Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterOfPsychic 12-26-05, 05:13 PM	Would it unbalance anything if we changed the "death-door" to your con? EG. A Dwarf with 20 con isn't dead until he reaches -20, and a Elven Wizard with 6 Con dies at -6? I know that this would give most people at little less HP before dying, but not so much that it matters.. It would just keep more people from dying... Or perhaps take the HD, + Con modifier... But this would kill a lot of casters... So perhaps add a feat which alters the deathdoor...
AbuDhabi 12-26-05, 05:28 PM	Well, this kind of variant would really help those with Diehard. Seems logical, though. On the other hand... I've seen very few people intentionally giving their characters Constitution scores of less than 10.
MasterOfPsychic 12-26-05, 05:54 PM	Exactly, it boosts the deathdoor in 99.99% of the cases, but that don't hurt does it? It only keeps folks from dying... Exept if you have Diehard, then it could be muched... But that's ok...
LordofNightmares 12-26-05, 06:09 PM	Any little rule tweaks that helps players live longer, but does not aleviate the elssons learend from getting their bums kicked from here to the moon that doesn't feel like Deus ex Machina, is a good idea. I've been doing a similar thing for a while. Death's Door in my games is 10 + Con modifier. It does not benefit higher Con characters as much as yours does, it penalizes low con characters less. But I tend to use lower Ability Score games. Char Gen in my games are a modified type 2. 6 base in all, 24 points. Its not umcommon for my games to have a 8, 9 or 10 con character, especailly when they need the Ability points for that 16 or 17 they need in their Int, Wis or Cha for their spellcasting.
MasterOfPsychic 12-26-05, 06:18 PM	Ok, thanks for the support... Then I'd make it a houserule form my campaign... And I'd as well put it on my webpage...
RaspK FOG 12-26-05, 07:09 PM	I do something slightly different: I use 10 + one's Consitution modifier as a percentage instead of 10% in regard to whether you stabilise or not; you can always use one's Constitution score, of course...
MasterOfPsychic 12-26-05, 07:24 PM	Well, that would be a competely different topic :P But isn't that quite a minor change? like -5 to +5 % chance to stabilize?
Mac Awol 12-27-05, 12:49 AM	Well, that would be a competely different topic :P But isn't that quite a minor change? like -5 to +5 % chance to stabilize? Yeah, but when you are hovering at Death's Door even minor bonuses can save a players's day. We use Death at -CON, and stabilize at 10 % + a clean roll of 42 % (in honor of Douglas Adams) But I like the Death at -(10 + Con Modifier) and stabilize at 10 + Con modifier percentage, so I will borrow both house rules for my games.
belthazzar1113 12-27-05, 03:20 AM	i actually like what i have been doing. deaths door lasts from -1 to 5+con mod + wis mod+ level or HD. You can hang on through endurance, or force of will, or though sheer veteran grit. It makes deaths door a little smaller at lower levels (which is we use the newbie luck rules) but it makes it nice at high levels so you have a good chance of hitting those death's door ranges. never had a problem with diehard... usally once your fighting in diehard one more hit will kill you. This just widens the window for you to activate diehard.
MasterOfPsychic 12-27-05, 07:40 AM	Oh, right... I liked the last one there... It's only a little hard to calculate though... But.. Hmm... belthazzar1113? Would you mind if I added your Death's Door rule to my homepage's DeathDoorProject? check out http://www.home.no/angstman I you want to see... It's still under EARLY developement though... On a second thought.. I'll PM that to you... :D
WayneTheGame 12-27-05, 08:52 AM	My group almost always uses this houserule in our games... it's never made a difference, to date. We also tend to use the stablize percentage chance is equal to your CON score. That, too, has never made a difference.
Earthbeard 12-27-05, 09:52 AM	My group almost always uses this houserule in our games... it's never made a difference, to date. We also tend to use the stablize percentage chance is equal to your CON score. That, too, has never made a difference. Thats the rule in all of the games i Run. Rubbed off on the other players when they run games (yeah right as if they do). Never had a problem with balance for it, just gives them a tiny bit more breathing room.
lostone 12-27-05, 10:05 AM	Would it unbalance anything if we changed the "death-door" to your con? EG. A Dwarf with 20 con isn't dead until he reaches -20, and a Elven Wizard with 6 Con dies at -6? I know that this would give most people at little less HP before dying, but not so much that it matters.. It would just keep more people from dying... Or perhaps take the HD, + Con modifier... But this would kill a lot of casters... So perhaps add a feat which alters the deathdoor...We've done it this way for a few years, has caused no problems so far and extends the lifespan of characters more. Even most of our spellcasters try to keep at least 10 Con so it doesn't hurt them any, and gives healers more time to make the rounds and save a dying character.
april151978 12-27-05, 11:53 AM	I have been doing that with my worlds and games since shortly after 3.0 came out... That rule was player suggested, and has lead to little if any problems except for the change of wounding to con reduction instead of bleed damage... Besides that beign more frightening that vorpal, it's been a welcome change to almost every player I have played with... Even some DMs I know use it too...
Edymnion 12-27-05, 01:18 PM	I'll go against the grain and say that no, its not a good idea. High Con characters already get an extra buffer between themselves and death, its called more hitpoints. The Dwarf with a 20 Con is already getting +5 hitpoints every level, he doesn't need to double dip on top of that again in the negative direction. Negative HP are supposed to be the point where you have suffered such massive injury that you are no longer capable of doing anything but lay there and die (unless you're lucky and stabilize). It doesn't matter how tough you are, you *WILL* reach that state. How hard it is to knock you down to there is represented by your hitpoints. All you're really doing is punishing the low Con people, and letting the high con people double dip.
MasterOfPsychic 12-27-05, 01:23 PM	Well, since, unless it is a low-power campaign, it doesnt exist low con chars, its ok, I suppose... Crap english..
AbuDhabi 12-27-05, 01:52 PM	Negative HP are supposed to be the point where you have suffered such massive injury that you are no longer capable of doing anything but lay there and die (unless you're lucky and stabilize). It doesn't matter how tough you are, you *WILL* reach that state. How hard it is to knock you down to there is represented by your hitpoints. Bah! Constitution measures health and stamina, the body's resilence and all that. I think it would be logical that a high Con character's body is way tougher to destroy, has better healing capacity, etc. Yes, lying there dying doesn't allow any conscious measures to prevent death, but if your 'systems' are in tip-top shape, it stands to reason that death will be farther away than in the case of someone with severe health problems. Also, as I've said before, it is very rare for someone, anyone, to have a Con < 10. Under one of the Vitalizing variant rules, even casters require a high Constitution, for extra spells. No, I don't think that this idea is without merit.
Nartu 12-28-05, 12:05 AM	i actually like what i have been doing. deaths door lasts from -1 to 5+con mod + wis mod+ level or HD. You can hang on through endurance, or force of will, or though sheer veteran grit. It makes deaths door a little smaller at lower levels (which is we use the newbie luck rules) but it makes it nice at high levels so you have a good chance of hitting those death's door ranges. I like the idea of adding your wisdom mod! I've often felt that wisdom is a little underpowered itself, and I think that would fix it. Generally, I use the 1-10 being as stable. And then a roll of 100 being something strange happening; a celestial coming to the character's aid, finding a potion of cure critical buried in the ground, the red dragon dropping dead from heart failure etc etc.... With 1 out of 100 checks done like this it really doesn't make a difference in the game, and can give the DMs some fun when trying to quickly come up with an idea on the spot.
Tenzhi 12-28-05, 12:50 AM	High Con characters already get an extra buffer between themselves and death, its called more hitpoints. That it protects you from death is just an incidental - much like a high Strength protects you from death by allowing you to kill your opponent quicker, a high Dex protects you from death by allowing you to evade attacks and spells, etc. HPs are really just a buffer between you and being unconscious/dying. Once you run out of HP, everyone is on the same footing in regards to death. Unlike the buffer to uncosnsciousness, class doesn't even play a part in saving you from death. That said, while I'm personally in favour of the simpler method of just using Con or 10 + Con modifier, staving off death could be considered a unified subconscious effort of mind, body, and soul. As such, one might use the average of Con, Wis, and Cha (or even all six abilities if one is feeling ambitious).
Oneiros 12-29-05, 12:17 PM	I like the idea of adding your wisdom mod! I've often felt that wisdom is a little underpowered itself, and I think that would fix it. Hmmm... why not use the even more underpowered CHA instead? A wise person might be more willing to "go into the light" than a pig-headed, self-important high CHA dude anyway. :D
Oneiros 12-29-05, 12:35 PM	I use full CON score for my games, since I've seen characters at midlevels taken down to negative 30 and beyond with a critical. I also dislike the "disabled" condition only applying to when you're exactly zero HP. So to make a little more room for "desperate, last dying action", I allow a character to be disabled up to negative CON bonus. This borrows from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved quite a bit. As others pointed out, the Die Hard feat benefits quite a bit from this rule, so I also modified the feat to make it a little more risky to stay up and keep fighting when in negative hp's. Here's the house rules I use: Disabled: Characters can function as disabled from zero to negative CON bonus. A stabilization roll is not required when hit points are in this range. Dying: A character is dying when hit points are between negative CON bonus and negative CON. Stabilization rolls are required as normal in this range. If damage equals or exceeds negative CON, the character is dead. Example: A fighter with 18 CON (+4 CON bonus) becomes disabled from 0 to -4 hit points. He is dying from -5 to -17, and dead at -18 or more. ------ Diehard Prerequisite: Endurance. Benefit: When reduced to between negative CON Bonus and negative CON score, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round. When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1d3 points of damage after completing the act. If you reach negative CON hit points, you immediately die. Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to between negative CON Bonus and negative CON score hit points is unconscious and dying.
Luega 12-29-05, 12:47 PM	Hmm, I've been tinkering with an "infinite-negatives" variant. The basic idea is that you don't have a hard number where you die, but eventually the save gets so high that you just can't go on any more. When at negative HP you must roll a FORT save DC 10 + negative HP. If you fail you die (it happens). If you succeed you don't die, but you are still dying. If you suceed by 10 or more you stabilize. Not sure about the numbers yet, though. It helps aleviate the fear of being brought down to 1 or 2 HP, and then see that last attack that will certainly bring you down into the negative twenties come. It favors characters with high CON and FORT save classes, and by using a save, both natural ability and training/skill/experience comes into play. It aslo helps bring some reality back into the "recovering without magic" deal. If brought down to -76 HP it is going to be a while before you're up and running again. It still needs some work.
Oneiros 12-29-05, 01:01 PM	Hmm, I've been tinkering with an "infinite-negatives" variant. The basic idea is that you don't have a hard number where you die, but eventually the save gets so high that you just can't go on any more. When at negative HP you must roll a FORT save DC 10 + negative HP. If you fail you die (it happens). If you succeed you don't die, but you are still dying. If you suceed by 10 or more you stabilize. Not sure about the numbers yet, though. GURPS uses a similar method: make your first save at -Health (GURPS is more a CON = HP system), and then every five points afterwards. If you have Health 10 and get taken down to -20, then that's three saves you have to make in the round (one at -10, -15 and -20). I can't remember if the difficulty of the save (which is roll 3d6 below your Health score) increases or not. There is a limit to how far negative you can go, though, which is -5 * Health (I think). I mean, how much punishment can a body take and still be alive? At -10 * Health, there's nothing even recognizable to identify what species the corpse is.
Tetsubo 12-30-05, 09:22 AM	I'm working on a new campaign idea at the moment. I've altered Toughness to be +1 HP per level and changed Improved Toughness to increase the Death's Door number from -10 to -Con.
april151978 12-30-05, 02:28 PM	Bah! Constitution measures health and stamina, the body's resilence and all that. I think it would be logical that a high Con character's body is way tougher to destroy, has better healing capacity, etc. Yes, lying there dying doesn't allow any conscious measures to prevent death, but if your 'systems' are in tip-top shape, it stands to reason that death will be farther away than in the case of someone with severe health problems. Also, as I've said before, it is very rare for someone, anyone, to have a Con < 10. Under one of the Vitalizing variant rules, even casters require a high Constitution, for extra spells. No, I don't think that this idea is without merit. Thanks for the support AbuDhabi, my points exactly... Yes, it does allow those in top physical shape to "double-dip" the system, and that's how the real world works... If you get a disease in the D&D world that weakens you (aka Con loss), you should have less of a tollerance to being on death's door (-1 to -Con hp)... Yes, weak old casters might not like it, but at that point they should have more than enough arcane skill to not get near that weakened in the hp department... This also gives some time to the party cleric or other healer to get to you if you are out of the fight... Even a mere con of 11 means one extra round, and most charcters I have seen have at least an 11 in con... Edymnion, if you don't like this rule, the only thing I can say is to not use it...