Dealing with Spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dealing with Spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ashanti
01-13-06, 07:08 AM This is a little house rule we use to help get round the problem of spell casters at higher levels wiping the floor with opponents by taking a 5 foot step and casting save or die spells (or indead any spell).

You can only take a 5 foot step if the spell is quickened. Any other spell and you can't do it.

We find it keeps spell casters from ruling combats and means if a warrior type gets near a caster, the caster is in big trouble. This keeps our warrior type from feel that they might as well not be there and the caster types from cocking a snook at warrior types.

What do you think?

P.S. We play quite infrequently so there my be ways to break this that we have not seen yet.
Linkrulesx10
01-13-06, 07:19 AM Well that rule seems to acomplish nothing except nerfing the wizard... all it does is force the wizard to make concentration scheck that it should be able to make... especially if it is casting SoD spells... the rule itself makes no sense.
Missing Minds
01-13-06, 08:07 AM If you actually have wizards wiping the floor at high levels, I am more suspect that your DM isn't thinking through appropreate CRs for your group. Back in 3.0 (yes, before CRs were really thought through) one of the CR lvl 3's the DM pulled was 30 d8 skelletons. The party made mince meat out of the meat left over on those bones. It wasn't a challenge at all, but the players sure had fun killing everything.
It sounds more like your DM isn't using propper creatures, tactics, npc buffing, etc. more than wizards rulling fights. I don't know how many fights party's I have been a part of where the wizard at mid levels ruled, but at low and high levels ended up more as support for the over all goal than a killing machine. (this is not to mean they didn't get their kicks in.)

Sides, as stated. You remove the 5 foot step, who cares, cast defensively concentration check. What will you do now? House rule that concentration checks no longer happen? Also large monters's normally have reach, and what wizard lets monters get in range any way?
Darkmatter20
01-13-06, 08:09 AM Yeah I think you've encounter the generally accepted trend of warrior type versus caster type. Warrior type starts off stronger but around 10th level (really roughly) the caster types begin to become obviously a stronger character.

I don't think a rule about 5ft steps is going to change this.

Even with this rule, as Linkrulesx10 said, the caster just now has to make a concentration check to avoid the attack. Not exactly a big deal to a high level caster.

Thems the breaks I guess.

Check the wealth levels of each character. If the average wealth per character level is not being met then fighters (who rely heavily on equipment) will have a hard time.

Also throw in a spell immune creature or high spell resistance creature.
This shouldn't be done to excess or the casters will feel that you're trying to get at them so to speak (which you would be if all you used was spell immune creatures).
Ashanti
01-13-06, 08:12 AM It applies to all spell casters (and psionics) and although at higher levels of spell the concentration check for casting on the defensive is very easy to make, if the caster loses intitiative and takes damage (we're at high levels here) from a tooled up warrior type, the caster has a much harder time of making the skill check.

In our campaign a PC Mul Gladiator routinely gets in hits for over 25 points of damage: this puts the Conc Check at 35 if he hits his mark.

This is in no way a "sweet spot" for taking down casters but it means that casters are far more aware that they face a real risk if they get caught by an equivalent level warrior type.

Casters at higher levels are vastly more effective at higher levels than warrior types at acting on the battle grid and this House Rule only means that if he get caught out in the open one on one he is in a pretty tight spot. The Invisible Flying SoD monkey can still ply his trade if he wants, but seeing off a equal level Barabarian standing 5 feet apart is a much more riskiy proposition.
Ashanti
01-13-06, 08:25 AM Yeah, styles of play could be the thing. We have a large proportion of humanoid foes and little in the way of fantastical creatures. The opponents tend to be warrior types and our PC warriors get a bit annoyed that the casters can deck several mooks quicker than they can.

The thing was the humanoid foes would get to melee the casters: a Mul Water Cleric and a feral Halfling Wizard, who would step back and unleash hell. This rule means the risk in that situation is higher for the caster. If he get caught, he has to stand and fight or leg it. He can't keep doing the 5 foot step caster dance.

Good point about the Wealth Darkmatter. Playing on Athas there is a derth of wealth and so we find this rule let a Gladiator with a club put a hurt on the Royal Defiler.
20102000
01-13-06, 08:46 AM Your saying a wizard takes a 5' step back and casts a spell wiping the floor with the monsters.
Well when the wizard was standing next to monster , why didn't they just kill him?
At high level , monsters can deal out lots of damage, from combat , spells or SU , usually alot more than a wizard can risk taking.
Secondly, alot of high level save vs death spells, or damage dealing spells are limited. For instance circle of death, you can't cast till your 11th level. However its limited to killing 9 HD creatures. A typical CR11 monster is a barbed devil, which has 12HD, not to mention its great saves, SR and damage resistance.
You did mention warrior rather than monster, which may be the problem. a 15th level wizard should have around 30 to 70 hit points. A 15th level fighter should be hitting up to 3 times per round, for 15 to 25 points per blow. A wizard can't take that.
A more pracital suggestion rather than house rule is why doesn't the warrior just grapple. Its hard to cast spells in a grapple.
Ashanti
01-13-06, 09:03 AM @20102000
Yes, grappling is a way forwards I agree. However every opponent grappling the caster gets a bit dry after a while. Your point on hit points is well taken however, this does not come up a great deal as the casters tend to have high CON (Athas characters) and the mooks have average stats so damage is prehaps under represented.

I guess it does not help that one of our groups PCs is Mul Water Cleric with a STR 24.

I will suggest we try with more monsterous enemies, and less humanoid foes. This is something we have not really done. Thanks for your input :). Will let you know how it turns out.
20102000
01-13-06, 12:13 PM Somethings that may interest you are the combat actions from the book of iron might.
For example. there's a fencer feat that allows, among other things the fencer to advance a 5' step when his oppenent retreats a 5' step.
There's another feat that allows a attack as a free action , triggered by an oppenents movement.
Or there's special attacks , such as hit wizard in mouth/throat so he can't cast verbal components etc adds more variety than just hitting or grappling.
Ashanti
01-16-06, 08:16 AM Thanks for the tip mate, will look it up.
Valoy_Muniz
01-17-06, 09:11 AM I for one do find the wiz vs fighter balanced. for the first 1-4 fighters dominat wiz. from 5-10 fighter have a slight advantage over the wiz. 11-15 wiz have a adfvantage over the fighter and 16-20 the wiz dominates the fighter. If you look at this you can see it is pritty fair. Also maby you should throw some casters at them. Counter spell can mess with them. Also a spike chain fighter will nulify the 5' step. Let him charge and trip the casters. How about some nets. I no not think it needs a change in the rules but a change in how your npc's attack.

I also do not like the other change you put in about making the concentrain cheaks so much harder. Do you make the fighter have a harder time swinging his sword becouse he lost a ton of life before it was his turn?

After looking this over I am sorry it looks alittle harsh that is not my point I just can not think how I can soften it up.
DragonLord101
01-23-06, 02:26 AM I for one do find the wiz vs fighter balanced. for the first 1-4 fighters dominat wiz. from 5-10 fighter have a slight advantage over the wiz. 11-15 wiz have a adfvantage over the fighter and 16-20 the wiz dominates the fighter. If you look at this you can see it is pritty fair. Also maby you should throw some casters at them. Counter spell can mess with them. Also a spike chain fighter will nulify the 5' step. Let him charge and trip the casters. How about some nets. I no not think it needs a change in the rules but a change in how your npc's attack.

I also do not like the other change you put in about making the concentrain cheaks so much harder. Do you make the fighter have a harder time swinging his sword becouse he lost a ton of life before it was his turn?

After looking this over I am sorry it looks alittle harsh that is not my point I just can not think how I can soften it up.

I definently agree with you mate.
20102000
01-23-06, 09:19 AM A small carry over from 1st edition, which is still partially true with 3rd . Is that Wizards trump fighters, fighters trump rogues, rogues trump wizards, and cleric trump everyone. So wizards may well be succesful against fighters. So perhaps you should put rogues and clerics up agianst the wizards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashanti 01-13-06, 07:08 AM	This is a little house rule we use to help get round the problem of spell casters at higher levels wiping the floor with opponents by taking a 5 foot step and casting save or die spells (or indead any spell). You can only take a 5 foot step if the spell is quickened. Any other spell and you can't do it. We find it keeps spell casters from ruling combats and means if a warrior type gets near a caster, the caster is in big trouble. This keeps our warrior type from feel that they might as well not be there and the caster types from cocking a snook at warrior types. What do you think? P.S. We play quite infrequently so there my be ways to break this that we have not seen yet.
Linkrulesx10 01-13-06, 07:19 AM	Well that rule seems to acomplish nothing except nerfing the wizard... all it does is force the wizard to make concentration scheck that it should be able to make... especially if it is casting SoD spells... the rule itself makes no sense.
Missing Minds 01-13-06, 08:07 AM	If you actually have wizards wiping the floor at high levels, I am more suspect that your DM isn't thinking through appropreate CRs for your group. Back in 3.0 (yes, before CRs were really thought through) one of the CR lvl 3's the DM pulled was 30 d8 skelletons. The party made mince meat out of the meat left over on those bones. It wasn't a challenge at all, but the players sure had fun killing everything. It sounds more like your DM isn't using propper creatures, tactics, npc buffing, etc. more than wizards rulling fights. I don't know how many fights party's I have been a part of where the wizard at mid levels ruled, but at low and high levels ended up more as support for the over all goal than a killing machine. (this is not to mean they didn't get their kicks in.) Sides, as stated. You remove the 5 foot step, who cares, cast defensively concentration check. What will you do now? House rule that concentration checks no longer happen? Also large monters's normally have reach, and what wizard lets monters get in range any way?
Darkmatter20 01-13-06, 08:09 AM	Yeah I think you've encounter the generally accepted trend of warrior type versus caster type. Warrior type starts off stronger but around 10th level (really roughly) the caster types begin to become obviously a stronger character. I don't think a rule about 5ft steps is going to change this. Even with this rule, as Linkrulesx10 said, the caster just now has to make a concentration check to avoid the attack. Not exactly a big deal to a high level caster. Thems the breaks I guess. Check the wealth levels of each character. If the average wealth per character level is not being met then fighters (who rely heavily on equipment) will have a hard time. Also throw in a spell immune creature or high spell resistance creature. This shouldn't be done to excess or the casters will feel that you're trying to get at them so to speak (which you would be if all you used was spell immune creatures).
Ashanti 01-13-06, 08:12 AM	It applies to all spell casters (and psionics) and although at higher levels of spell the concentration check for casting on the defensive is very easy to make, if the caster loses intitiative and takes damage (we're at high levels here) from a tooled up warrior type, the caster has a much harder time of making the skill check. In our campaign a PC Mul Gladiator routinely gets in hits for over 25 points of damage: this puts the Conc Check at 35 if he hits his mark. This is in no way a "sweet spot" for taking down casters but it means that casters are far more aware that they face a real risk if they get caught by an equivalent level warrior type. Casters at higher levels are vastly more effective at higher levels than warrior types at acting on the battle grid and this House Rule only means that if he get caught out in the open one on one he is in a pretty tight spot. The Invisible Flying SoD monkey can still ply his trade if he wants, but seeing off a equal level Barabarian standing 5 feet apart is a much more riskiy proposition.
Ashanti 01-13-06, 08:25 AM	Yeah, styles of play could be the thing. We have a large proportion of humanoid foes and little in the way of fantastical creatures. The opponents tend to be warrior types and our PC warriors get a bit annoyed that the casters can deck several mooks quicker than they can. The thing was the humanoid foes would get to melee the casters: a Mul Water Cleric and a feral Halfling Wizard, who would step back and unleash hell. This rule means the risk in that situation is higher for the caster. If he get caught, he has to stand and fight or leg it. He can't keep doing the 5 foot step caster dance. Good point about the Wealth Darkmatter. Playing on Athas there is a derth of wealth and so we find this rule let a Gladiator with a club put a hurt on the Royal Defiler.
20102000 01-13-06, 08:46 AM	Your saying a wizard takes a 5' step back and casts a spell wiping the floor with the monsters. Well when the wizard was standing next to monster , why didn't they just kill him? At high level , monsters can deal out lots of damage, from combat , spells or SU , usually alot more than a wizard can risk taking. Secondly, alot of high level save vs death spells, or damage dealing spells are limited. For instance circle of death, you can't cast till your 11th level. However its limited to killing 9 HD creatures. A typical CR11 monster is a barbed devil, which has 12HD, not to mention its great saves, SR and damage resistance. You did mention warrior rather than monster, which may be the problem. a 15th level wizard should have around 30 to 70 hit points. A 15th level fighter should be hitting up to 3 times per round, for 15 to 25 points per blow. A wizard can't take that. A more pracital suggestion rather than house rule is why doesn't the warrior just grapple. Its hard to cast spells in a grapple.
Ashanti 01-13-06, 09:03 AM	@20102000 Yes, grappling is a way forwards I agree. However every opponent grappling the caster gets a bit dry after a while. Your point on hit points is well taken however, this does not come up a great deal as the casters tend to have high CON (Athas characters) and the mooks have average stats so damage is prehaps under represented. I guess it does not help that one of our groups PCs is Mul Water Cleric with a STR 24. I will suggest we try with more monsterous enemies, and less humanoid foes. This is something we have not really done. Thanks for your input :). Will let you know how it turns out.
20102000 01-13-06, 12:13 PM	Somethings that may interest you are the combat actions from the book of iron might. For example. there's a fencer feat that allows, among other things the fencer to advance a 5' step when his oppenent retreats a 5' step. There's another feat that allows a attack as a free action , triggered by an oppenents movement. Or there's special attacks , such as hit wizard in mouth/throat so he can't cast verbal components etc adds more variety than just hitting or grappling.
Ashanti 01-16-06, 08:16 AM	Thanks for the tip mate, will look it up.
Valoy_Muniz 01-17-06, 09:11 AM	I for one do find the wiz vs fighter balanced. for the first 1-4 fighters dominat wiz. from 5-10 fighter have a slight advantage over the wiz. 11-15 wiz have a adfvantage over the fighter and 16-20 the wiz dominates the fighter. If you look at this you can see it is pritty fair. Also maby you should throw some casters at them. Counter spell can mess with them. Also a spike chain fighter will nulify the 5' step. Let him charge and trip the casters. How about some nets. I no not think it needs a change in the rules but a change in how your npc's attack. I also do not like the other change you put in about making the concentrain cheaks so much harder. Do you make the fighter have a harder time swinging his sword becouse he lost a ton of life before it was his turn? After looking this over I am sorry it looks alittle harsh that is not my point I just can not think how I can soften it up.
DragonLord101 01-23-06, 02:26 AM	I for one do find the wiz vs fighter balanced. for the first 1-4 fighters dominat wiz. from 5-10 fighter have a slight advantage over the wiz. 11-15 wiz have a adfvantage over the fighter and 16-20 the wiz dominates the fighter. If you look at this you can see it is pritty fair. Also maby you should throw some casters at them. Counter spell can mess with them. Also a spike chain fighter will nulify the 5' step. Let him charge and trip the casters. How about some nets. I no not think it needs a change in the rules but a change in how your npc's attack. I also do not like the other change you put in about making the concentrain cheaks so much harder. Do you make the fighter have a harder time swinging his sword becouse he lost a ton of life before it was his turn? After looking this over I am sorry it looks alittle harsh that is not my point I just can not think how I can soften it up. I definently agree with you mate.
20102000 01-23-06, 09:19 AM	A small carry over from 1st edition, which is still partially true with 3rd . Is that Wizards trump fighters, fighters trump rogues, rogues trump wizards, and cleric trump everyone. So wizards may well be succesful against fighters. So perhaps you should put rogues and clerics up agianst the wizards.