daily spell list, wizard-sorcerer-battle sorcerer.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

daily spell list, wizard-sorcerer-battle sorcerer.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Matrix Sorcica
03-02-04, 10:51 AM Hi all

I've been using Andy Collins houserule on p. 153 of UA for a year and a half (and for many more in older editions).
In short, wizards (and clerics, druids etc, but that's not important right now) have a daily spell list, equal to their daily spell slots, from which they can cast spontaneously.

Since this basically makes the sorcerer obsolete, none of my players have been wanting to play one. Until now, that's been just fine with me.

But now I want to make sorcerers attractive again. andy collins suggests that the sorcerer get one more spell slot of each lvl, except the highest spell lvl available. However, my players have told me that this just isn't enough. The lack of flexibility makes them choose the wizard any time.

So I came up with the idea that sorcerers would have spells known equal to their spell slots per day (including bonus spells). Eachday, they can prepare a number of spells to cast from these known spells equal to the 'spells known' of the core sorcerer.
So a 8th lvl sorcerer with 18 cha would know 6 0-lvl spells, 7 1st and 2nd lvl spells, 6 3rd lvl and 4 4th lvl spells. Of these, he can choose 6 0 lvl, 5 1st lvl, 3 2nd lvl, 2 3rd lvl and 1 4th lvl spell to be on his 'daily spell list'.

I was still contemplating (sp?) letting a high cha score affect this selection allotment as well. This would make the above 6 0 lvl, 6 1st lvl, 4 2nd lvl, 3 3rd lvl and 2 4th lvl spells to be on his 'daily spell list'.

I think this would be nicely balanced, since the wizard still has more flexibility, bonus feats and int as the major stat.

BUT! Along comes UA with the Battle Sorcerer which I really want to use. But I fear that the BS would outshine the sorcerer under these house rules.

If anyone has any ideas, comments or advice, I would be very grateful.

-Matrix
Klytus
03-02-04, 12:41 PM I have the same problem: I love the idea for making Wizards more flexible, but there is nothing to make up for making the Sorcerer obsolete.

The Sorc is already awesome with spell points, what they need are Spells Known. Either give them extra Spells Known, give bonuses to their Spells Known based on their CHA bonus, or both.
Krelios
03-02-04, 01:07 PM Their spells known are still more than the daily spell list of the wizard provides. I still don't think the sorcerer is any less powerful from the wizard--on the contrary, s/he can cast more spells per day. The flexibility of a wizard is merely a personal preference and not a weakness of the sorcerer. In fact, I can't get my players to play anything BUT sorcerers since 3.0 came out (and the casters stuck with sorcerers in 3.5 too).
Lord Schpungus
03-02-04, 01:54 PM But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete.
Lord Schpungus
03-02-04, 02:00 PM But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete.
Krelios
03-02-04, 02:23 PM But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete. No it doesnt, not even if you say it twice. :P Seriously though, a sorcerer STILL gets MORE spells per day than a wizard and can have access to all the spells s/he knows--which is MORE than a wizard can prepare each day. The sorcerer is STILL MORE flexible than a wizard since no preparations need to be made. Besides, the first time a wizard gets his spellbook(s) stolen, that player will seriously consider a sorcerer next campaign. Good luck locking up a sorcerer in a traditional prison...

DM: "They strip you of all equipment and lock you in a cell."
Wizard: "They take everything?"
DM: "Yep, even your spellbook."
Wizard: "Crap."
Sorcerer: *Yawn* "I cast knock and leave."
Matrix Sorcica
03-02-04, 04:04 PM Originally posted by Krelios
Their spells known are still more than the daily spell list of the wizard provides. I still don't think the sorcerer is any less powerful from the wizard--on the contrary, s/he can cast more spells per day. The flexibility of a wizard is merely a personal preference and not a weakness of the sorcerer. In fact, I can't get my players to play anything BUT sorcerers since 3.0 came out (and the casters stuck with sorcerers in 3.5 too).

Is that so?
By using the Andy Collins rule (that I've used for a long time, as I said), a wizard would be able to prepare at least 5 different spells of each lvl from his spellbook, that might contain dozens of different spells. He can then use any of those 5 spells in any combination up to his spell slots for that lvl.
I fail to see how that makes a core sorcerer more versatile, as 5 different spells are all he gets, and that's only low lvl spells. He can't say "today I want to choose from these 5 spells, tomorrow from these other 5 spells."

So?

:)
Ulden Throatbane
03-02-04, 06:06 PM At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell).

And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility.
Klytus
03-02-04, 06:39 PM Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane
At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell).

And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility.
Except blow a Feat on Scribe Scroll. And even then, they just get to scribe the same spells over and over and over again.
Matrix Sorcica
03-03-04, 04:02 AM So guys,

getting back to my original question at the start of the thread ;)

Here’s some ideas I’ve got, comments are very welcome:

The premise is that wizards and other spellcasters that prepare spells get a ‘daily spell list’ as the Andy Collins houserule on p. 153 of UA.

To make sorcerers remain an attractive class (and not be totally outshined by both the wizard and the battle sorcerer), a number of options could be:

As Andy Collins suggests, give the sorcerer one more spell slot of each level except the highest level he can cast. However, my players inform me that this doesn’t make up for the sorcerers lack of spell selection compared to the now very flexible wizard.

So. Like I wrote in the first post, I would give the sorcerer known spells equal to his spell slots a day (including bonus spells). From these, he can each day prepare a ‘daily spell list’ identical to the core sorcerers ‘spells known’ in numbers. I’m still thinking about making this affected by stat bonus as well.

But I think that the Battle Sorcerer would outshine the sorcerer under these conditions. In any way, it still leaves the sorcerer in the position where players leave it for a PrC as soon as possible.

So I’ve been thinking about a way to make it attractive to remain a sorcerer. One way could be to give the sorcerer a bonus metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level like the wizard. I’m using the spontaneous metamagic from UA. I always thought the core metamagic was too steep. First you have to burn a feat, and then you have to pay a price to use it.

Another option is to allow the sorcerer to apply metamagic to all his spells without any feats (or give him feats at the above mentionend levels), in the old fashion (i.e. it takes higher spell slots) and only for spells he casts as a sorcerer (most likely casting time will be a full round, not sure about that one). This makes it attractive to remain a sorcerer and not go PrC.

Maybe a combination of these options is the way to go. I’m really hoping for some feedback.

:)
Kem
03-03-04, 05:16 AM Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane
At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell).

And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility.

Actually thats the problem in both the 2e and the 3e version of spells points.

In 2e they gave out more points then they should have, in 3e they give out way fewer points then they should have.

In the spell point varient you are unable to cast the same number os spells of each level as your non-spell point using cohort. Only advantage you have is more points to spend on higher level spells which is sizable, which i only see as a proiblem due to the scaling method used.

To match the spellcasting power of normal characters they'd have 324 for wizards by level 20 and 486 for sorcerers by level 20.
Ellone
03-03-04, 10:22 AM to recover balance you should maybe let the sorceror change his spell list more easily.

Let the spell know table as it is but allow a sorceror to change one spell known per day using a spellbook or scroll.

You would maybe need to add flavor in the way spell are changed to keep in touch with the sorceror flavor ( no studying )
Matrix Sorcica
03-03-04, 10:29 AM Originally posted by Ellone
to recover balance you should maybe let the sorceror change his spell list more easily.

Let the spell know table as it is but allow a sorceror to change one spell known per day using a spellbook or scroll.

You think this would be enough compared to a daily spell list wizard? I think you got the right point, but maybe it's not enough.. I don't know. But it actually resembles my own idea, it's just not so extreme.

:cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Matrix Sorcica 03-02-04, 10:51 AM	Hi all I've been using Andy Collins houserule on p. 153 of UA for a year and a half (and for many more in older editions). In short, wizards (and clerics, druids etc, but that's not important right now) have a daily spell list, equal to their daily spell slots, from which they can cast spontaneously. Since this basically makes the sorcerer obsolete, none of my players have been wanting to play one. Until now, that's been just fine with me. But now I want to make sorcerers attractive again. andy collins suggests that the sorcerer get one more spell slot of each lvl, except the highest spell lvl available. However, my players have told me that this just isn't enough. The lack of flexibility makes them choose the wizard any time. So I came up with the idea that sorcerers would have spells known equal to their spell slots per day (including bonus spells). Eachday, they can prepare a number of spells to cast from these known spells equal to the 'spells known' of the core sorcerer. So a 8th lvl sorcerer with 18 cha would know 6 0-lvl spells, 7 1st and 2nd lvl spells, 6 3rd lvl and 4 4th lvl spells. Of these, he can choose 6 0 lvl, 5 1st lvl, 3 2nd lvl, 2 3rd lvl and 1 4th lvl spell to be on his 'daily spell list'. I was still contemplating (sp?) letting a high cha score affect this selection allotment as well. This would make the above 6 0 lvl, 6 1st lvl, 4 2nd lvl, 3 3rd lvl and 2 4th lvl spells to be on his 'daily spell list'. I think this would be nicely balanced, since the wizard still has more flexibility, bonus feats and int as the major stat. BUT! Along comes UA with the Battle Sorcerer which I really want to use. But I fear that the BS would outshine the sorcerer under these house rules. If anyone has any ideas, comments or advice, I would be very grateful. -Matrix
Klytus 03-02-04, 12:41 PM	I have the same problem: I love the idea for making Wizards more flexible, but there is nothing to make up for making the Sorcerer obsolete. The Sorc is already awesome with spell points, what they need are Spells Known. Either give them extra Spells Known, give bonuses to their Spells Known based on their CHA bonus, or both.
Krelios 03-02-04, 01:07 PM	Their spells known are still more than the daily spell list of the wizard provides. I still don't think the sorcerer is any less powerful from the wizard--on the contrary, s/he can cast more spells per day. The flexibility of a wizard is merely a personal preference and not a weakness of the sorcerer. In fact, I can't get my players to play anything BUT sorcerers since 3.0 came out (and the casters stuck with sorcerers in 3.5 too).
Lord Schpungus 03-02-04, 01:54 PM	But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete.
Lord Schpungus 03-02-04, 02:00 PM	But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete.
Krelios 03-02-04, 02:23 PM	But giving wizards spontaneous casting takes the coolness of the sorceror and the versatility of the wizard and puts them together. Thus the sorceror is obsolete. No it doesnt, not even if you say it twice. :P Seriously though, a sorcerer STILL gets MORE spells per day than a wizard and can have access to all the spells s/he knows--which is MORE than a wizard can prepare each day. The sorcerer is STILL MORE flexible than a wizard since no preparations need to be made. Besides, the first time a wizard gets his spellbook(s) stolen, that player will seriously consider a sorcerer next campaign. Good luck locking up a sorcerer in a traditional prison... DM: "They strip you of all equipment and lock you in a cell." Wizard: "They take everything?" DM: "Yep, even your spellbook." Wizard: "Crap." Sorcerer: Yawn "I cast knock and leave."
Matrix Sorcica 03-02-04, 04:04 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Their spells known are still more than the daily spell list of the wizard provides. I still don't think the sorcerer is any less powerful from the wizard--on the contrary, s/he can cast more spells per day. The flexibility of a wizard is merely a personal preference and not a weakness of the sorcerer. In fact, I can't get my players to play anything BUT sorcerers since 3.0 came out (and the casters stuck with sorcerers in 3.5 too). Is that so? By using the Andy Collins rule (that I've used for a long time, as I said), a wizard would be able to prepare at least 5 different spells of each lvl from his spellbook, that might contain dozens of different spells. He can then use any of those 5 spells in any combination up to his spell slots for that lvl. I fail to see how that makes a core sorcerer more versatile, as 5 different spells are all he gets, and that's only low lvl spells. He can't say "today I want to choose from these 5 spells, tomorrow from these other 5 spells." So? :)
Ulden Throatbane 03-02-04, 06:06 PM	At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell). And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility.
Klytus 03-02-04, 06:39 PM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell). And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility. Except blow a Feat on Scribe Scroll. And even then, they just get to scribe the same spells over and over and over again.
Matrix Sorcica 03-03-04, 04:02 AM	So guys, getting back to my original question at the start of the thread ;) Here’s some ideas I’ve got, comments are very welcome: The premise is that wizards and other spellcasters that prepare spells get a ‘daily spell list’ as the Andy Collins houserule on p. 153 of UA. To make sorcerers remain an attractive class (and not be totally outshined by both the wizard and the battle sorcerer), a number of options could be: As Andy Collins suggests, give the sorcerer one more spell slot of each level except the highest level he can cast. However, my players inform me that this doesn’t make up for the sorcerers lack of spell selection compared to the now very flexible wizard. So. Like I wrote in the first post, I would give the sorcerer known spells equal to his spell slots a day (including bonus spells). From these, he can each day prepare a ‘daily spell list’ identical to the core sorcerers ‘spells known’ in numbers. I’m still thinking about making this affected by stat bonus as well. But I think that the Battle Sorcerer would outshine the sorcerer under these conditions. In any way, it still leaves the sorcerer in the position where players leave it for a PrC as soon as possible. So I’ve been thinking about a way to make it attractive to remain a sorcerer. One way could be to give the sorcerer a bonus metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level like the wizard. I’m using the spontaneous metamagic from UA. I always thought the core metamagic was too steep. First you have to burn a feat, and then you have to pay a price to use it. Another option is to allow the sorcerer to apply metamagic to all his spells without any feats (or give him feats at the above mentionend levels), in the old fashion (i.e. it takes higher spell slots) and only for spells he casts as a sorcerer (most likely casting time will be a full round, not sure about that one). This makes it attractive to remain a sorcerer and not go PrC. Maybe a combination of these options is the way to go. I’m really hoping for some feedback. :)
Kem 03-03-04, 05:16 AM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane At higher levels, the point advantage that sorcerers have is hardly worth mentioning (only 17 points-enough to cast one more additional 9th level spell). And bear in mind that with a free scribe scroll feat, a wizard can cover for his lack of impromptu flexibility, while there is nothing a sorcerer can do about their spell-selection flexibility. Actually thats the problem in both the 2e and the 3e version of spells points. In 2e they gave out more points then they should have, in 3e they give out way fewer points then they should have. In the spell point varient you are unable to cast the same number os spells of each level as your non-spell point using cohort. Only advantage you have is more points to spend on higher level spells which is sizable, which i only see as a proiblem due to the scaling method used. To match the spellcasting power of normal characters they'd have 324 for wizards by level 20 and 486 for sorcerers by level 20.
Ellone 03-03-04, 10:22 AM	to recover balance you should maybe let the sorceror change his spell list more easily. Let the spell know table as it is but allow a sorceror to change one spell known per day using a spellbook or scroll. You would maybe need to add flavor in the way spell are changed to keep in touch with the sorceror flavor ( no studying )
Matrix Sorcica 03-03-04, 10:29 AM	Originally posted by Ellone to recover balance you should maybe let the sorceror change his spell list more easily. Let the spell know table as it is but allow a sorceror to change one spell known per day using a spellbook or scroll. You think this would be enough compared to a daily spell list wizard? I think you got the right point, but maybe it's not enough.. I don't know. But it actually resembles my own idea, it's just not so extreme. :cool: