Curious about the design of Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Curious about the design of Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jedi_Councilman
04-28-04, 12:38 PM Since picking up UA I've wondered about the decision to make the class bonuses to defense so high at 1st level compared to other systems using that mechanic. Star Wars and d20 modern both use charts starting at between a +1 and a +3 bonus whereas UA uses charts starting between +2 and +6.

Anyone have any insights?
Salla
04-28-04, 01:40 PM Best guess: it's due to some bizarre synergy/anti-synergy with the injury systems that the games use (D&D's basic HP, Star Wars' Wounds/Vitality, and whatevertheheckitisD20Modernuses, I've never played it).
Jack Daniel
04-28-04, 01:52 PM D&D assumes a fairly high AC at low levels. It's not hard for a fighter to get a suit of splint mail long before he reaches level 2, so a starting defense bonus of +6 makes sense.

In d20 Modern, defense and armor bonus stack so it's understandable that the bonus starts lower. As for Star Wars, armor doesn't provide a defense bonus at all -- it provides damage reduction, and has little to do with the class's defense bonus.
Jedi_Councilman
04-28-04, 01:54 PM Modern uses hit points with massive damge equal to Con. When taking massive damage you make Fort save DC 15 or be reuced to -1 HP.

If any thing I think those systems should have the higher AC due to the lethality.
Arthur_Pendragon
04-28-04, 01:57 PM Plus I think it has something to do with the fact you have alot of magic weapons about that can grant even more pluses to attacking, so a higher bonus balances that.
Jedi_Councilman
04-28-04, 01:58 PM Originally posted by Jack Daniel
D&D assumes a fairly high AC at low levels. It's not hard for a fighter to get a suit of splint mail long before he reaches level 2, so a starting defense bonus of +6 makes sense.

I guess that makes sense but I think I'd prefer charts that start lower and go higher.
Jack Daniel
04-28-04, 02:34 PM Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower.

I often use wounds & vitality or lower massive damage threshold, though, so the higher overall ACs help to offset the instant kill factor.
Jedi_Councilman
04-29-04, 11:58 AM Originally posted by Jack Daniel
Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower.

I like the sound of that but I'd restrict access to armor proficiency in my game. I'd probably give Fighters/Warriors only Light armor at 1st level.
Vanamir
04-30-04, 06:17 AM IMC we have a houserule that you get a competence bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your BAB from class levels which you loose when you are flatfooted or denied your dexterity bonus to AC. Up to now (my group is between 7th and 8th level) this system has worked very well and without any apparent balance problems.

Maybe i should add that i tend to dish out treasure sparingly and challenge my party with rather difficult encounters, so i do not know whether this is really a good system for everyone.
Nan Lung
04-30-04, 08:04 AM Originally posted by Jack Daniel
Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower.
factor. Query: What are the different defence bonuses in d20 Modern? I might try them instead.
Jack Daniel
04-30-04, 01:53 PM It's about 2/3 of a base attack bonus. The good progression is 1/2/2/3/4/4/5..., the medium progression is 1/1/2/2/3/3/4..., and the poor progression is 0/1/1/1/2/2/2....

One of the modern classes, the fast hero, has a special progression that's just 2 higher than the medium bonus (3/3/4/4/5/5/6...), which is good to use for unarmored monks.
Dartanel
05-01-04, 07:18 PM I think the main reason that d20 modern's defense bonuses are lower is because the character's attack bonuses are equally lower. Only one base class has an attack bonus of 1/1, and correspondingly few advanced and prestige classes have them either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jedi_Councilman 04-28-04, 12:38 PM	Since picking up UA I've wondered about the decision to make the class bonuses to defense so high at 1st level compared to other systems using that mechanic. Star Wars and d20 modern both use charts starting at between a +1 and a +3 bonus whereas UA uses charts starting between +2 and +6. Anyone have any insights?
Salla 04-28-04, 01:40 PM	Best guess: it's due to some bizarre synergy/anti-synergy with the injury systems that the games use (D&D's basic HP, Star Wars' Wounds/Vitality, and whatevertheheckitisD20Modernuses, I've never played it).
Jack Daniel 04-28-04, 01:52 PM	D&D assumes a fairly high AC at low levels. It's not hard for a fighter to get a suit of splint mail long before he reaches level 2, so a starting defense bonus of +6 makes sense. In d20 Modern, defense and armor bonus stack so it's understandable that the bonus starts lower. As for Star Wars, armor doesn't provide a defense bonus at all -- it provides damage reduction, and has little to do with the class's defense bonus.
Jedi_Councilman 04-28-04, 01:54 PM	Modern uses hit points with massive damge equal to Con. When taking massive damage you make Fort save DC 15 or be reuced to -1 HP. If any thing I think those systems should have the higher AC due to the lethality.
Arthur_Pendragon 04-28-04, 01:57 PM	Plus I think it has something to do with the fact you have alot of magic weapons about that can grant even more pluses to attacking, so a higher bonus balances that.
Jedi_Councilman 04-28-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Jack Daniel D&D assumes a fairly high AC at low levels. It's not hard for a fighter to get a suit of splint mail long before he reaches level 2, so a starting defense bonus of +6 makes sense. I guess that makes sense but I think I'd prefer charts that start lower and go higher.
Jack Daniel 04-28-04, 02:34 PM	Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower. I often use wounds & vitality or lower massive damage threshold, though, so the higher overall ACs help to offset the instant kill factor.
Jedi_Councilman 04-29-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by Jack Daniel Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower. I like the sound of that but I'd restrict access to armor proficiency in my game. I'd probably give Fighters/Warriors only Light armor at 1st level.
Vanamir 04-30-04, 06:17 AM	IMC we have a houserule that you get a competence bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your BAB from class levels which you loose when you are flatfooted or denied your dexterity bonus to AC. Up to now (my group is between 7th and 8th level) this system has worked very well and without any apparent balance problems. Maybe i should add that i tend to dish out treasure sparingly and challenge my party with rather difficult encounters, so i do not know whether this is really a good system for everyone.
Nan Lung 04-30-04, 08:04 AM	Originally posted by Jack Daniel Well if you want to know how I run it, I much prefer the d20 Modern system. I use their defense bonus progressions and I let them stack with armor. I also use the armor DR rules from UA, which means that armor bonuses are a little lower. factor. Query: What are the different defence bonuses in d20 Modern? I might try them instead.
Jack Daniel 04-30-04, 01:53 PM	It's about 2/3 of a base attack bonus. The good progression is 1/2/2/3/4/4/5..., the medium progression is 1/1/2/2/3/3/4..., and the poor progression is 0/1/1/1/2/2/2.... One of the modern classes, the fast hero, has a special progression that's just 2 higher than the medium bonus (3/3/4/4/5/5/6...), which is good to use for unarmored monks.
Dartanel 05-01-04, 07:18 PM	I think the main reason that d20 modern's defense bonuses are lower is because the character's attack bonuses are equally lower. Only one base class has an attack bonus of 1/1, and correspondingly few advanced and prestige classes have them either.