Crossing Out Cross-Class Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crossing Out Cross-Class Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eldritch_Id
12-09-07, 10:28 PM As a house rule, I'm considering dropping the class skill/cross-class skill system for 3.5 and making all skills class skills for all classes. Has anyone tried this? Were there any unexpected complications or problems? Thanks!
kuonji
12-10-07, 01:43 AM The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has.
UAMDB
12-10-07, 10:49 AM The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has.

What you basicly did was give everyone a human only feat for free. I see no problem with that as it does not really unbalance the game.

Making everything a class skill? I don't think would be a good idea. I think making some skills class skills for everyone is a good idea, ie spot and listen.

I would go with kuonji's idea if i were you.
BENEVOLENT_DM
12-10-07, 12:48 PM I don't see a big problem, I have used both ideas. You may get some non typical classes specializing in some different skills. The biggest abuse from what I can see is in UMD. Barbarians using wands of lightning bolt could be a little unbalancing.
RobbyPants
12-10-07, 01:56 PM I think everyone's already hit all the points I wanted to make. So long as it's uniformly applied, it should be fine.

I don't see a big problem, I have used both ideas. You may get some non typical classes specializing in some different skills. The biggest abuse from what I can see is in UMD. Barbarians using wands of lightning bolt could be a little unbalancing.
While I agree that UMD is probably the most abusable, I'm not too worried about melee users running around with direct damage. A typical barbarian should be doing lots more damage than the standard 5d6 save-for-half Lightning Bolt from a wand.
Eldritch_Id
12-11-07, 12:44 AM The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has.

I like that. Thanks!
mplindustries
12-11-07, 02:04 AM I have never run a game of 3.0 or 3.5 using cross-class skills, and it has never been a problem for me.

Here's what I've noticed.

Everyone takes spot and/or listen, but then many also take hide and move silently, so its pretty even. Likewise, sense motive is nearly a requirement, as nobody ever trusts any npc ever for any reason, and feinting is brutal if someone has Invisible Blade or even Improved Feint.

I never (was forced to) use(d) a battle map until recently, but now everyone also pretty much needs tumble if they don't have reach.

I have never had a problem with UMD, but I also don't usually include scrolls or wands or any of that ubiquitous magical junk, so its uses are limited.

Basically, it allows classes to be more customized. Want a smart fighter? Why can't he have studied theology in between sword lessons? How about a charismatic one? Nope, apparently no fighter ever lies or negotiates or interacts with people at all without trying to scare them.

With cross-class skills in place, it pretty much ensures that to be an effective guard, you would have to ditch fighter levels in exchange for ranger or rogue or something stranger to notice disturbances at your post.

I'm sure someone will bring up the fact that a fighter can do all those things, just not as well as a class that "should" be doing it. Unfortunately, for any kind of opposed check, a cross-class skill isn't much better than no skill at all, so in reality, no they can't.

Plus, remember that if there are no cross-class skills, your enemies get the same advantage. Worried about barbarians with wands of lightning? Well, your players should be just as worried the next time they come upon a warband (though I do agree that a barbarian should be doing a lot more damage otherwise, and can't use UMD while raging anyway, which it probably should be doing most of the time)

And if UMD still scares you, just declare that there are no cross-class skills except UMD.
highbulp
12-11-07, 02:09 AM And if UMD still scares you, just declare that there are no cross-class skills except UMD.

Or you could make skills that can be used untrained (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc) class skills for everyone. That way the special stuff like UMD stays special. Or a combination of methods (maybe all ranks cost 1pt, but cross-class, trained-only skills have the half max limit)

But yeah, what everyone else said about game balance is true.
Eldritch_Id
12-11-07, 02:16 AM Or you could make skills that can be used untrained (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc) class skills for everyone. That way the special stuff like UMD stays special.

That's perfect & that never would have dawned on me! I...I think I love you guys...
pigknight
12-21-07, 09:06 PM A little off-topic, but why isn't UMD a wiz/sorc skill?
navar100
12-22-07, 11:12 AM I like it, but the drawback is skills are not equally useful. For example, everyone will want to max Spot and possibly only the rogue will still want Decipher Script. Therefore, as DM you need to make all or most skills useful and have the more popular ones not be so necessarily maxed. For example, not every bad guy needs to have a high Hide skill such that when the fighter has +8 to spot total, that's enough for him for several levels. The rogue will keep his Spot maxed because he needs it more for his niche plus he has the skills points to spare. The rogue will still be the one to Spot the "important" bad guy who has the maxed Hide.

Meanwhile, Balance, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Use Rope, etc., should see some spotlight time. Don't overdo it to make them the new must have skills, but show just enough that all or at least most skills have their uses so that players can make interesting choices of where to place their skill points. Again, not setting high DCs over and over will allow players to diversify their skill point allocations so they'll be happy with a +6 total for several levels and not feel cheated they didn't max it to +15.
mustafathered
12-24-07, 09:44 PM A little off-topic, but why isn't UMD a wiz/sorc skill?

If it was, the logical next question would be, "Why isn't UMD a cleric / druid class skill?"

Wizards and sorcerers do arcane magic, not magic in general.
unundindur
12-30-07, 09:27 AM As a house rule, I'm considering dropping the class skill/cross-class skill system for 3.5 and making all skills class skills for all classes. Has anyone tried this? Were there any unexpected complications or problems? Thanks!

My group have done this since very early in 3.0, and there are no implications at all. It just makes sense, and makes bookkeeping simple.

There is one skill you may considder as a X class only, and that is use magic device. In our groups this is a rogue/bard/any story that makes sense only skill.

EDIT: some more or less important things to note: The light fighter likely takes tumble (which is well deserved), the wizard likely takes some social skills, and any multiclass character gets a well deserved boon.
CCS
01-02-08, 07:58 PM We ditched the idea of class/cross-class skills ages ago (way back in 1st ed AD&D).

Here in 3.5 we also ditched the notion of a skill cap per lv.

The only real side effect this has had? A reduction in bookkeeping.
VengefulGazeofGod
01-04-08, 04:48 AM I make Search, Spot, and Listen universal class skills as well as give everyone +2 skill points per level.
I do some other fun things with feats like give everyone a free feat at first level that has to be either a skill feat or skill focus.

Then I do stuff like...give a fighter actual class abilities....!!!
I know, how could I?!
:cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldritch_Id 12-09-07, 10:28 PM	As a house rule, I'm considering dropping the class skill/cross-class skill system for 3.5 and making all skills class skills for all classes. Has anyone tried this? Were there any unexpected complications or problems? Thanks!
kuonji 12-10-07, 01:43 AM	The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has.
UAMDB 12-10-07, 10:49 AM	The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has. What you basicly did was give everyone a human only feat for free. I see no problem with that as it does not really unbalance the game. Making everything a class skill? I don't think would be a good idea. I think making some skills class skills for everyone is a good idea, ie spot and listen. I would go with kuonji's idea if i were you.
BENEVOLENT_DM 12-10-07, 12:48 PM	I don't see a big problem, I have used both ideas. You may get some non typical classes specializing in some different skills. The biggest abuse from what I can see is in UMD. Barbarians using wands of lightning bolt could be a little unbalancing.
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 01:56 PM	I think everyone's already hit all the points I wanted to make. So long as it's uniformly applied, it should be fine. I don't see a big problem, I have used both ideas. You may get some non typical classes specializing in some different skills. The biggest abuse from what I can see is in UMD. Barbarians using wands of lightning bolt could be a little unbalancing. While I agree that UMD is probably the most abusable, I'm not too worried about melee users running around with direct damage. A typical barbarian should be doing lots more damage than the standard 5d6 save-for-half Lightning Bolt from a wand.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 12:44 AM	The system we tend to use is cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank rather then 2 but we keep the same max rank cap. Never caused any problems and it allows classes to expand their skills without overshadowing classes that are supposed to excel at certain skills; for example, a wizard could buy up their tumble skill but would only be able to have 1/2 the ranks the rogue has. I like that. Thanks!
mplindustries 12-11-07, 02:04 AM	I have never run a game of 3.0 or 3.5 using cross-class skills, and it has never been a problem for me. Here's what I've noticed. Everyone takes spot and/or listen, but then many also take hide and move silently, so its pretty even. Likewise, sense motive is nearly a requirement, as nobody ever trusts any npc ever for any reason, and feinting is brutal if someone has Invisible Blade or even Improved Feint. I never (was forced to) use(d) a battle map until recently, but now everyone also pretty much needs tumble if they don't have reach. I have never had a problem with UMD, but I also don't usually include scrolls or wands or any of that ubiquitous magical junk, so its uses are limited. Basically, it allows classes to be more customized. Want a smart fighter? Why can't he have studied theology in between sword lessons? How about a charismatic one? Nope, apparently no fighter ever lies or negotiates or interacts with people at all without trying to scare them. With cross-class skills in place, it pretty much ensures that to be an effective guard, you would have to ditch fighter levels in exchange for ranger or rogue or something stranger to notice disturbances at your post. I'm sure someone will bring up the fact that a fighter can do all those things, just not as well as a class that "should" be doing it. Unfortunately, for any kind of opposed check, a cross-class skill isn't much better than no skill at all, so in reality, no they can't. Plus, remember that if there are no cross-class skills, your enemies get the same advantage. Worried about barbarians with wands of lightning? Well, your players should be just as worried the next time they come upon a warband (though I do agree that a barbarian should be doing a lot more damage otherwise, and can't use UMD while raging anyway, which it probably should be doing most of the time) And if UMD still scares you, just declare that there are no cross-class skills except UMD.
highbulp 12-11-07, 02:09 AM	And if UMD still scares you, just declare that there are no cross-class skills except UMD. Or you could make skills that can be used untrained (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc) class skills for everyone. That way the special stuff like UMD stays special. Or a combination of methods (maybe all ranks cost 1pt, but cross-class, trained-only skills have the half max limit) But yeah, what everyone else said about game balance is true.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 02:16 AM	Or you could make skills that can be used untrained (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc) class skills for everyone. That way the special stuff like UMD stays special. That's perfect & that never would have dawned on me! I...I think I love you guys...
pigknight 12-21-07, 09:06 PM	A little off-topic, but why isn't UMD a wiz/sorc skill?
navar100 12-22-07, 11:12 AM	I like it, but the drawback is skills are not equally useful. For example, everyone will want to max Spot and possibly only the rogue will still want Decipher Script. Therefore, as DM you need to make all or most skills useful and have the more popular ones not be so necessarily maxed. For example, not every bad guy needs to have a high Hide skill such that when the fighter has +8 to spot total, that's enough for him for several levels. The rogue will keep his Spot maxed because he needs it more for his niche plus he has the skills points to spare. The rogue will still be the one to Spot the "important" bad guy who has the maxed Hide. Meanwhile, Balance, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Use Rope, etc., should see some spotlight time. Don't overdo it to make them the new must have skills, but show just enough that all or at least most skills have their uses so that players can make interesting choices of where to place their skill points. Again, not setting high DCs over and over will allow players to diversify their skill point allocations so they'll be happy with a +6 total for several levels and not feel cheated they didn't max it to +15.
mustafathered 12-24-07, 09:44 PM	A little off-topic, but why isn't UMD a wiz/sorc skill? If it was, the logical next question would be, "Why isn't UMD a cleric / druid class skill?" Wizards and sorcerers do arcane magic, not magic in general.
unundindur 12-30-07, 09:27 AM	As a house rule, I'm considering dropping the class skill/cross-class skill system for 3.5 and making all skills class skills for all classes. Has anyone tried this? Were there any unexpected complications or problems? Thanks! My group have done this since very early in 3.0, and there are no implications at all. It just makes sense, and makes bookkeeping simple. There is one skill you may considder as a X class only, and that is use magic device. In our groups this is a rogue/bard/any story that makes sense only skill. EDIT: some more or less important things to note: The light fighter likely takes tumble (which is well deserved), the wizard likely takes some social skills, and any multiclass character gets a well deserved boon.
CCS 01-02-08, 07:58 PM	We ditched the idea of class/cross-class skills ages ago (way back in 1st ed AD&D). Here in 3.5 we also ditched the notion of a skill cap per lv. The only real side effect this has had? A reduction in bookkeeping.
VengefulGazeofGod 01-04-08, 04:48 AM	I make Search, Spot, and Listen universal class skills as well as give everyone +2 skill points per level. I do some other fun things with feats like give everyone a free feat at first level that has to be either a skill feat or skill focus. Then I do stuff like...give a fighter actual class abilities....!!! I know, how could I?! :cool: