Death at negative [lowest ability score] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death at negative [lowest ability score] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Emirikol
11-21-05, 05:27 PM When it comes to charisma, it's a worthless stat in most combat-oriented games. Swords overcome diplomacy and bluff in the end, so why bother?

I guess I should put some kind of encouraging mechanic in the house rules though. I'm thinkin that the Personal Magetism and Death at negative (charisma) rule would be cool. I guarantee you that it would become important REALLY FAST in that case.

..which leads me to..could intelligence be brought into the same sort of situation? Can you keep your way out of the abyss by mentalism? Perhaps, "The PC's lowest statistic is the one that they use for death in negatives."

I don't know though that intelligence or wisdom could be used for some kind of negative thing. I suppose "Don't go into the light" is what we're talking about with Charisma, it's not impossible to say the same thing about outsmarting Charon or having a strong willpower (not the saving throw).

Thoughts?

jh
Kalriem
11-21-05, 07:46 PM I have some thoughts.
I think it's a dumb idea.
There's no reason for it. Players will dump what they will, and you punishing them for that will only give you angry or non-existant players.
Some players like having a low score, especially in the mental category, because they enjoy the roleplaying opportunities it provides. This penalizes them for giving up power for roleplaying.
And, like you said, those stats which they dump are almost completely useless to them anyway. So you're punishing them for picking the class/style/feats that they chose.
Besides, under your rules it doesn't matter which score they dump it into. Any way they put it means they die soon anyway. Which means that if they get a really low score, they're going to have to put it somewhere, and that means undue penalization for bad luck.
spectralphoenix
11-21-05, 09:59 PM Besides which, this means a halfling sorceror will stay alive longer than a half-orc barbarian.
lostone
11-22-05, 08:32 AM There is no need. If you want to punish a player for always using the same dump stat, hit them with enough poison arrows for them to fail saves so that stat drops to 0. Any stat other than Con that drops to 0 results in the character effectively being unconscious or immobilized. If they are immobile they are easilly a victim to a coup de grace.

But you shouldn't punish a player for being smart about attribute placement, most melee characters are going to use charisma as a dump stat unless they also want to be suave, in which case it'll probably be wisdom.

Just throw an adventure at them where violence does NOT solve everything (such as going to a fancy ball at the palace, surrounded by hundreds of guards like palaces usually are). If the guards are all hardened veterans and the group is low level (6 or less) they should be wary about starting violence. If they have a goal they need to accomplish here it will have to be through subtlety and espionage.
Pz.Az.04Maus
11-22-05, 09:42 AM Well, the only way I could think of adding Cha into the dump catagory would be to include more incentive for grabbing peoples attention, and to get inside your NPC's "Personal Life," if you will. This is fairly disturbing, I know, and the worst part is that they even have a book on it, but unless you have very Immature and stupid players, it might be more meaningful. There is a great netbook detailing on this ( I think it was actually the original version of The book of Er**** Fantasy), but thats the only way I could think of. No, I'm not thinking with the mayor of "DOWNTOWN."

For intelligence/wisdom, I think maybe you should require at least some int/wis requirements for professions (Like you need at least 16 intelligence/8 wisdom to be a physics Professor, like Einstein, who wasn't very wise to himself). Or a 12Str/14Int/11Wis to be able to be a Sword maker (and, the better the Intelligence/wisdom, the better the sword!). Strength is needed for the ability to hammer out the sword, the wits and brains are needed to effectively think about what you need to do as to make that damn piece of iron in front of you into a very nice sword for that king (Masterwork x2, anybody?!), and make that sword look pretty as well.
Emirikol
11-22-05, 03:23 PM By george, my players thought it was a good idea!

One guy grumbled that he would be less inclined to munchkinize his character if having even one ability score under 10 would increase his chances of dying (we use point-buy for ability scores btw), but he agreed that this would definately be a 'used' item more in our games if we did it.

Now to playtest it..we have an 'experimental' playtest listing so if anybody 'dies' they don't.

ANybody else going to try it?

jh
Emirikol
11-22-05, 03:24 PM This rule has not yet been instituted, but probably will sometime in the future:

November 26, 2005 (not in play)

The Grip of the Underworld:
A character dies once he reaches negative [lowest ability score]. Whatever your lowest ability is whatever death uses to grab and pull you into the darkness. If it is charisma for example, death will use your lack of magnetism to existance to tear your soul from your body and drag it screaming into the great, gaping maw of the nothing.

This rule is being tested to see if the 'dump stat' theory is true. If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't?
Kalriem
11-22-05, 04:37 PM If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't?
A DM never needs to create an adventure to prove anything. A DM creates an adventure only for his own and his player's enjoyment. If you want a high charisma game, and your players agree with you, go for it. If they (and you) prefer the bash in the door style, that's ok too.
Otherwise you end up with a boring game, angry players, and a lack of motivation to develop your next game session.

In addition, charisma isn't useless. It is very useful to those who use it (sorcs, pals, etc.) and utterly meaningless to those who don't (figt, wiz, etc.) Don't force someone to have something that they wont use, especially when it costs that person something in the long run.
Emirikol
11-22-05, 05:03 PM I want to do EVERYTHING though. Just because people min-max their characters shouldn't keep me from running the occasional game where you have to use things other than brute strength and great cleave.

In a sense, what I really want is a system where players are encouraged to diversify rather than specialize. D&D encourages players to not just specialize, but over specialize so that the games feel so railroaded just to entertain the players that it's just a boring old waste half the time.

jh
lostone
11-23-05, 09:31 AM This rule is being tested to see if the 'dump stat' theory is true. If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't?Charisma is not useless. It influences how people see you and interact with you. Every group of adventurers needs a "face", that is a person with an above average charisma, good diplomacy skills. The person that makes the deals with patrons and people hiring the group, deals with the authorities when the group gets in trouble, makes the speeches when the group is the center of attention at an awards ceremony, etc. It could also influence the prices the group pays for products. If you really want to make them feel that charisma is worth while, start adjusting prices for goods and gear based on their charisma. Apply a price modifier of (-5 * char mod)% to prices, so someone with an 18 charisma will be paying 20% less for goods and someone with a 2 charisma will be paying 20% *more* for goods.

Or just have people refuse to sell to the ugly, unfriendly and bad tempered PCs with the 3 charisma, or want to hire them, etc. Make them untouchables. Pretty people get (on average) better treatment, it applies in the real world too, sadly enough.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-23-05, 10:54 PM How exactly would Charisma affect how long it takes you to bleed out? What, are you convincing the blood to stay in your body longer?

If you want to encourage Charisma in fighting games, reward the use of Bluff and Intimidate, both skills have combat uses.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emirikol 11-21-05, 05:27 PM	When it comes to charisma, it's a worthless stat in most combat-oriented games. Swords overcome diplomacy and bluff in the end, so why bother? I guess I should put some kind of encouraging mechanic in the house rules though. I'm thinkin that the Personal Magetism and Death at negative (charisma) rule would be cool. I guarantee you that it would become important REALLY FAST in that case. ..which leads me to..could intelligence be brought into the same sort of situation? Can you keep your way out of the abyss by mentalism? Perhaps, "The PC's lowest statistic is the one that they use for death in negatives." I don't know though that intelligence or wisdom could be used for some kind of negative thing. I suppose "Don't go into the light" is what we're talking about with Charisma, it's not impossible to say the same thing about outsmarting Charon or having a strong willpower (not the saving throw). Thoughts? jh
Kalriem 11-21-05, 07:46 PM	I have some thoughts. I think it's a dumb idea. There's no reason for it. Players will dump what they will, and you punishing them for that will only give you angry or non-existant players. Some players like having a low score, especially in the mental category, because they enjoy the roleplaying opportunities it provides. This penalizes them for giving up power for roleplaying. And, like you said, those stats which they dump are almost completely useless to them anyway. So you're punishing them for picking the class/style/feats that they chose. Besides, under your rules it doesn't matter which score they dump it into. Any way they put it means they die soon anyway. Which means that if they get a really low score, they're going to have to put it somewhere, and that means undue penalization for bad luck.
spectralphoenix 11-21-05, 09:59 PM	Besides which, this means a halfling sorceror will stay alive longer than a half-orc barbarian.
lostone 11-22-05, 08:32 AM	There is no need. If you want to punish a player for always using the same dump stat, hit them with enough poison arrows for them to fail saves so that stat drops to 0. Any stat other than Con that drops to 0 results in the character effectively being unconscious or immobilized. If they are immobile they are easilly a victim to a coup de grace. But you shouldn't punish a player for being smart about attribute placement, most melee characters are going to use charisma as a dump stat unless they also want to be suave, in which case it'll probably be wisdom. Just throw an adventure at them where violence does NOT solve everything (such as going to a fancy ball at the palace, surrounded by hundreds of guards like palaces usually are). If the guards are all hardened veterans and the group is low level (6 or less) they should be wary about starting violence. If they have a goal they need to accomplish here it will have to be through subtlety and espionage.
Pz.Az.04Maus 11-22-05, 09:42 AM	Well, the only way I could think of adding Cha into the dump catagory would be to include more incentive for grabbing peoples attention, and to get inside your NPC's "Personal Life," if you will. This is fairly disturbing, I know, and the worst part is that they even have a book on it, but unless you have very Immature and stupid players, it might be more meaningful. There is a great netbook detailing on this ( I think it was actually the original version of The book of Er**** Fantasy), but thats the only way I could think of. No, I'm not thinking with the mayor of "DOWNTOWN." For intelligence/wisdom, I think maybe you should require at least some int/wis requirements for professions (Like you need at least 16 intelligence/8 wisdom to be a physics Professor, like Einstein, who wasn't very wise to himself). Or a 12Str/14Int/11Wis to be able to be a Sword maker (and, the better the Intelligence/wisdom, the better the sword!). Strength is needed for the ability to hammer out the sword, the wits and brains are needed to effectively think about what you need to do as to make that damn piece of iron in front of you into a very nice sword for that king (Masterwork x2, anybody?!), and make that sword look pretty as well.
Emirikol 11-22-05, 03:23 PM	By george, my players thought it was a good idea! One guy grumbled that he would be less inclined to munchkinize his character if having even one ability score under 10 would increase his chances of dying (we use point-buy for ability scores btw), but he agreed that this would definately be a 'used' item more in our games if we did it. Now to playtest it..we have an 'experimental' playtest listing so if anybody 'dies' they don't. ANybody else going to try it? jh
Emirikol 11-22-05, 03:24 PM	This rule has not yet been instituted, but probably will sometime in the future: November 26, 2005 (not in play) The Grip of the Underworld: A character dies once he reaches negative [lowest ability score]. Whatever your lowest ability is whatever death uses to grab and pull you into the darkness. If it is charisma for example, death will use your lack of magnetism to existance to tear your soul from your body and drag it screaming into the great, gaping maw of the nothing. This rule is being tested to see if the 'dump stat' theory is true. If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't?
Kalriem 11-22-05, 04:37 PM	If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't? A DM never needs to create an adventure to prove anything. A DM creates an adventure only for his own and his player's enjoyment. If you want a high charisma game, and your players agree with you, go for it. If they (and you) prefer the bash in the door style, that's ok too. Otherwise you end up with a boring game, angry players, and a lack of motivation to develop your next game session. In addition, charisma isn't useless. It is very useful to those who use it (sorcs, pals, etc.) and utterly meaningless to those who don't (figt, wiz, etc.) Don't force someone to have something that they wont use, especially when it costs that person something in the long run.
Emirikol 11-22-05, 05:03 PM	I want to do EVERYTHING though. Just because people min-max their characters shouldn't keep me from running the occasional game where you have to use things other than brute strength and great cleave. In a sense, what I really want is a system where players are encouraged to diversify rather than specialize. D&D encourages players to not just specialize, but over specialize so that the games feel so railroaded just to entertain the players that it's just a boring old waste half the time. jh
lostone 11-23-05, 09:31 AM	This rule is being tested to see if the 'dump stat' theory is true. If charisma is in fact useless, why should a DM have to create adventures to prove it isn't?Charisma is not useless. It influences how people see you and interact with you. Every group of adventurers needs a "face", that is a person with an above average charisma, good diplomacy skills. The person that makes the deals with patrons and people hiring the group, deals with the authorities when the group gets in trouble, makes the speeches when the group is the center of attention at an awards ceremony, etc. It could also influence the prices the group pays for products. If you really want to make them feel that charisma is worth while, start adjusting prices for goods and gear based on their charisma. Apply a price modifier of (-5 * char mod)% to prices, so someone with an 18 charisma will be paying 20% less for goods and someone with a 2 charisma will be paying 20% more for goods. Or just have people refuse to sell to the ugly, unfriendly and bad tempered PCs with the 3 charisma, or want to hire them, etc. Make them untouchables. Pretty people get (on average) better treatment, it applies in the real world too, sadly enough.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-23-05, 10:54 PM	How exactly would Charisma affect how long it takes you to bleed out? What, are you convincing the blood to stay in your body longer? If you want to encourage Charisma in fighting games, reward the use of Bluff and Intimidate, both skills have combat uses.