D&D without Int, Wis, and Cha?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

D&D without Int, Wis, and Cha?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gideon_Gideonson
11-01-06, 10:28 PM I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores. Un-charismatic fighter's take up the party's talks, the Barbarian occasionally comes up with an amazingly complex plan, etc.

Would it ruin the game to replace these with a set of skills, so player's could play mental statistics however they wanted? Obviously, spellcasting and saving throws would have to be reworked, but does anyone agree with me that this could work?
Thomar_of_Uointer
11-02-06, 09:31 PM Yes, but it would also require you to toss out Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and related skills, as presumably those would be replaced by hardcore roleplaying.

Or were you going to add Magic and Appearance as ability scores?
Trollios
11-02-06, 10:11 PM You could switch them with three abilities, Memory, Magic, and Perception. Magic would of course, influence your casting. Perception would be your Search, SPot, Sense Motive. and Memory would be your professions and knowledge skills.

Then the only issue would be bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy. which I've found either fall into either the DM just won't let this happen when it will upset the game or it is mostly inconsequential. so why not just RP it out, and only roll for the character trying to interpret via sense motive, using the perception skill and the DC can be based on how much it varies from the truth and how elaborate it is. So something like "Flying monkeys shoot out my hindquarters every half hour" would be a DC 5, to tell if they are lying, while "your lordship, I wasn't even in the library at the time, I was in the dining room telling a story of the time I was in the ruins of white plume mountain, while enjoying a nice chablis." would have a DC of 16, because it is well detailed, not far from the truth, and incorporates confirmable pieces. Until they check with one of the other guests of course....
runestar
11-02-06, 10:43 PM Why not just play diablo2?:P
Tyler Do'Urden
11-03-06, 12:48 AM I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores.Many of your players maybe. My group loves accurately roleplaying people that just don't get it.
Reversefigure4
11-03-06, 06:45 PM Well, there is the simpliest option: Int, Wis, and Cha now only have mechanical effects.

INT no longer determines how intelligent you are: It merely determines the number of skill points you have.
WIS no longer means you are wise or perceptive, it merely means +1 to Will save and to Spot and Listen checks.
CHA does not make you charismatic, it just happens to be the number you need to cast Sorc spells.

Players are free to RP their personality however they like.
Consequently, characters with 4 DEX can freely describe themselves as nimble and quick looking.
starfire311
11-03-06, 07:48 PM Players are free to RP their personality however they like.
Consequently, characters with 4 DEX can freely describe themselves as nimble and quick looking.

Str 4 can describe him self as hercules
CroBob
11-05-06, 02:58 AM Bad idea.
Mitchell
11-05-06, 04:57 AM If I were to do anything, and my players aren't acting within my idea of their mental stats, I would just dice everything.
Riddle? Don't bother making one up, just tell them the DC. Maybe they get a bonus from another skill, be it knowledge, craft, or profession, but that would be it.
It takes out some of the RP if they just roll for everything, but you do what you have to to make the abilities count for what they are supposed to count for.
Another option, though not the best, is to just assign int, wis, and cha based upon your idea of what the players int, wis, and cha are. This is subjective, you have to grade them on every aspect of a stats representation to determine the average, you may eliminate or cripple some classes, you may have to alter the character generation method (point buy would have to change, for example), and you may even really tick somebody off. Like I said, not ideal, but the players would be acting out their mental stats as you see them, at least. One possibility here would be to let everyone else grade everyone but themselves and take the average of that. Of course, if the players all grade each other as 18s across the board...
theotherdraxen
11-06-06, 11:10 AM Do what's fun for the players (and hopefully, yourself). If they don't want to role-play low-mental scores, don't make them: it won't make your game any more fun or appealing. Reversefigure4 has a good suggestion about making everything just a mechanical effect.
crowclub
11-06-06, 12:46 PM Why not just play diablo2?:P

Sound advice!!
Drachasor
11-06-06, 12:58 PM I think dropping the scores or insisting that "dumb" characters can't make really good decisions is a bad idea.

Allow the player to come up with imaginitive ideas. Allow the player to use his creativity, intelligence, and mettle to meet challenges.

Then encourage the player to look at things from his character's perspective. Encourage him to think of ways on how his character could come up with such ideas. Maybe the character is pretty dumb, but perhaps he has some raw animal cunning. Or perhaps he's dumb, but also very creative with what he does know (and most PCs end up knowing battle very well). Afterall, no stat governs intelligence, just like no stat inherently governs all levels of kindness, altruism, likelihood of hugging, or how much a character enjoys to dance. For that matter, no stat governs wether a character is ugly or not*.

That said, some deficiencies from stats can be overcome with some effort. Low charisma? Well, practice (add ranks) intimidation, diplomacy, or bluff and you'll do better in public situations. Low intelligence? You can still learn a lot if you spend ranks in knowledge skills.

But intelligence doesn't govern creativity or good planning. Wisdom doesn't either. Like skills, planning and creativity benefit from practice and talent. I think we can all look at the real world and see smart people (knowledgeable people that naturally reason well) that couldn't plan or weren't very creative. However, unlike stats or skills, planning and creativity are not governed by in-game mechanics. You shouldn't force them to be. You should instead encourage your players to roleplay and find good ways to explain why and how their character does what he does. Cut the player some slack. Encourage good roleplaying, but don't punish bad roleplaying. Some people are better at roleplaying than others, and you shouldn't judge each player by the same standard. A huge improvement for one player might be something another player has done since day 1, and that's no ones fault (but the improvement should be rewarded).

(On intelligence and language. I've certainly encountered people who use big words or have large vocabularies that aren't necessarily extremely smart).

-Drachasor

*Charisma is force of personality. A pretty person with low charisma can be ignored just as easily as an ugly person. Well, perhaps the low charisma pretty person might be treated as a nice decoration for the room (by jerks anyhow). Anyhoo, I notice that charisma=beauty is generally used too much.
mkill
11-09-06, 09:11 AM First of all, I don't like it if DM's or fellow players care to much about whether somebody roleplays "correctly". When somebody plays his character, he acts according to his own image of the character, and you should just let him. As a fellow player, you have your own character to worry about, as a DM, well, you have control over the rules and the game world, that's more than enough to keep you busy. If it still bothers you, try the following.

As a fellow player, lead by example. Show them how to play low Wis, low Int, low Cha.

As a DM, just let them play, but still require a roll everytime the outcome is important for the game. Such as, if the players stand in front of the king to explain how his daughter lost her virginity after being rescued from the dragon, and the Cha 8 Diplomacy 1 rank fighter steps up to talk, let him. But still require the player to roll for Diplomacy or Bluff to decide how convincing he is. That way, you don't disadvantage players who actually spent some points in social skills.
jeffepp
11-11-06, 10:41 AM If you want the players to RP there stats, then you should give them an incentive. Give out XP awards for role play, with in reason.

Also, if a low Cha char tries to influence the party, have the player roll his bluff (or diplomacy ), just as if he were trying to influence an NPC.

Also, have npcs ignore low Cha pcs in favor of the high Cha ones.
mkill
11-11-06, 12:24 PM If you want the players to RP there stats, then you should give them an incentive. Give out XP awards for role play, with in reason.

Good idea, it balances the XP = body count idea that D&D is too focused on.

Also, if a low Cha char tries to influence the party, have the player roll his bluff (or diplomacy ), just as if he were trying to influence an NPC.

Intra-party dynamics are determined by more factors than just cha bonus and diplomacy skill. But it is best not to interfere as a DM as long as the party is running smoothly. If you know that one of your players ends up as the party leader no matter what char he plays, require him to have a certain Cha score or give his char some other explanation why he is the leader, such as military rank.

As a general rule, PCs should resolve inter-party quarrels through (friendly) roleplaying, without resorting to attacks, or casting spells on each other. And, they should not use their social skills on each other (which is not so different from using a charm spell). As soon as one player tries to dominate the other with character abilities, the fun on the gaming table is gone.

Sometimes, things can get too intense and then an intra-party fight is unavoidable, but this is usually the end of the party. And if you are unlucky, this might be the end of the gaming group.
bholdr_mage
11-11-06, 11:27 PM I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores.

Player: "I'm going to have a sit down talk with the chancelor about his form of law-making."
DM: "Ok, Quarth the half-orc with INT 6; roll a diplomacy check. You fail. You carefully look at the subject and talk to him about Da rul3s" He looks at you in disbelief that a creature with your low standards of intellect would even approach him on...anything.

Player: "Can I recall who that senator was that made the suggestion of attack?"
DM: "Roll a wisdom check, Quarth the half-orc with WIS 6. (fails.) Yes. You remember him quite well...his name was Drizz't, and he wielded two scimitars and had a sleek panther named Gwynhavar."
Player: "I don't remember Drizz't being in the room!"
DM: "Yes you do...and he spoke up." Changes subject quickly.

Player: "I'd like to impress the ladies with my dashing good looks. Maybe one of the wenches in the tavern can tell me if the Duke's daughter was here last night."
DM: "Ok, Quarth the half-orc with CHA 8 (He's looks smarter than he is.). Roll a diplomacy check to see if you can get anyone's attention."
Player: "Nat 20!"
DM: "A wench comes toward you with a smile on her face."
Player: "Yeah?"
DM: "As she gets closer and looks you over from toe to head, her smile turns into a frown."

"You need something to drink...or maybe a bath? Is that you I smell?"

Player: "Uh...no. I just need to know if the duke's daughter was here last night."

DM: "Yep, she sure was. But I'd go upstairs and use some of the soap before I made a pass at her if I were you..." Make sure to hold nose and speak to get the sound and visual effect.

Just because a player doesn't hold standard to his mental and social repritoire doesn't mean you can't make them be accountable for it. If they use these stats as dump stats, make em pay by doing things like the above examples.

Notice this doesn't hurt the outcome in the third example. Quarth rolled high enough on the diplomacy check to get the information he wanted; but he probably could have had a much better time if he played his abilities to the hilt. It probably would have even been more pleasant for him, and he might have found more information out about maybe the individual(s) she was with.

Also, the diplomacy skill doesn't make someone your best bud and let them spill their deepest secrets. She's helpful, but what exactly is helpful? She answers his questions and leaves it be. But if he approaches his charisma the way it shows on paper, and role-play that in game (as in, maybe he's shy; maybe he has a studdering problem, maybe he doesn't look people in the eye when he speaks, etc....) he'd get a HECK of a lot more information.

YOU as DM need to take control of this. If you nerf it, they won't change. They'll just treat the game as "Hey we're all buff combatants with 18's in mental and social abilities" and they might just as well play diablo 2 as someone here already mentioned.
bholdr_mage
11-11-06, 11:28 PM forgot to subscribe.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gideon_Gideonson 11-01-06, 10:28 PM	I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores. Un-charismatic fighter's take up the party's talks, the Barbarian occasionally comes up with an amazingly complex plan, etc. Would it ruin the game to replace these with a set of skills, so player's could play mental statistics however they wanted? Obviously, spellcasting and saving throws would have to be reworked, but does anyone agree with me that this could work?
Thomar_of_Uointer 11-02-06, 09:31 PM	Yes, but it would also require you to toss out Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and related skills, as presumably those would be replaced by hardcore roleplaying. Or were you going to add Magic and Appearance as ability scores?
Trollios 11-02-06, 10:11 PM	You could switch them with three abilities, Memory, Magic, and Perception. Magic would of course, influence your casting. Perception would be your Search, SPot, Sense Motive. and Memory would be your professions and knowledge skills. Then the only issue would be bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy. which I've found either fall into either the DM just won't let this happen when it will upset the game or it is mostly inconsequential. so why not just RP it out, and only roll for the character trying to interpret via sense motive, using the perception skill and the DC can be based on how much it varies from the truth and how elaborate it is. So something like "Flying monkeys shoot out my hindquarters every half hour" would be a DC 5, to tell if they are lying, while "your lordship, I wasn't even in the library at the time, I was in the dining room telling a story of the time I was in the ruins of white plume mountain, while enjoying a nice chablis." would have a DC of 16, because it is well detailed, not far from the truth, and incorporates confirmable pieces. Until they check with one of the other guests of course....
runestar 11-02-06, 10:43 PM	Why not just play diablo2?:P
Tyler Do'Urden 11-03-06, 12:48 AM	I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores.Many of your players maybe. My group loves accurately roleplaying people that just don't get it.
Reversefigure4 11-03-06, 06:45 PM	Well, there is the simpliest option: Int, Wis, and Cha now only have mechanical effects. INT no longer determines how intelligent you are: It merely determines the number of skill points you have. WIS no longer means you are wise or perceptive, it merely means +1 to Will save and to Spot and Listen checks. CHA does not make you charismatic, it just happens to be the number you need to cast Sorc spells. Players are free to RP their personality however they like. Consequently, characters with 4 DEX can freely describe themselves as nimble and quick looking.
starfire311 11-03-06, 07:48 PM	Players are free to RP their personality however they like. Consequently, characters with 4 DEX can freely describe themselves as nimble and quick looking. Str 4 can describe him self as hercules
CroBob 11-05-06, 02:58 AM	Bad idea.
Mitchell 11-05-06, 04:57 AM	If I were to do anything, and my players aren't acting within my idea of their mental stats, I would just dice everything. Riddle? Don't bother making one up, just tell them the DC. Maybe they get a bonus from another skill, be it knowledge, craft, or profession, but that would be it. It takes out some of the RP if they just roll for everything, but you do what you have to to make the abilities count for what they are supposed to count for. Another option, though not the best, is to just assign int, wis, and cha based upon your idea of what the players int, wis, and cha are. This is subjective, you have to grade them on every aspect of a stats representation to determine the average, you may eliminate or cripple some classes, you may have to alter the character generation method (point buy would have to change, for example), and you may even really tick somebody off. Like I said, not ideal, but the players would be acting out their mental stats as you see them, at least. One possibility here would be to let everyone else grade everyone but themselves and take the average of that. Of course, if the players all grade each other as 18s across the board...
theotherdraxen 11-06-06, 11:10 AM	Do what's fun for the players (and hopefully, yourself). If they don't want to role-play low-mental scores, don't make them: it won't make your game any more fun or appealing. Reversefigure4 has a good suggestion about making everything just a mechanical effect.
crowclub 11-06-06, 12:46 PM	Why not just play diablo2?:P Sound advice!!
Drachasor 11-06-06, 12:58 PM	I think dropping the scores or insisting that "dumb" characters can't make really good decisions is a bad idea. Allow the player to come up with imaginitive ideas. Allow the player to use his creativity, intelligence, and mettle to meet challenges. Then encourage the player to look at things from his character's perspective. Encourage him to think of ways on how his character could come up with such ideas. Maybe the character is pretty dumb, but perhaps he has some raw animal cunning. Or perhaps he's dumb, but also very creative with what he does know (and most PCs end up knowing battle very well). Afterall, no stat governs intelligence, just like no stat inherently governs all levels of kindness, altruism, likelihood of hugging, or how much a character enjoys to dance. For that matter, no stat governs wether a character is ugly or not. That said, some deficiencies from stats can be overcome with some effort. Low charisma? Well, practice (add ranks) intimidation, diplomacy, or bluff and you'll do better in public situations. Low intelligence? You can still learn a lot if you spend ranks in knowledge skills. But intelligence doesn't govern creativity or good planning. Wisdom doesn't either. Like skills, planning and creativity benefit from practice and talent. I think we can all look at the real world and see smart people (knowledgeable people that naturally reason well) that couldn't plan or weren't very creative. However, unlike stats or skills, planning and creativity are not governed by in-game mechanics. You shouldn't force them to be. You should instead encourage your players to roleplay and find good ways to explain why and how their character does what he does. Cut the player some slack. Encourage good roleplaying, but don't punish bad roleplaying. Some people are better at roleplaying than others, and you shouldn't judge each player by the same standard. A huge improvement for one player might be something another player has done since day 1, and that's no ones fault (but the improvement should be rewarded). (On intelligence and language. I've certainly encountered people who use big words or have large vocabularies that aren't necessarily extremely smart). -Drachasor Charisma is force of personality. A pretty person with low charisma can be ignored just as easily as an ugly person. Well, perhaps the low charisma pretty person might be treated as a nice decoration for the room (by jerks anyhow). Anyhoo, I notice that charisma=beauty is generally used too much.
mkill 11-09-06, 09:11 AM	First of all, I don't like it if DM's or fellow players care to much about whether somebody roleplays "correctly". When somebody plays his character, he acts according to his own image of the character, and you should just let him. As a fellow player, you have your own character to worry about, as a DM, well, you have control over the rules and the game world, that's more than enough to keep you busy. If it still bothers you, try the following. As a fellow player, lead by example. Show them how to play low Wis, low Int, low Cha. As a DM, just let them play, but still require a roll everytime the outcome is important for the game. Such as, if the players stand in front of the king to explain how his daughter lost her virginity after being rescued from the dragon, and the Cha 8 Diplomacy 1 rank fighter steps up to talk, let him. But still require the player to roll for Diplomacy or Bluff to decide how convincing he is. That way, you don't disadvantage players who actually spent some points in social skills.
jeffepp 11-11-06, 10:41 AM	If you want the players to RP there stats, then you should give them an incentive. Give out XP awards for role play, with in reason. Also, if a low Cha char tries to influence the party, have the player roll his bluff (or diplomacy ), just as if he were trying to influence an NPC. Also, have npcs ignore low Cha pcs in favor of the high Cha ones.
mkill 11-11-06, 12:24 PM	If you want the players to RP there stats, then you should give them an incentive. Give out XP awards for role play, with in reason. Good idea, it balances the XP = body count idea that D&D is too focused on. Also, if a low Cha char tries to influence the party, have the player roll his bluff (or diplomacy ), just as if he were trying to influence an NPC. Intra-party dynamics are determined by more factors than just cha bonus and diplomacy skill. But it is best not to interfere as a DM as long as the party is running smoothly. If you know that one of your players ends up as the party leader no matter what char he plays, require him to have a certain Cha score or give his char some other explanation why he is the leader, such as military rank. As a general rule, PCs should resolve inter-party quarrels through (friendly) roleplaying, without resorting to attacks, or casting spells on each other. And, they should not use their social skills on each other (which is not so different from using a charm spell). As soon as one player tries to dominate the other with character abilities, the fun on the gaming table is gone. Sometimes, things can get too intense and then an intra-party fight is unavoidable, but this is usually the end of the party. And if you are unlucky, this might be the end of the gaming group.
bholdr_mage 11-11-06, 11:27 PM	I've noticed recently that many player's don't accurately play low mental ability scores. Player: "I'm going to have a sit down talk with the chancelor about his form of law-making." DM: "Ok, Quarth the half-orc with INT 6; roll a diplomacy check. You fail. You carefully look at the subject and talk to him about Da rul3s" He looks at you in disbelief that a creature with your low standards of intellect would even approach him on...anything. Player: "Can I recall who that senator was that made the suggestion of attack?" DM: "Roll a wisdom check, Quarth the half-orc with WIS 6. (fails.) Yes. You remember him quite well...his name was Drizz't, and he wielded two scimitars and had a sleek panther named Gwynhavar." Player: "I don't remember Drizz't being in the room!" DM: "Yes you do...and he spoke up." Changes subject quickly. Player: "I'd like to impress the ladies with my dashing good looks. Maybe one of the wenches in the tavern can tell me if the Duke's daughter was here last night." DM: "Ok, Quarth the half-orc with CHA 8 (He's looks smarter than he is.). Roll a diplomacy check to see if you can get anyone's attention." Player: "Nat 20!" DM: "A wench comes toward you with a smile on her face." Player: "Yeah?" DM: "As she gets closer and looks you over from toe to head, her smile turns into a frown." "You need something to drink...or maybe a bath? Is that you I smell?" Player: "Uh...no. I just need to know if the duke's daughter was here last night." DM: "Yep, she sure was. But I'd go upstairs and use some of the soap before I made a pass at her if I were you..." Make sure to hold nose and speak to get the sound and visual effect. Just because a player doesn't hold standard to his mental and social repritoire doesn't mean you can't make them be accountable for it. If they use these stats as dump stats, make em pay by doing things like the above examples. Notice this doesn't hurt the outcome in the third example. Quarth rolled high enough on the diplomacy check to get the information he wanted; but he probably could have had a much better time if he played his abilities to the hilt. It probably would have even been more pleasant for him, and he might have found more information out about maybe the individual(s) she was with. Also, the diplomacy skill doesn't make someone your best bud and let them spill their deepest secrets. She's helpful, but what exactly is helpful? She answers his questions and leaves it be. But if he approaches his charisma the way it shows on paper, and role-play that in game (as in, maybe he's shy; maybe he has a studdering problem, maybe he doesn't look people in the eye when he speaks, etc....) he'd get a HECK of a lot more information. YOU as DM need to take control of this. If you nerf it, they won't change. They'll just treat the game as "Hey we're all buff combatants with 18's in mental and social abilities" and they might just as well play diablo 2 as someone here already mentioned.
bholdr_mage 11-11-06, 11:28 PM	forgot to subscribe.