Defence bonus and damage reduction from armor (from UA) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defence bonus and damage reduction from armor (from UA) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
antsterr
10-26-06, 08:35 PM Reading through UA I think I really like the proposed idea of a Defence bonus apart from armor bonus. But would it work combined with the Armor as damage reduction rule as well? would that over power your defence?

If you're unfamiliar with these rules it basically goes like this.
Rather then relying on your armor for AC you get a Defence bonus that relates to your class and level. Fighters clerics and paladins get the highest starting at +6, wizards sorcerers and monks are the lowest starting at +2. Defence bonus reflects your skills in defending your self, it adds to your AC but does not stack with the bonus for worn armor. You would use what ever bonus is higher in any given situation. Defence would increase your touch AC as well. This makes it nice for situations when you're in your armor.

Damage reduction from armor works like so:
To determine the damage reduction of armor divide it's given Armor bonus by two and round down. The difference becomes the new AC. So Half plate armor bonus +7 would become damage reduction 3 armour bonus +4. Damage reduction from armor stacks with all other damage reduction you might otherwise have.

Now if you combined these two methods, a 4th level fighter in banded mail and a medium shield with a dex of 13 would have

AC 20 (10+7 Defence bonus +2 shield bonus +1 dex bonus)
DR 3 (half the normal AC of the banded mail)
By standard rules he'd be at AC 19

Flat footed he'd have
AC 15 (10+3 Banded mail +2 shield)
DR 3
By standard rules he'd be at AC 18

Touch would be
AC 18 (10+7 Defence bonus +1 dex)
DR 3
By standard rules he'd be at AC 11

I do like that this allows higher level characters do better when no in armor, it also gives players with no armor proficiencies an edge. But what are some foreseeable drawbacks to this system? It's a little more complicated, but not bad. I'd have to rule that criticals bypass the DR gained from armor. I might also say that your defence bonus suffers a -2 penalty when your unarmed, armed with a range weapon or you're armed with a weapon your not proficient with to reflect a bonus to defence you'd get from parrying.

Is this too complicated? does this break the system?
allenchan
10-26-06, 09:07 PM The two variants can be used together, as the sidebar mentions on page 112. I used it with no alterations.

In fact, the only thing I would change is the mutliclassing rules. I'd have it be class A's defense bonus + class B's defense bonus / 2

Remember that spells like mage armor wouuld be givign DR 2/- as well.

I like it for swashbuckling games and the like, where the flavor doesnt really mesh well with everyone in full plates (or mithral breastplates)
Oneiros
10-27-06, 01:53 PM Reading through UA I think I really like the proposed idea of a Defence bonus apart from armor bonus. But would it work combined with the Armor as damage reduction rule as well?
Two words for ya: Iron Heroes. In that d20 product, characters get a defense bonus, and armor gives variable DR. DR is essentially a die roll with a max value equal to the armor's bonus in the core rules. So Full Plate (+8 Armor, normally) gives 1d8 DR.

Shields add to your defense bonus. A magical bonus on armor adds a flat modifier to the DR: +2 plate mail has DR 1d8+2.

As for a penalty to characters that don't threaten an area (unarmed or armed with a ranged weapon), I don't think it's neccessary. With a weapon, you mainly rely on your parries and blocks for defense; without such a weapon, you're simply dodging and ducking more, but the end result is the same mechanically. If you're doing both, well, that's what the fighting defensively and full-defense actions represent.

A penalty for being non-proficient in a weapon seems like a good idea, though it'll probably rarely come up in play. I'd also suggest a non-proficieny defense penalty for armor, as well. You make yourself easier to hit, hoping the DR of that uncomfortable armor makes up for it.
Pellanor
10-27-06, 02:33 PM Two words for ya: Iron Heroes. In that d20 product, characters get a defense bonus, and armor gives variable DR. DR is essentially a die roll with a max value equal to the armor's bonus in the core rules. So Full Plate (+8 Armor, normally) gives 1d8 DR.So you would have DR 1d5/- for a breastplate? or DR 1d7/- for half plate? Where does one find these dice? I know you can get speciality d5, or just use FLOOR(1d10/2), but what about the d7? (edit: Advancing Hordes (http://www.advancinghordes.com/) has d14, and an out of stock d7.)

Also, how are magical enchantments handled? Would +5 Full plate give DR 13/- or DR 1d8+5/-?

The one complaint I've always had about using Armour as DR is that the Breastplate would be exactly the same as Scale Mail. This seems to solve that problem, if you have the weird dice for doing so, and don't mind the extra die roll involved with every successful attack.
Oneiros
10-27-06, 02:58 PM So you would have DR 1d5/- for a breastplate? or DR 1d7/- for half plate? Where does one find these dice? I know you can get speciality d5, or just use FLOOR(1d10/2), but what about the d7? (edit: Advancing Hordes (http://www.advancinghordes.com/) has d14, and an out of stock d7.)
Yes, some armors have odd max values, but I'd say just use the next higher real die, and ignore max values (either re-roll, or read it as a slightly above average roll of dX/2).

Also, how are magical enchantments handled? Would +5 Full plate give DR 13/- or DR 1d8+5/-?
Mentioned in my first post, but it would be the latter: DR 1d8+5/-. Essentially, it means magic weapon bonuses and magic armor bonuses would cancel each other out on a plus per plus basis.

The one complaint I've always had about using Armour as DR is that the Breastplate would be exactly the same as Scale Mail. This seems to solve that problem, if you have the weird dice for doing so, and don't mind the extra die roll involved with every successful attack.
One nice thing is it's the defender rolling on the attack, giving him something to do other than just mark off hit points. Plus the player gets to feel like he's actively contributing to his own defense.

One thing I should mention: in Iron Heroes, creatures without class levels don't get a Defense bonus, and natural armor doesn't provide DR, it functions as normal, adding to AC.
Pellanor
10-27-06, 04:23 PM Mentioned in my first post, but it would be the latter: DR 1d8+5/-. Essentially, it means magic weapon bonuses and magic armor bonuses would cancel each other out on a plus per plus basis.I could have sworn you said Shield last time, not magical bonus. Are you sure you didn't edit it on me?

One nice thing is it's the defender rolling on the attack, giving him something to do other than just mark off hit points. Plus the player gets to feel like he's actively contributing to his own defense.True. I've been looking at the Players roll the Dice variant for just this reason.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
antsterr 10-26-06, 08:35 PM	Reading through UA I think I really like the proposed idea of a Defence bonus apart from armor bonus. But would it work combined with the Armor as damage reduction rule as well? would that over power your defence? If you're unfamiliar with these rules it basically goes like this. Rather then relying on your armor for AC you get a Defence bonus that relates to your class and level. Fighters clerics and paladins get the highest starting at +6, wizards sorcerers and monks are the lowest starting at +2. Defence bonus reflects your skills in defending your self, it adds to your AC but does not stack with the bonus for worn armor. You would use what ever bonus is higher in any given situation. Defence would increase your touch AC as well. This makes it nice for situations when you're in your armor. Damage reduction from armor works like so: To determine the damage reduction of armor divide it's given Armor bonus by two and round down. The difference becomes the new AC. So Half plate armor bonus +7 would become damage reduction 3 armour bonus +4. Damage reduction from armor stacks with all other damage reduction you might otherwise have. Now if you combined these two methods, a 4th level fighter in banded mail and a medium shield with a dex of 13 would have AC 20 (10+7 Defence bonus +2 shield bonus +1 dex bonus) DR 3 (half the normal AC of the banded mail) By standard rules he'd be at AC 19 Flat footed he'd have AC 15 (10+3 Banded mail +2 shield) DR 3 By standard rules he'd be at AC 18 Touch would be AC 18 (10+7 Defence bonus +1 dex) DR 3 By standard rules he'd be at AC 11 I do like that this allows higher level characters do better when no in armor, it also gives players with no armor proficiencies an edge. But what are some foreseeable drawbacks to this system? It's a little more complicated, but not bad. I'd have to rule that criticals bypass the DR gained from armor. I might also say that your defence bonus suffers a -2 penalty when your unarmed, armed with a range weapon or you're armed with a weapon your not proficient with to reflect a bonus to defence you'd get from parrying. Is this too complicated? does this break the system?
allenchan 10-26-06, 09:07 PM	The two variants can be used together, as the sidebar mentions on page 112. I used it with no alterations. In fact, the only thing I would change is the mutliclassing rules. I'd have it be class A's defense bonus + class B's defense bonus / 2 Remember that spells like mage armor wouuld be givign DR 2/- as well. I like it for swashbuckling games and the like, where the flavor doesnt really mesh well with everyone in full plates (or mithral breastplates)
Oneiros 10-27-06, 01:53 PM	Reading through UA I think I really like the proposed idea of a Defence bonus apart from armor bonus. But would it work combined with the Armor as damage reduction rule as well? Two words for ya: Iron Heroes. In that d20 product, characters get a defense bonus, and armor gives variable DR. DR is essentially a die roll with a max value equal to the armor's bonus in the core rules. So Full Plate (+8 Armor, normally) gives 1d8 DR. Shields add to your defense bonus. A magical bonus on armor adds a flat modifier to the DR: +2 plate mail has DR 1d8+2. As for a penalty to characters that don't threaten an area (unarmed or armed with a ranged weapon), I don't think it's neccessary. With a weapon, you mainly rely on your parries and blocks for defense; without such a weapon, you're simply dodging and ducking more, but the end result is the same mechanically. If you're doing both, well, that's what the fighting defensively and full-defense actions represent. A penalty for being non-proficient in a weapon seems like a good idea, though it'll probably rarely come up in play. I'd also suggest a non-proficieny defense penalty for armor, as well. You make yourself easier to hit, hoping the DR of that uncomfortable armor makes up for it.
Pellanor 10-27-06, 02:33 PM	Two words for ya: Iron Heroes. In that d20 product, characters get a defense bonus, and armor gives variable DR. DR is essentially a die roll with a max value equal to the armor's bonus in the core rules. So Full Plate (+8 Armor, normally) gives 1d8 DR.So you would have DR 1d5/- for a breastplate? or DR 1d7/- for half plate? Where does one find these dice? I know you can get speciality d5, or just use FLOOR(1d10/2), but what about the d7? (edit: Advancing Hordes (http://www.advancinghordes.com/) has d14, and an out of stock d7.) Also, how are magical enchantments handled? Would +5 Full plate give DR 13/- or DR 1d8+5/-? The one complaint I've always had about using Armour as DR is that the Breastplate would be exactly the same as Scale Mail. This seems to solve that problem, if you have the weird dice for doing so, and don't mind the extra die roll involved with every successful attack.
Oneiros 10-27-06, 02:58 PM	So you would have DR 1d5/- for a breastplate? or DR 1d7/- for half plate? Where does one find these dice? I know you can get speciality d5, or just use FLOOR(1d10/2), but what about the d7? (edit: Advancing Hordes (http://www.advancinghordes.com/) has d14, and an out of stock d7.) Yes, some armors have odd max values, but I'd say just use the next higher real die, and ignore max values (either re-roll, or read it as a slightly above average roll of dX/2). Also, how are magical enchantments handled? Would +5 Full plate give DR 13/- or DR 1d8+5/-? Mentioned in my first post, but it would be the latter: DR 1d8+5/-. Essentially, it means magic weapon bonuses and magic armor bonuses would cancel each other out on a plus per plus basis. The one complaint I've always had about using Armour as DR is that the Breastplate would be exactly the same as Scale Mail. This seems to solve that problem, if you have the weird dice for doing so, and don't mind the extra die roll involved with every successful attack. One nice thing is it's the defender rolling on the attack, giving him something to do other than just mark off hit points. Plus the player gets to feel like he's actively contributing to his own defense. One thing I should mention: in Iron Heroes, creatures without class levels don't get a Defense bonus, and natural armor doesn't provide DR, it functions as normal, adding to AC.
Pellanor 10-27-06, 04:23 PM	Mentioned in my first post, but it would be the latter: DR 1d8+5/-. Essentially, it means magic weapon bonuses and magic armor bonuses would cancel each other out on a plus per plus basis.I could have sworn you said Shield last time, not magical bonus. Are you sure you didn't edit it on me? One nice thing is it's the defender rolling on the attack, giving him something to do other than just mark off hit points. Plus the player gets to feel like he's actively contributing to his own defense.True. I've been looking at the Players roll the Dice variant for just this reason.