Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phoenix Knight 06-21-06, 01:58 PM	As I mentioned in my sorcery thread, in my work to adapt D&D to my setting, I found that my real problem with the system was its magic system and the way magic was so ingrained into most of the classes that non-magical characers weren't the norm, they were the exception. I realized that I wanted a new magic system with a new outlook on magic. I also saw that if I stripped all the classes with supernatural abilities, that would leave about three classes. So I decided I wanted a brand new class system, something simple, straightforward, and easy to learn. I didn't really want to build 20 different 20 level classes, but I wanted players to be able to create any concept using basic rules. Looking at the existing classes, many niche classes like swashbuckler exist because of the limits of the base classes. A swashbuckler is basically a fighter/rogue, but one can't quite build one using the base rules because fighters get all kinds of weapons/armor a SB shouldn't have while they lack the skills that such a character would want. A rogue is closer, but what if the player wants to be the master warrior like the hero from Princess Bride? So I looked at generic classes but they weren't quite right. I strongly considered Uber Generics, but it wasn't quite what I wanted. I eventually came up with the following. The increased feats and Path system (somewhat inspired by Midnight) should make characters slightly more powerful, to make up for the loss of magical items and abilities. This system is designed to be used in conjunction with my magic system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655243).
Phoenix Knight 06-21-06, 01:58 PM	The D&D system uses a class system. The Kishar setting necessitates that this system be replaced with something a little more open and less restricting. To this end, you can build your own class using 10 Class Points. If you tire of this class, you can build a new one and multiclass into it with no penalty. Each aspect of the class costs a certain number of class points. Hit Dice 0 pts: d4 1 pt: d6 2 pts: d8 3 pts: d10 4 pts: d12 Base Attack Bonus 0pts: +½ level 2pts: +¾ level 4 pts: +1 level Skill Points 0pts: 2 + Int mod 1pt: 4 + Int mod 2pts: 6 + Int mod 3pts: 8 + Int mod 4pts: 10 + Int mod 5pts: 12 + Int mod Saving Throw Points Rather than the traditional saving throw increase system, the following new save system is presented. Each level you receive a certain number of saving throw points which are spent to increase your base save on a one-for-one basis. You decide where to spend each point. You can therefore create balanced saves, or be good at one and weaker at the others. A half point can be spent, but does not actually increase the save until the other half is invested. 0pts: +½ each level 1pt: +1 each level 2pts: +1 ½ each level 4pts: +2 each level Mana You can spend class points to gain increased mana (see The Ways of Magic). You can only use mana if you have the Mystic Blood feat. Any race prohibited from gaining this feat cannot spend points on mana. Only a full mana actually increases your total mana. 2pts: +¼ mana each level 4pts: +½ mana each level 6pts: +¾ mana each level Other Class Features There are no cross-class skills (all skills count as class skills). Each character receives 2 feats at first level, and an additional feat each even level thereafter (rather than every 3 levels). These feats replace the standard class features; many previous class features have been turned into feats. Each character receives 7 Weapon Group and/or Armor/Shield Proficiency feats at 1st level. This feats may include Exotic Weapon Groups (provided the base group has already been selected). The Kishar Campaign setting uses Weapon Groups (an idea presented in Unearthed Arcana) rather than simple, martial, and exotic weapons.
Phoenix Knight 06-21-06, 02:00 PM	In order to allow for the feel of selecting classes in current D&D and to make up for the lesser availability of magic, you may follow heroic paths which grant free abilities as you gain levels. Starting at 1st level and whenever you gain a class level, you can also improve your level in any one Path to which you have access. Paths represent your special training, career, or focus. They grant bonus feats and special abilities at each level; you receive these benefits even if you don’t meet the requirements. You begin with access to one path that fits your background (prestige paths are restricted). You can gain access to others in game through roleplaying. Each path has five levels. With DM permission, players may create new paths for total customization of their character. ARCHER The archer is a specialist in bows. Archers are usually well trained, well paid units in the military. Level 1: Point Blank Shot Level 2: Precise Shot Level 3: Rapid Shot Level 4: Far Shot Level 5: Improved Precise Shot ARISTOCRAT The aristocrat lives the life of luxury. But his is a world of diplomacy, veiled threats, and intrigue. Level 1: Negotiator Level 2: 6 free skill ranks to be divided among Diplomacy, Knowledge, Perform, or Speak Language skills Level 3: Persuasive Level 4: Open Minded Level 5: Leadership ASSASSIN The assassin specializes in stealth kills. They eliminate targets either for money, or because their lord has commanded it. Level 1: Sneak attack +1d6 Level 2: Poison use Level 3: Uncanny Dodge Level 4: Sneak attack +2d6 Level 5: Death attack: as the Assassin ability (DMG 180), except the DC is equal to (10 + character level + Int mod) BARD The bard is jack-of-all-trades, generally from the Celtic Isles. Many are those that began training as druids but turned away from the path, either because they lacked the discipline necessary, or because they showed a talent for music. Bards on the isles still often serve as aids to the druids, officiating music at ceremonies, and collecting lore for druids. There are also true bards among the elves, who invented the bardic arts and taught them to the Celtic people. The bard is a master of entertainment, music, storytelling, and lore, as well as being an adventurer, poet, warrior, and dabbler in all talents. Many also learn limited magic. Many bards are scoundrels and vagrants, surviving by using their charm, wit, and talents to con, seduce, or otherwise manipulate others into giving them food, shelter, or coin. Some bards, however, may be more noble – they may serve as teachers to kings, champions of the people, or record keepers to great empires. Only the most lucky of bards can meet this kind of success, however; most do what they have to do to get by. Level 1: Skill Focus (Perform) Level 2: Lore (Ex): Bards are collectors of lore. You gain a free rank in Knowledge (lore) each level. This does not allow you to exceed your maximum ranks. Level 3: Jack of All Trades Level 4: Open Minded Level 5: Open Minded BERSERKER The berserker is a fierce warrior that relies on raw fury to plow through his enemies. They are most common in Nostir, though some other regions have spawned the style as well. Level 1: Rage (Ex): as PHB2, but at will Level 2: Toughness Level 3: Uncanny Dodge Level 4: Damage Reduction 1/- Level 5: Greater Rage (Ex): The strength bonus for your rage improves to +6 and your DR improves to 3/-. BRAWLER A brawler is a master of unarmed combat. Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Level 2: Improved Grapple Level 3: Clever Wrestling (CWar) or Improved Trip Level 4: Earth’s Embrace (CWar) Level 5: Stunning Fist CAVALIER The cavalier is a specialist in mounted combat. Level 1: Mounted Combat Level 2: Skill Focus (Ride) Level 3: Ride-By Attack Level 4: Spirited Charge Level 5: Full Mounted Attack (Ex): As Cavalier ability CWar COURTESAN The courtesan is an entertainer, companion, and often a high-class prostitute. She uses her talents to obtain wealth and influence. Level 1: Seduction (Ex): This ability allows you to seduce someone who might be attracted to you with a Bluff check opposed by their Will save. If they fail the save, they are effectively charmed by you for 1 hour. This ability can be used at will, but each attempt requires at least 1 minute of conversation. Target’s that successfully save are immune to further attempts. Level 2: 6 bonus skill ranks to be divided among Craft or Knowledge skills Level 3: +4 bonus on Sense Motive Level 4: Slippery Mind Level 5: 8 bonus skill ranks to be divided among Craft or Knowledge skills HUNTER The hunter has a particularly hated foe which he pursues with vigor and special training. When you select this path, you must choose a hated foe; this is normally a creature type such as dragon, aberration, or magical beast. You cannot choose humanoid, though you may a specific type (such as orc); you cannot choose your own race. If you select cosmic being, you must select a specific type, such as demon. Level 1: Favored Enemy (chosen foe): Receive a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks against this foe. Also a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such foes. Level 2: Bonuses improve to +4 Level 3: Bonuses improve to +6 Level 4: Bonuses improve to +8 Level 5: Bonuses improve to +10 KI ADEPT The ki adept is a specialist in harnessing inner magic to perform great physical feats, known as chi feats. They are extremely rare. Most are found among the monks of Kirahr or Guiyu, or the sohei of Terza. A character must have the Mystic Blood feat and DM permission to take this path. Level 1: Chi Focus Level 2: Chi Strike or Chi Tolerance Level 3: Improved Chi Focus or Chi Breath Level 4: Chi Agility or Chi Speed Level 5: Chi Initiative or Diamond Soul MARINE The marine is a sailor/soldier. It is an ideal path for pirates, naval officers, and sailor PCs. Level 1: 4 bonus ranks in Profession (sailor). This does not allow you to exceed your maximum ranks, though they will apply retroactively when you max ranks increase. Level 2: Improved Feint Level 3: Sailor’s Balance (Stormwrack) Level 4: Old Salt (Stormwrack) Level 5: Sailor’s Step: bonus AC on ships as Stormwrack prestige class ability NINJA Ninja are elite special forces from Terza. They rely on stealth and deadly training to defeat their foes. Level 1: 2 bonus Weapon Group feats (including exotic weapon groups) Level 2: Sneak Attack +1d6 Level 3: Ninja training: +2 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble Level 4: Evasion Level 5: Fast climb: As ninja ability (CAdv) RANGER The ranger is a woodsman. He is at home in the wilds, and a master of stealth there. Level 1: Track Level 2: Endurance Level 3: Wild Empathy Level 4: Woodland Stride Level 5: Camouflage or Trackless Step SAMURAI WARRIOR The samurai are the elite ruling class of Terza. Their warriors are often talented knights as well as aristocrats. Level 1: Gain the Bows, Heavy Blades, and Light Blades weapon groups Level 2: Mounted Archery Level 3: Improved Unarmed Strike Level 4: Quick Draw Level 5: Leadership SCHOLAR Scholars strive to master their field of study, always seeking more learning. Level 1: 5 bonus ranks to be divided among Knowledge or Speak Language skills Level 2: Diligent Level 3: Skill Focus (any one Knowledge) Level 4: 8 bonus ranks to be divided among Craft, Knowledge, Profession, or Speak Language skills Level 5: Intelligence +1 SCOUT The scout is a specially trained master of stealth that sneaks ahead and gathers information on the enemy, thereby protecting his allies. Level 1: Stealthy Level 2: 6 bonus skill ranks to be divided amongst Hide, Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, Search, and Survival Level 3: Trackless Step Level 4: Evasion Level 5: Camouflage or Woodland Stride SOLDIER The soldier is a warrior with formal military training. Level 1: Bonus Weapon Group or Armor feat or Shield Proficiency Level 2: Endurance Level 3: Bonus Weapon Group or Armor feat or Shield Proficiency Level 4: Improved Toughness Level 5: Improved Initiative SPY The spy infiltrates an enemy organization in order to obtain information or carry out missions. Level 1: Investigator Level 2: Deceitful Level 3: Alias (Ex): You have a specific alternate identity. When using this identity, you receive a +4 bonus to Disguise checks and Bluff checks to act in character. You receive an additional alias every 5 levels (5th, 10th, and so on). Level 4: Stealthy Level 5: Quick Disguise (Ex): You can now use the disguise skill at one-tenth the normal time. SWASHBUCKLER A swashbuckler is a nimble, skilled warrior that relies on wit, finesse, and flair. They favor light, fast weapons. They are generally found among the upper classes of well-developed societies, or as sailors and pirates. Level 1: Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise Level 2: Canny Defense Level 3: Insightful Strike (Ex): As Swashbuckler ability (CWar) Level 4: Acrobatic Charge Level 5: Riposte (Ex): when you fight using Combat Expertise, accepting at least a -1 penalty to attack, you receive an attack of opportunity on an opponent that misses you. This ability cannot be used more than once per round. THIEF The thief is a specialist in burglary, pick-pocketing, or other larcenous behavior. Most grew up on lean streets and use their skills to get by. Some just like the thrill of their craft. Level 1: Nimble Fingers Level 2: Agile Level 3: Deft Hands Level 4: Stealthy Level 5: Improved Diversion (CAdv) TREASURE HUNTER A treasure hunter is an adventurer that specializes in finding and delving into ancient ruins in search of riches. Level 1: Trapfinding Level 2: Nimble Fingers Level 3: Dungeon skills: +2 bonus to Balance, Climb, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), and Search Level 4: Blind Fight Level 5: Evasion VAGRANT The vagrant is a wanderer and world traveler. Level 1: 4 bonus ranks in Speak Language. This does not allow you to exceed your maximum ranks, though they will apply retroactively when you max ranks increase. Level 2: Endurance Level 3: Skill Focus (Knowledge (geography)) Level 4: Open Minded Level 5: Vagrant’s skills: +2 bonus on Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Profession (cook), and Survival WARRIOR MONK The warrior monk is trained in martial talents and the unity of mind, body, and spirit. They are common in Kirahr and Guiyu, and sometimes found in Terza. A particular kind of warrior monk, called a sohei, can be found in Terza, dedicated to a religious sect. Most sohei specialize in use of the naginata. Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike or Intuition Level 2: Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude Level 3: Still Mind or Body Control Level 4: Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude Level 5: Evasion WEAPON MASTER The weapon master is a specialist with a single weapon. When you select this path, choose a single weapon group. Level 1: Weapon Focus with chosen group Level 2: Weapon Specialization with chosen group Level 3: Greater Weapon Focus with chosen group Level 4: Improved Critical with chosen group Level 5: Greater Weapon Specialization with chosen group
Pz.Az.04Maus 06-21-06, 10:59 PM	Berserker looks bad, since he can't rage any time he likes. Defeats the point.
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-22-06, 07:12 AM	There is a PDF product called "Buy the Numbers" that does what you seem to be proposing. You might want to take a look at it if you can.
Phoenix Knight 06-22-06, 11:38 AM	Berserker looks bad, since he can't rage any time he likes. Defeats the point. I used the variant from PHB2. Now that you mention it, however, I guess I don't really see any reason why he shouldn't be able to rage at will with a limit of once per encounter (a daily limit is kind of odd). There is a PDF product called "Buy the Numbers" that does what you seem to be proposing. You might want to take a look at it if you can. I have not heard of it. If it is a free download and you know where I can find it, then I will definitely look at it. I hope I may have something workable, here, however.
Phoenix Knight 06-26-06, 01:08 PM	After reading the recent traits thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9475732#post9475732), I now think I may want to go with something simpler than paths. While kind of cool, they require lots of new rules. Rather, I'll up feats to every level (to make up for loss of class features), turn all class features into feats (as with generic classes), and grant bonus feats like the traits thread: Bonus Feats At 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter you also receive a bonus feat to add flavor to your character chosen from the following list: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Armor Proficiency (any), Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Exotic Weapon Group (any), Great Fortitude, Investigator, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Shield Proficiency, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Toughness, Track, Weapon Group (any). It seems a simpler way to go.
Millennium 06-26-06, 02:12 PM	Have you considered the Generic Classes variant from Unearthed Arcana? It doesn't quite do what you want out of the box, but it sounds like it would be a good fit. Two of the three classes don't have supernatural abilities 'out of the box', and all three classes are much more customizable than most of the D&D classes: you can customize saves and class skills to suit your needs, and all three classes have bonus feats built in frequently to help you customize further. Many of the "standard" class features are broken out into feats so that you can "rebuild" the standard classes out of the generics; UA leaves this work incomplete but it should not be hard to finish if that's what you want. The big problem is the generic "Spellcaster" class. It's kind of like a cross between the wizard and sorcerer, which doesn't sound like what you want. However, it could probably be reworked to suit your needs.
Phoenix Knight 06-26-06, 02:54 PM	Yeah I looked at both generics and Crave's Uber Generics. Both were pretty tempting. I felt it wasn't quite what I was looking for, but I keep feeling tempted to look back at generics. I did use that as the basis for turning class abilities into feats. Since I created my own magic system not really tied to class, I wanted to avoid their caster class. However, after I decided that the mana increase should partly be allowed as part of the base progression, that became more iffy. I shyed away from generics originally because it was not possible to create certain class archetypes using that system, at least as I recall. For example, suppose you want a character with all strong saves? Normally you could sacrifice BAB and have mediocre saves (and be a monk). I'm not saying I want to exactly duplicate the base classes (otherwise I could just use them), but I'm still undecided on whether I wanted to use Generics. Hence posting this to see if people thought it balanced.
alchemyprime 06-28-06, 05:12 PM	Well, its obvious you put time into it. I respect that. On the other hand... A couple of deals you can do. One, go download a CCE or CCS pdf from Community 3e (http://www.community3e.com) and let everyone plan out what they want for themselves for 20 levels. Or you can get Big Eyes Small Mouth d20 or download the Anime d20 srd from the website for guardians of the order, and let everyone play as an Adventurer. You system might work thoguh. I'm going to look over it again, and go by it with some of my players. Also, maybe check out the Nothing class in my sig, to go along with the generics. One of our fighters rebuilt himself as a warrior, and he enjoys it more. Oh, and use weapon groups instead of normal weapon proficiencies. My group enjoys them more.
Phoenix Knight 06-28-06, 05:57 PM	Thanks for the input alchemy prime. I checked out the things you mentioned. The Anime d20 thing was far too complex for what I had in mind. The CCS was very interesting, however, I don't know that it would work any better than the combination of generic class-style feats and point buy class progression I already set up. As mentioned in the first post, my setting already uses Weapon Groups. I don't think this system would work quite right without them.
Phoenix Knight 07-03-06, 03:43 PM	I have been thinking about scrapping this and considering the possibility of writing new classes. I'd like to have several general classes, but I'm not sure the generic classes quite cut it. I'd like to be able to allow a player to decide his own archetype for his character, and be able to choose a class that provides the specifics. As the base D&D system stands, your class can largely determine both your archetype and profession. Actually, the Fighter seems the closest of the classes to the more general, player specified feel I want. Every time I try to write new classes for this, I'm left with this issue that keeps bugging me, which I think I can illustrate with the ranger/scout comparison. They're both fairly cool classes in their own right. But conceptually their similar enough that only reason we need two of them rather than one you can customize is because they have different Base Attack Bonuses. All other abilities could more-or-less be chosen from a special abilities list. So if I make a nature class, what's to be its BAB? If its less than Fighter, ranger fans will be disappointed. If its fighter, then it has to have something else less to compensate. I could have two classes, but that defeats part of the point: to create general, unspecialized classes so players can build the character they want. The whole build a swashbuckler as a fighter or rogue not a new class issue is kind of similar. A pure fighter gets armor and stuff a SB wouldn't while lacking the skills, and a rogue lacks the BAB. Hmmm, I'm not sure if I had a specific question, but I welcome further advice. I started leaning back towards having classes again because I thought it might be easier for many players to adapt to that, since its close to what they are used to. Unfortunately, the only two I can think of are Warrior and Expert (basically as the UA generics). Two classes almost seems to defeat the purpose of having classes, and then I should just use the system above. Also, two isn't nearly enough to begin to cover all normal combinations of BAB, skills, saves, and hit dice.
Phoenix Knight 07-06-06, 01:18 PM	There is a PDF product called "Buy the Numbers" that does what you seem to be proposing. You might want to take a look at it if you can. Well, finally found it. It is awesome. Thanks so much Silvercat. I may very well go with this. Otherwise, I've considered some new class ideas which I may put in another thread.