Post/Author/DateTime	Post
syrinth 12-09-05, 03:36 PM	I've been looking for a way to make the race/culture that you choose to play in my campaign be more meaningful then, woo look at me I'm "Asian". Thus, the following idea struck me. Alter the weapon proficiencies rules for certain cultures. For example: Anashans have training with Spiked Chains but have no concept of Short, Long, or Greatswords. Thus, for an Anashi, they treat Spiked Chains as being martial weapons and the various swords as being exotic. Yes I am aware that this would be somewhat more complex then the normal rules system but I was wondering what you guys think? Especially about the above example of the Anashi.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 04:16 PM	It's a cool idea, but a lot of work. If you're willing to go through all that, then go for it. However, one caution, some classes base their abilities off particular weapon-types. Your foreign race could take Exotic Weapon Master for a shortsword. That's not really a problem, but you should be aware how rules like that might change. The Shadar-Kai receive free Exotic Weapon Proficieny (Spiked Chain), and your post reminded me of that. It seems kind of like what you are talking about, so there is some precedent, although it is still exotic in their case.
syrinth 12-09-05, 04:22 PM	What are Shadar Kai? and yes, they would still basically be classified as martial or exotic as appropriate to avoid mass confusion but, for example, the Anashi treat Spiked Chain as being martial therefore all Anashi Fighters have access to the Spikes Chain but no training in the longsword. If they wanted to learn to use the longsword then they'd take maartial weapon proficiency(longsword). Or at least that's what I meant to say lol.
Phoenix Knight 12-09-05, 04:26 PM	The shadar-kai are a race of shadow-fey. They are found in the Fiend Folio. I think there was also a recent Dragon article on the race. They are cursed to be tied to the Plane of Shadow. I use them a fair amount in my campaign setting. I think if you change only what characters gain with Martial Weapon Prof., as you propose, and not what are martial weapons, you can avoid some complications in the rules. Though it feels a little wierd that a character that has Martial Weapon Proficiency as a class feature should need to take a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat. I guess it really makes sense, though.
syrinth 12-09-05, 04:28 PM	Yeah, it does seem a little wierd but so much easier then the proposed alternative. :D Besides, it's only wierd from an OoG perspective, in-game the Anashi, as an example, would consider longswords to be exotic.
Hodo 01-07-06, 05:57 PM	I've been looking for a way to make the race/culture that you choose to play in my campaign be more meaningful then, woo look at me I'm "Asian". Thus, the following idea struck me. Alter the weapon proficiencies rules for certain cultures. For example: Anashans have training with Spiked Chains but have no concept of Short, Long, or Greatswords. Thus, for an Anashi, they treat Spiked Chains as being martial weapons and the various swords as being exotic. Yes I am aware that this would be somewhat more complex then the normal rules system but I was wondering what you guys think? Especially about the above example of the Anashi. Usually easier to add weapon proficiencies to a culture than remove them. Shortswords, long swords, and greatswords do have some Asian analogues. Giveing them proficiency with an exotic weapon is fine, but give the other cultures a similar bonuses as well to help differentiate them from others. Or you could give each culture a list of simple and martial weapons. Any weapons not on that list are considered exotic to someone not from that culture.
Tetsubo 01-08-06, 01:42 AM	Doing this by culture i going to be a HUGE amount of work. If you pull it oof, I want a copy... :) Doing it my race, even sub-race, is much easier. I've started on a new campaign outline and I've done a bit of thid already... Dwarves: Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat Dwarven Waraxes and Dwarven Mauls (CW) as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. Elves: Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the Glaive, Short Sword, Longbow (including Composite Longbow), and Shortbow (including Composite Shortbow) as bonus feats. Halflings: Weapon Familiarity: Halflings may treat Skip Rocks and Warslings as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. Some of this is completely new and some is just a change from the norm.
syrinth 01-08-06, 04:20 AM	Heh I doubt it'll be as big of a challenge as all that. I pick a weapon, think of an interesting culture that would be attached to it and place it somewhere on the world. Like the aforementioned Anashi :D My group is going to be fighting an Anashi trip/disarm machine in our next session. ^_^ As for you wanting a copy, you can darn well help me out with a list of different cultures lol. :P
Tetsubo 01-08-06, 04:34 AM	Heh I doubt it'll be as big of a challenge as all that. I pick a weapon, think of an interesting culture that would be attached to it and place it somewhere on the world. Like the aforementioned Anashi :D My group is going to be fighting an Anashi trip/disarm machine in our next session. ^_^ As for you wanting a copy, you can darn well help me out with a list of different cultures lol. :P In all seriousness you might want to look at the FR setting. They human cultures used aren't bad. Change the names, tweak a few details, file off the serial numbers and POW! New cultures with only part of the required effort...
syrinth 01-08-06, 04:37 AM	I don't have any of the FR books :'(
Hodo 01-09-06, 03:14 PM	Or, rather than readjusting proficiencies for each ane every culture, simply add flavor text about what weapons are favored in what culture. The people who live by the ocean prefer spears and longbows. Through trade they have acquired other weapons and you can find adequate training to use them, but the spear and longbow remain ingrained in their fishing/whaling culture. People in the jungle use blowguns and axes with higher frequency. You can use other weapons, but the blowgun and poison darts and smaller weapons are simply more effective in the jungle. People in the mountains like crossbows and picks. The crossbows give more range for when your target is on another cliff or outcropping you can't immediately get to, and the pick can be used in times of desperation as a tool as well as a weapon. Keep in mind that many basic weapon concepts are near universal (club, dagger, shortsword, longsword, polearms, etc) and even weapons which we commonly associate with a certain culture weren't especially common except by a select few members of certain organizations or fighting disciplines, thereby rendering them exotic as well. Orcs don't usually gain automatic proficiency in Orc double axes, and Halflings don't gain such proficiencies with the Halfling skiprock or warsling. I would suggest trying to keep it simple and talking to each person individually about the flavor of their characters, rather than going through all the trouble of creating rules to form strichter standards from the beginning. PCs will always find new gear and earn new feats to replace starting equipment. You can always equip NPCs with culture appropriate weapons.
syrinth 01-09-06, 04:29 PM	Its the NPCs that Im more worried about. For example, as I said above, Im sending an Anashi fighter against them. Since he is an Anashi and a fighter he doesn't need to spend a feat to use the spiked chain. I need to set up these cultures so that Im not arbitrarily removing unwanted feats from my NPCs. I dont like cheating lol.
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-09-06, 07:52 PM	There is a reason that some weapons are classified as exotic, and its not because of the foriegn cultures that they come from...well, OK that not entirely true. What I'm trying to say is that exotic weapons or slightly more powerful than non-exotic weapons. They tend to have some special feature that makes them superior to martial weapons, thats the real reason they require a feat to use. Don't forget this when your making your rules. No one is going to want to take an exotic weapon proficiency to use a weapon that isn't good enough to be an expotic weapon. Taking a longsword as an exotic weapon is like taking a club as a martial weapon.
syrinth 01-09-06, 10:02 PM	Most people don't have to because they will automatically have the proficiency with it in most cases. Thus why I proposed the removal of all the swords for the Anashi. Add an exotic weapon and remove several martial weapons to move them to exotic. As I said, most of this is primarily for my own use when designing NPCs so that Im not arbitrarily creating characters without important feats. Furthermore, if a player wants to make use of these then they have to deal with the cultural implications of those foreign lands. Also, your point was the main reason why I created this topic to see if the general consensus was that it wouldn't be too overpowered. Meh, I don't think it's too overpowered as long as appropriate measures are taken, but I do like to see what everyone else thinks :D
Hodo 01-09-06, 11:47 PM	The spiked chain is a pretty significant weapon to take into account when designing encounters. It has reach and can be used adjacent, has nice damage, can be finessed, and can make trip attempts. I suppose I simply can't see how anyone can allow such a weapon in the hands of a PC or NPC and forget that it requires an exotic weapon proficiency feat to use. If you send a fighter from Anashi with a spiked chain at them, just remember that he's from Anashi. Turn his last feat into Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain). If you don't want fighters from Anashi using swords, don't give them swords. But using your method you have to know he's a fighter from Anashi and proficient in all martial weapons. Then you need to remember house rules that say that characters from Anashi consider spiked chains martial weapons. Then you need to remember that they consider swords exotic. If you can't remember that a culture that you yourself created prefers spiked chains to swords, then there are other issues one can forsee in the campaign. Like Rhul said, it also kind of messes with balance. Swords are very mundane and very common weapons. Many enemies use swords and drop them as loot. Many magical weapons found are swords of some kind. Most characters want to use swords. A smaller percentage would use spiked chains, even if they were considered martial weapons simply because they are less widely available. By giving them spiked chains and taking away swords, you may be making the Anashi "unique" and "trading in something good for something bad", but you are removing the ability to use a very common and very popular set of weapons for the ability to use a weapon many characters won't necessariily want.
syrinth 01-10-06, 03:32 AM	.........? "If you can't remember that a culture that you yourself created prefers spiked chains to swords, then there are other issues one can forsee in the campaign." I never said anything about forgetting. I said that I wanted clear-cut boundaries for my players to see so that they can't say CHEAT! "Like Rhul said, it also kind of messes with balance. Swords are very mundane and very common weapons. Many enemies use swords and drop them as loot. Many magical weapons found are swords of some kind. Most characters want to use swords. A smaller percentage would use spiked chains, even if they were considered martial weapons simply because they are less widely available. By giving them spiked chains and taking away swords, you may be making the Anashi "unique" and "trading in something good for something bad", but you are removing the ability to use a very common and very popular set of weapons for the ability to use a weapon many characters won't necessariily want." So I am removing a popular weapon and replacing it with an unpopular one, I fail to see the problem in that. As to why a PC Anashi would possibly want to use a sword is beyond me, one would assume that they wanted to be a spiked chain wielder even though they won't get many spiked chain drops. So far the logic is confusing me, in the same post you've said: "The spiked chain is a pretty significant weapon to take into account when designing encounters." and "you are removing the ability to use a very common and very popular set of weapons for the ability to use a weapon many characters won't necessariily want." As for the power of the spiked chain I once again concede that there may be a problem, I am not entirely sure about the relative power of the spiked chain and whether it would be a fair trade off to remove several significant martial weapons to ignore the feat normally required to take the spiked chain. As I said, I have no problems with constructive criticism and maybe I misunderstood you, but please try to maintain one stance as I really don't know what exactly it is that you're arguing for or trying to say. :confused: PS: I am sorry if I sounded snarky or something along those lines, I mean nothing by it if I do.
Tetsubo 01-10-06, 07:36 AM	There is a reason that some weapons are classified as exotic, and its not because of the foriegn cultures that they come from...well, OK that not entirely true. What I'm trying to say is that exotic weapons or slightly more powerful than non-exotic weapons. They tend to have some special feature that makes them superior to martial weapons, thats the real reason they require a feat to use. Don't forget this when your making your rules. No one is going to want to take an exotic weapon proficiency to use a weapon that isn't good enough to be an expotic weapon. Taking a longsword as an exotic weapon is like taking a club as a martial weapon. The problem is that there are two different definitions of "exotic" in the game. 1) Exotic as in odd to you or your culture. A Monk's Spade in Europe for example. 2) Exotic as in difficult to use. A three sectioned staff for example. Definition 1 doesn't need to be a better quality weapon than a martial weapon. What is exotic in country A is mundane in country B. Just because a weapon is transported from country B to country A doesn't mean it needs to be extra special in any way. Definition 2 does mean it needs to be special. To be worth the effort to learn to use the weapon in question. We (and the game rules) need to separate these two definitions. It would clear up a LOT of confusion. We also need to abolish the spiked chain... :)
Thelon Fairblade 01-10-06, 10:22 AM	So the Anashi warrior can't use swords. Make it a point of display, then -- perhaps the anashi is disarmed, with a sword lying next to him in easy reach, and his chain across the room.. he looks at the sword, then dives for his chain. Everyone else (PCs) will be thinking "what a fool!", but *there* is your balance. Anashi warriors would of course return to Anashi to get better spiked chains. They are "common drops" in Anashi, because that's the "longsword" of the culture. Swords weren't initially common weapons -- a sword has only one purpose, to kill other people. Reach and ranged weapons are used to kill animals, axes and picks and tridents (pitchforks) are tools, etc. However, "sword" is a general concept that applies equally to a broadsword, a drusus, a katana, a long jambaiya, a bowie knife, etc. The same applies to other generic weapon types (warclub, for example, or spear) for other cultures, so keep that in mind when doing this internal balance dance you're working on. Personally, I think it would be easier to follow the "elf" or "dwarf" core rules examples, rather than adding and removing weapons. "Anashi treat the Spiked Chain as a martial weapon" (i.e. Anashi warriors and fighters get it, clerics don't) or, more powerful, needs a balance "Anashi receive proficiency with the Spiked Chain as a bonus feat" (i.e. *every* Anashi gets it, and every Anashi will be using it). Taking away swords is not a balance unless you (the GM) engineer the one situation where it matters. The angle I have used in my all-human world, though, is to take away the human "Any" bonus feat. Instead, each culture has a limited selection of cultural bonus feats that can be picked. so maybe the anashi can choose one of "Spiked Chain, Skill Focus Tumble, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (no prereq), Skill Focus Survival, or Light Armor Prof". Most warriors will take Spiked Chain, but some characters will take Tumble, or Light Armor, or whatever.
syrinth 01-10-06, 12:24 PM	Just for the record, and in case ppl are still confused, the one I am talking about is this one: ""Anashi treat the Spiked Chain as a martial weapon" (i.e. Anashi warriors and fighters get it, clerics don't)" Any more help and input is graciously accepted. :D
Hodo 01-10-06, 01:15 PM	I never said anything about forgetting. I said that I wanted clear-cut boundaries for my players to see so that they can't say CHEAT! I aplogize for misunderstanding then. I thought you meant that you didn't want to send out a PC with a spiked chain who didn't have to take the feat, and therefore technically shouldn't have been able to use a spiked chain. So you would make sure to give everyone the feat so you would never make the mistake. I'm not sure what would lead your players to accuse you cheating simply for fielding a character that uses a spike chain (with appropriate feats) who is from a culture where training in and use of spiked chains is considered normal. Characters using exotic weapons and a bunch of feats but no exotic weapons feats would be cheating. So I am removing a popular weapon and replacing it with an unpopular one, I fail to see the problem in that. As for the power of the spiked chain I once again concede that there may be a problem, I am not entirely sure about the relative power of the spiked chain and whether it would be a fair trade off to remove several significant martial weapons to ignore the feat normally required to take the spiked chain.... So I am removing a popular weapon and replacing it with an unpopular one, I fail to see the problem in that. Spiked chains are powerful, but not as popular as swords. Much in the same way that druids are often more powerful than, but not as popular as fighters or rogues. Many characters and their concepts include in some form or another the dagger, shortsword, longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, katana, rapier, etc even if those there aren't really the "best" weapons from a mechanics point of view. Most creatures in the MM that use weapons use swords of some kind. Most weapon drops and magical weapons in the DMG and supplemental books are swords. There wasn't an axe in the stone. Lady in the lake didn't throw a spear. Sting and Anduril from Lord of the Rings weren't maces. Samurai in popular culture are practically synonomous with the katana, not the bow or any of the various polearms they used with more frequency on the battlefield. Luke Skywalker had a lightsaber as opposed to a lightclub. Most giant robots that have a big melee weapon usually have a sword. The weapon in the D&D logo is a sword. People like their swords. While you can take away or mitigate their ability to use swords by giving them other options, it is more difficult to "balance" popularity and appeal of such weapons. This is what I fell your players may resent. ........................................ ........................................ ...................................... But I suppose one of my stronger points (although not the most elaborated upon) was that it makes things needlessly more complex. There is already a "balance" for a character who takes the spiked chain. It requires the exotic weapon proficiency feat, and therefore, reduces the number of total feats they have to devote to other things to like weapon focus (longsword). They have specifically chosen to use the spiked chain instead of doing something else. Characters who want to use swords only have the flavor of the setting to limit them. It's simple, doesn't require any special house rules, and if challenged for any reason, gives you the advantage of having the RAW to fall back upon. Have you passed this by your players yet? What opinions have they expressed. In the end, I think this matters more than anything either of us could debate. ........................................ ........................................ .................................... And don't worry about sound snarky. This is the internet so I'm used to it :P I have pretty thick skin. I do appreciate the fact that you're making efforts not to sound sarcastic though.
Hodo 01-10-06, 01:25 PM	The problem is that there are two different definitions of "exotic" in the game. 1) Exotic as in odd to you or your culture. A Monk's Spade in Europe for example. 2) Exotic as in difficult to use. A three sectioned staff for example. Definition 1 doesn't need to be a better quality weapon than a martial weapon. What is exotic in country A is mundane in country B. Just because a weapon is transported from country B to country A doesn't mean it needs to be extra special in any way. Definition 2 does mean it needs to be special. To be worth the effort to learn to use the weapon in question. We (and the game rules) need to separate these two definitions. It would clear up a LOT of confusion. We also need to abolish the spiked chain... :) But irregardless of whether a weapon is rare/foriegn or simply harder to use, the common trait that most share is that they're somewhat more powerful than simple and martial weapons (not ALWAYS, but very often). This means that in order to get to use most of these weapons, characters must use up a feat. If you look at the Oriental Adventures book, most all presented in there are exotic, but they are much more prevelant there than they would be in a traditional European-esque DnD campaign. In the Forgotten Realms campaign, Halflings are noted as being especially good with slings, have their own more powerful version of the sling called the Warsling, and a prestige class devoted to slinging. But the warsling is still an exotic weapon. In the Iron Kingdoms D&D setting, guns are everywhere, but they are still considered exotic weapons and even require ranks in craft (smallarms) to use. It's largely a balancing feature.
syrinth 01-10-06, 01:36 PM	Okies, the consensus seems to be heading towards the: Even if you remove swords it's still too powerful to give to them "fore free". That being said there are a few more points I need to make to Hodo. 1) The Anashi, in this case, are a foreign people far removed from the land where the PCs currently are. Actually, they exist on another continent across the ocean so I don't understand why my PCs would resent them being unable to pick swords. Even if you of them chose to be an Anashi, I once again question why they would go out of their way to be an Anashi and THEN complain they can't use swords unless they want to have some roleplaying fun. Anyways. 2) Just in case it is not understood here is the feat list for the lvl 6 Human(Anashi) fighter I am sending against the PCs. Feats: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack one feat granted for each of the following: human, 1st lvl, 3rd lvl, 6th lvl, lvl 1 fighter, lvl 2 fighter, lvl 4 fighter, lvl 6 fighter. This equals 8 feats. Notice that the feat list given above has 8 feats. Also note that Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) is not there and that Whirlwind Attack would be impossible for a non-Anashi to gain at this level. I apologise if everyone already understands what I am trying to get and the example given above just serves to irritate you. I was getting the impression that there was still a bit of confusion. Anyways, any more thoughts/ideas? The group will be fighting the Anashi on Saturday and I don't want him to be unbalanced and broken and stuff. It'd be nice to get these rules done before then ^_^.
Hodo 01-10-06, 02:19 PM	Okies, the consensus seems to be heading towards the: Even if you remove swords it's still too powerful to give to them "fore free". That being said there are a few more points I need to make to Hodo. 1) The Anashi, in this case, are a foreign people far removed from the land where the PCs currently are. Actually, they exist on another continent across the ocean so I don't understand why my PCs would resent them being unable to pick swords. Even if you of them chose to be an Anashi, I once again question why they would go out of their way to be an Anashi and THEN complain they can't use swords unless they want to have some roleplaying fun. I was speaking in regards to the idea that a Anashi was a culture that a PC would commonly come from. Many games feature subraces and subcultures with modified traits for PCs, and I assumed you were doing the same. Apparently you are not. I assume that most Anashi met by the characters will be NPCs and that you would try to discourage players from choosing to be from that region (partially why they can't use swords). Now if they were PCs, people would complain about Anashi not using swords for the same reason people who played druids complained about druids not being able to use metal weapons (old rule), or why their Orcs have to have two negative modifiers (int and cha) in exchange for only one positive one (str). Characters generally prefer their races, classes, and whanot to have lots of options rather than more focused and limited ones for the sake of flavor/roleplay. 2) Just in case it is not understood here is the feat list for the lvl 6 Human(Anashi) fighter I am sending against the PCs. Feats: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack one feat granted for each of the following: human, 1st lvl, 3rd lvl, 6th lvl, lvl 1 fighter, lvl 2 fighter, lvl 4 fighter, lvl 6 fighter. This equals 8 feats. Notice that the feat list given above has 8 feats. Also note that Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) is not there and that Whirlwind Attack would be impossible for an non-Anashi to gain at this level. The simplest solution here would be to take away whirlwind attack. Make Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) his 1st feat and bump everything else up. If whirlwind attack is so terribly vital to this encounter, bump the fighter up a level or 2 so that he can get that extra feat. Although it will make him more of a challenge, it will not transform him into an unbeatable monster, especially if you just change some of his equipment (non masterwork weapon or less powerful magic item), reducing the number of minions with him, or giving the players more exp for defeating him. But what it looks like you've already done is you use your authority to change a set of rules regarding an entire culture so that you could fit feats into a build that normally wouldn't have them at the level? I would say that what you are currently doing is rather abusive (almost cheating) even if it's unintentional.
Thelon Fairblade 01-10-06, 03:03 PM	Some GMs, myself included, allow players to "tweak" their core classes. Like the swashbuckler wannabe who takes fighter, and trades both Medium and Heavy Armor for the Weapon Finesse feat. (of course, the first magical armor the party found was +1 full plate.... but that's another topic) Perhaps this Anashi warrior has done the same, trading off "all martial weapons" or "Medium and Heavy Armor and Shields" for "Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain".
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-10-06, 04:04 PM	I could pick up a sword right now and swing it at someone and not hurt myself. And even though I'm not what you would call "proficient" with it I could fight with it. The spiked chain on the other hand... well I wouldn't want to try swinging it around. Some weapons are just dangerous to use without special training, think about nunchukus then add spikes and make it more unwieldy. Even if you ignore how much more powerful a spiked chain is, its just far too difficult to wield without special training. So you have some options as I see it. 1. Do what you seem to want to do so badly. 2. Make an 1st level Anashi Fighter substitution level that grants them the feats Dodge and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) in place of the normally open bonus feat, and take away their heavy armor proficiency. 3. Cheat. Since when were DMs not allowed to cheat anyway? Don't you have a screen? Do you show your players the character sheats of the people they are fighting? Do they count the feats of the characters that they are fighting as they use them to make sure that your not cheating? 4. Make the character ninth level so you can give him the feat legitamitly and have him be slightly injured or poorly equiped to make him a little weaker. 5. Insitute a merit/flaws system, give him a flaw so he can take a bonus feat. But seriously, just make up your mind.
syrinth 01-10-06, 11:47 PM	Eeek, sensing some slight hostility here, hope I'm wrong BTW. Meh, if the consensus is that it's too powerful I guess I'll just abandon the idea.
Vahenir 01-11-06, 02:38 AM	I could pick up a sword right now and swing it at someone and not hurt myself. And even though I'm not what you would call "proficient" with it I could fight with it. It should be noted that I have seen -plenty- of people express that exact same sentiment.. pick up a sword.. and either hurt themselves, or severely damage the sword itself. It takes a lot more to be functionally capable of 'using' a weapon than most people are aware who have never actually tried to do so. To the OP: Why not just use Weapon Group Proficiency rules from Unearthed Arcana? You want to represent that Culture A has a tradition of spiked-chain wielders? Fine. Add the spiked chain to a Weapon Group and name it after Culture A. Rule that only members of a culture can take that culture's Weapon Group Proficiency. This allows lots of flavour without a lot of work.
syrinth 01-11-06, 12:53 PM	Hmmmm, sounds interesting, I'll definitely have to look into that.