is medium). The unit has the same creature type as the majority of its members.

Space/Reach:
Two creatures can now fit into the space a creature of the units size normally would have, the space the unit takes up is determined based on that . For example a unit of 20 humans or 10 ogres would normally take up 10 by 2 squares, as a unit they take up 5 by 2 squares. The reach is what it normally would be for a creature of the units size. If the unit has taken 2 or more casualties remember to reduce the space the unit takes up accordingly.

Speed:
The unit has a speed equal to its slowest member. If not all members possess a mode of moment the unit does not retain that mode of moment.

Initiative:
The Units initiative equals the average initiative of its members.

AC:
The units AC equals the average AC of all its members.

Base Attack/Grapple: A units base attack equals the average base attack of all its members. Base attack only affects the members number of attacks and not the actual attack bonus.

For now, a unit cannot nor can grapple.

Attack/Full attack: A units attack bonus equals the members average. The units damage for each type of attack equals the members average, and each hit always deals average damage.

Whenever a unit is trying to attack creature (whether another unit or not) determine how many of its members can reach the target, for a medium sized unit it is 2 per square that could reach the target if it was an independent creature with the same reach as a unit. Make an attack roll with a circumstance bonus equal to the amount of members that can reach the target – 1. If it exceeds the targets AC the unit has scored a single hit, for each 2 points the attack roll exceeds the targets AC an additional hit is scored. If the attack roll is within the attacks threat range, make a confirmation roll if you beat the targets AC a single critical hit is scored, for each 3 points the roll exceeds the targets AC an additional critical hit is scored up to the maximum of the total number of hits scored.

Ranged attacks can only be made as a volley of arrows. If firing a volley at another unit the volleys DC increases by 1 for each member participating in the volley beyond one. For each 2 points the target fails its reflex save by an additional hit is scored on the target unit. If the target unit has a Shield Bonus to AC it may add it to the reflex save. Normally only the first row can shoot, second row in some cases.

A unit has the attacks that the majority of its members has, so if it has 2 claw attacks make 2 claw attacks and add the circumstance bonus to each.

Ability Scores: They are not really important, they don’t actually modify anything: You can still use the member average for each ability score.

Saves: Use the member average for each saving throw.

Feats and Special Qualities: Feats and special qualities that grants numerical bonuses are already considered into the unit’s values. Other feats and special qualities are given to the unit only if the majority of each member has them. A unit receives special attacks only if the majority of its members has them.

Special: The unit has these special abilities:

Unit Anatomy: A unit takes quadruple damage from area of effect attacks. The total damage is quadrupled after any resistances or weaknesses are applied and saves are made.

If a save or die spell, fear effect or other thing that would alter a members behaviour or incapacitate them through means other then damage, each member affected saves as an individual. Each member that suffers the effect is removed from the unit, placed at a square adjecant to the unit and under then effect that was cast upon him or her, the unit suffers damage equal to its HP threshold for each member affected.

If the unit has a standard bearer it generally begins a battle in the heartened condition.

Here is a sample creature togther with its unit statistics for a unit of 40

Men-At-Arms (40)
Human Fighter 1/Unit of 40
Hit Die: d10+1 (6 hp) Unit: (240 hp, 6 threshold, 40 Members)
AC: 20 (+1 Dex, +5 Breastplate, +2 Heavy Wooden Shield, +2 Shield Wall)
Space/Reach: 5 by 5/5 Unit: 25 by 20/5
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 (30 without armor)
Attack: +5 Longsword (d8+2), + 3 Light Crossbow (d8)
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1
Special: Standard Bearer, Unit Anatomy
Skills: Knowledge (Strategy and Tactics, Nobility) + 5, Jump + 5, Climb + 5
Feats: Shield Wall, Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Phoenix Knight
01-01-06, 08:29 PM Theoretically, actual fighters are rare. Most common soldiers should be Warriors. So I'd say that that makes more sense for your unit. Characters special enough to have a PC class shouldn't normally be grouped in a unit, rather treated as unique individuals.

I only skimmed your basic rules, but I think you may find some relavent material in the Miniature's Handbook. I seem to recall there being some information on mass combat and using groups as single units when I read it. Your setup looks very similar to what I remember from that book.

Heroes of Battle also offers a wealth of advice on running games where there are many combatants but only the PCs really matter. There's also rules in there about Victory Points (or something along those lines), that allow the PCs to influence the course of a large battle without you having to actually handle large numbers of enemies, as that can really bog down the game.
Temrek
01-02-06, 08:20 AM Theoretically, actual fighters are rare. Most common soldiers should be Warriors. So I'd say that that makes more sense for your unit. Characters special enough to have a PC class shouldn't normally be grouped in a unit, rather treated as unique individuals.

I only skimmed your basic rules, but I think you may find some relavent material in the Miniature's Handbook. I seem to recall there being some information on mass combat and using groups as single units when I read it. Your setup looks very similar to what I remember from that book.

Heroes of Battle also offers a wealth of advice on running games where there are many combatants but only the PCs really matter. There's also rules in there about Victory Points (or something along those lines), that allow the PCs to influence the course of a large battle without you having to actually handle large numbers of enemies, as that can really bog down the game.

While I dont own the Minatures Handbook (but Ill see if I can get my hands on it sometime) I own Heroes of Battle and actually referenced the book a few times (such as with ranged attacks).

I am aware that most soliders are 1st level warriors and that fighters are much rarer, but then the unit is a group of Men-At-Arms (As far as I know, historically men-at-arms where highly trained soliders).

This template is mainly designed for unit vs unit combat rather then unit vs single character combat.
Xeviat-DM
01-02-06, 09:00 AM It sucks. And you misspelled criticize.

I'm kidding, you said criticize, so I did. :D

And here I was about ready to say you should read Mini's HB and Heroes of Battle, but you have read Heroes of Battle. Actually, I like your unit, it works well as a template, but I have a few suggestions. First, I think the unit should be made up of identical creatures, like a swarm; miniatures handbook suggests that units be made up of the same mini. A real world explaination is that the members of a unit have to train with each other and have identical training; even if one is elite, they function as a member of the unit when a part of the unit.

I'm not sure I like your methods of determining attacks: I think you should just determine how many attacks can be made against the target and roll that many attack rolls. I know you're attempting to speed things along, so just get a number of different colored d20s. Other than that, it looks great.
True Cavalier
01-03-06, 03:03 PM It looks great overall, though not terribly fast. Reminds me of a less complicated version (that is, no command rules, spell rules, morale rules) of the system in that Cry Havoc book.

Also, quadraple damage from area attacks? :o why... it's ok for 6 hit point soldiers but units made of high-hp creatures would suffer a bit, I think.
Temrek
01-03-06, 03:44 PM Considering that a unit needs to be of at least 10 creatures that is not so severe actually.

I would be glad to look at any suggestions to speed things up. I can look at units making 20 attacks in a single round, so with all the d20 I have (8 in total) it might be fast enough if I use average damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Temrek 01-01-06, 05:38 PM	Soon, my players will likely lead a force against an enemy force. I will not turn it into a wargame mind as I will focus on the PCs and not the army as a whole; but I still want a good way to solve the clashes between the larger forces, so I have written a special template to simplfy it for me. I want you to point out everything bad with it but keep in mind I have avoided to make it overly complex as it is not the focus of the game at all. The Special Unit Template: The Unit is a template that can be applied to a group of 10 creatures to form a single organized military unit. It only really works if all of its members have similar capabilities. All members must of have at least one mode of movement in common. Hit Points: A unit has a HP value of the total of all members hp added together, and an hp threshold value equal to the member’s average hp. It’s important to keep track of its members as well. The damage a unit has suffered divided by its HP threshold is the amount of casualties total it has taken. Exactly who is a casualty is up to the DM. Size and Type: A units size equals its members average size (so if half of its members are small and the rest are large the size is medium). The unit has the same creature type as the majority of its members. Space/Reach: Two creatures can now fit into the space a creature of the units size normally would have, the space the unit takes up is determined based on that . For example a unit of 20 humans or 10 ogres would normally take up 10 by 2 squares, as a unit they take up 5 by 2 squares. The reach is what it normally would be for a creature of the units size. If the unit has taken 2 or more casualties remember to reduce the space the unit takes up accordingly. Speed: The unit has a speed equal to its slowest member. If not all members possess a mode of moment the unit does not retain that mode of moment. Initiative: The Units initiative equals the average initiative of its members. AC: The units AC equals the average AC of all its members. Base Attack/Grapple: A units base attack equals the average base attack of all its members. Base attack only affects the members number of attacks and not the actual attack bonus. For now, a unit cannot nor can grapple. Attack/Full attack: A units attack bonus equals the members average. The units damage for each type of attack equals the members average, and each hit always deals average damage. Whenever a unit is trying to attack creature (whether another unit or not) determine how many of its members can reach the target, for a medium sized unit it is 2 per square that could reach the target if it was an independent creature with the same reach as a unit. Make an attack roll with a circumstance bonus equal to the amount of members that can reach the target – 1. If it exceeds the targets AC the unit has scored a single hit, for each 2 points the attack roll exceeds the targets AC an additional hit is scored. If the attack roll is within the attacks threat range, make a confirmation roll if you beat the targets AC a single critical hit is scored, for each 3 points the roll exceeds the targets AC an additional critical hit is scored up to the maximum of the total number of hits scored. Ranged attacks can only be made as a volley of arrows. If firing a volley at another unit the volleys DC increases by 1 for each member participating in the volley beyond one. For each 2 points the target fails its reflex save by an additional hit is scored on the target unit. If the target unit has a Shield Bonus to AC it may add it to the reflex save. Normally only the first row can shoot, second row in some cases. A unit has the attacks that the majority of its members has, so if it has 2 claw attacks make 2 claw attacks and add the circumstance bonus to each. Ability Scores: They are not really important, they don’t actually modify anything: You can still use the member average for each ability score. Saves: Use the member average for each saving throw. Feats and Special Qualities: Feats and special qualities that grants numerical bonuses are already considered into the unit’s values. Other feats and special qualities are given to the unit only if the majority of each member has them. A unit receives special attacks only if the majority of its members has them. Special: The unit has these special abilities: Unit Anatomy: A unit takes quadruple damage from area of effect attacks. The total damage is quadrupled after any resistances or weaknesses are applied and saves are made. If a save or die spell, fear effect or other thing that would alter a members behaviour or incapacitate them through means other then damage, each member affected saves as an individual. Each member that suffers the effect is removed from the unit, placed at a square adjecant to the unit and under then effect that was cast upon him or her, the unit suffers damage equal to its HP threshold for each member affected. If the unit has a standard bearer it generally begins a battle in the heartened condition. Here is a sample creature togther with its unit statistics for a unit of 40 Men-At-Arms (40) Human Fighter 1/Unit of 40 Hit Die: d10+1 (6 hp) Unit: (240 hp, 6 threshold, 40 Members) AC: 20 (+1 Dex, +5 Breastplate, +2 Heavy Wooden Shield, +2 Shield Wall) Space/Reach: 5 by 5/5 Unit: 25 by 20/5 Initiative: +1 Speed: 20 (30 without armor) Attack: +5 Longsword (d8+2), + 3 Light Crossbow (d8) Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10 Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1 Special: Standard Bearer, Unit Anatomy Skills: Knowledge (Strategy and Tactics, Nobility) + 5, Jump + 5, Climb + 5 Feats: Shield Wall, Weapon Focus (Longsword) Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Phoenix Knight 01-01-06, 08:29 PM	Theoretically, actual fighters are rare. Most common soldiers should be Warriors. So I'd say that that makes more sense for your unit. Characters special enough to have a PC class shouldn't normally be grouped in a unit, rather treated as unique individuals. I only skimmed your basic rules, but I think you may find some relavent material in the Miniature's Handbook. I seem to recall there being some information on mass combat and using groups as single units when I read it. Your setup looks very similar to what I remember from that book. Heroes of Battle also offers a wealth of advice on running games where there are many combatants but only the PCs really matter. There's also rules in there about Victory Points (or something along those lines), that allow the PCs to influence the course of a large battle without you having to actually handle large numbers of enemies, as that can really bog down the game.
Temrek 01-02-06, 08:20 AM	Theoretically, actual fighters are rare. Most common soldiers should be Warriors. So I'd say that that makes more sense for your unit. Characters special enough to have a PC class shouldn't normally be grouped in a unit, rather treated as unique individuals. I only skimmed your basic rules, but I think you may find some relavent material in the Miniature's Handbook. I seem to recall there being some information on mass combat and using groups as single units when I read it. Your setup looks very similar to what I remember from that book. Heroes of Battle also offers a wealth of advice on running games where there are many combatants but only the PCs really matter. There's also rules in there about Victory Points (or something along those lines), that allow the PCs to influence the course of a large battle without you having to actually handle large numbers of enemies, as that can really bog down the game. While I dont own the Minatures Handbook (but Ill see if I can get my hands on it sometime) I own Heroes of Battle and actually referenced the book a few times (such as with ranged attacks). I am aware that most soliders are 1st level warriors and that fighters are much rarer, but then the unit is a group of Men-At-Arms (As far as I know, historically men-at-arms where highly trained soliders). This template is mainly designed for unit vs unit combat rather then unit vs single character combat.
Xeviat-DM 01-02-06, 09:00 AM	It sucks. And you misspelled criticize. I'm kidding, you said criticize, so I did. :D And here I was about ready to say you should read Mini's HB and Heroes of Battle, but you have read Heroes of Battle. Actually, I like your unit, it works well as a template, but I have a few suggestions. First, I think the unit should be made up of identical creatures, like a swarm; miniatures handbook suggests that units be made up of the same mini. A real world explaination is that the members of a unit have to train with each other and have identical training; even if one is elite, they function as a member of the unit when a part of the unit. I'm not sure I like your methods of determining attacks: I think you should just determine how many attacks can be made against the target and roll that many attack rolls. I know you're attempting to speed things along, so just get a number of different colored d20s. Other than that, it looks great.
True Cavalier 01-03-06, 03:03 PM	It looks great overall, though not terribly fast. Reminds me of a less complicated version (that is, no command rules, spell rules, morale rules) of the system in that Cry Havoc book. Also, quadraple damage from area attacks? :o why... it's ok for 6 hit point soldiers but units made of high-hp creatures would suffer a bit, I think.
Temrek 01-03-06, 03:44 PM	Considering that a unit needs to be of at least 10 creatures that is not so severe actually. I would be glad to look at any suggestions to speed things up. I can look at units making 20 attacks in a single round, so with all the d20 I have (8 in total) it might be fast enough if I use average damage.