Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crowind 04-08-05, 01:39 AM	I'd like to solicit the opinion of the board. I'm thinking about using the Defense Bonus and Armor as DR rules from the Unearthed Arcana, with the following changes of my own: * Making Armor provide no AC bonus whatsoever, and upping the DR it provides a little bit (1 or 2 points). * Characters who wear armor do not get their Class Defense Bonus. * Monsters get a defense bonus based on what BAB progression (so, a monster with cleric BAB progression would get a Defense Bonus like a cleric would, based on HD). This is instead of the wierd modified natural armor rule they have. * Monsters get Natural Armor coverted into DR, just like the book says but at a slightly higher exchange (divide by 4 instead of 5). What do you guys think? Crazy? What are the implications? Ideally, I'd like a situation where characters are choosing between being the guy who get's pummeled a lot, but soaks damage like a tank, or the guy who is nimble and avoids getting hit altogther
Crowind 04-08-05, 02:04 AM	I think I just realized this prob means you wouldn't never want to wear anything but the best armor. If you're a mid-level rogue why wear leather armor at all? Maybe the armor should keep it's armor bonus.
Korimyr the Rat 04-08-05, 04:48 AM	If Armor is pure DR, characters should keep their Class Defense Bonus while wearing it.
BrainMole 04-08-05, 03:55 PM	I thought same thing. I decided that all AC goes to DR. Class defence as normal but when wearing a armor, the character gets half his Class defence into his AC. Makes things little bit more balanced.
Nor'Morgwae 04-08-05, 07:44 PM	I tried something similar to this in my game and it did not work, not at all. The average party AC went through the roof becaus is was mostly casters and rogue types who did not wear much armor any way. The warrior in the group kept getting mauled because he ended up with an AC of 14 or something at 6th level. The DR of the armor just wasn't enough to make up for the low AC. Plus this system makes armor useless agains big creatures. The damage output is so much above the DR of the armor that it makes very little difference wereas the other characters have a high AC and so they are just not getting hit. We had to scrap it in reletivly short order. I haven't tried it allowing armored characters to keep their class AC bonues. That might work...
Crashy75 04-08-05, 09:06 PM	I've been playing around with an idea for quite some time now. First thing though, i have to say i don't agree with giving a defense bonus based upon the starting armor prof's of each class. I like the idea of giving better defense bonuses based upon how 'defensive minded' said class is. Also, a +4 at first level is tooo much.... I like the revised star wars ratings. Now for armor. I like giving a penalty to defense based upon the armor your wearing. Havn't really pinned a specific rating but it should generally scale up the more protective/heavy the armor is. -1 for leather for ex. Perhaps -1 for each point of DR? I don't know really... again i'm playing with it.
ClothedUpon 04-08-05, 09:57 PM	Ideally, I'd like a situation where characters are choosing between being the guy who get's pummeled a lot, but soaks damage like a tank, or the guy who is nimble and avoids getting hit altogther Crowind, Sounds like a worthy goal, but I think you're going to run into problems. I've tried similar things and encountered problems. * Making Armor provide no AC bonus whatsoever, and upping the DR it provides a little bit (1 or 2 points). Sounds good at first, but... I tried almost the same thing in my game and it nearly ended the campaign. All the characters were getting hit almost every time. As they were low level and brand new 1st level characters, they couldn't afford good armor. So, the damage reduction didn't help them that much. When you've only got a few hit points, a couple points of damage still hurts. I actually upped the DR to equal the armor bonus it would've provided. I also applied DR for natural armor for monsters on a point for point basis. It was horrible. Many weapons were rendered almost entirely useless. Basically any weapon or attack that caused less than 6 points max damage became worthless. After we played, I kept thing about how a dagger should be able to hurt someone in full plate even though 1d4 wasn't enough to get past the damage reduction. Then, I was reading a book and a guy in chain got bit by a small snake that couldn've caused maybe 1 point of damage (definitely not enough to get past the DR of chain), yet it still hurt him. Basically, I came to the conclusion that upping the DR of armor would ultimately necessitate a reworking of weapon and monster damages across the whole system. Too much work for me. :confused: * Characters who wear armor do not get their Class Defense Bonus. Did this one, too. It resulted in a lot of hits with little or no damage after DR was factored in. Fights were long. Over an hour on average. Everything had problems hurting anything. The longest battle was a group of seven 1st level characters accompanied by 12 1st level npc warriors that were attacked by 4 1st level warrior orcs and 3 first level barbarian orcs with higher than normal strength for an orc and composite bows to match. The bows proved to be quite dominating with the extra strength damage they could factor in. The fact that armor didn't provide an AC bonus almost ensured that these orcs hit 3 out of five times they shot. * Monsters get a defense bonus based on what BAB progression (so, a monster with cleric BAB progression would get a Defense Bonus like a cleric would, based on HD). This is instead of the wierd modified natural armor rule they have. Yeah, sounds good, but there will be problems. Some creature types just don't fit with the defense bonus progression that would match up with their type. Take a look at the creature types in the back of the Monster Manual and check their BAB's and see what that does to their defense bonuses and see if it matches up with your idea of how well they should improve at defending themselves. Are oozes quick or slow in your world? What about undead? Fey? Dragons? Animals? Constructs? Going strictly off the BAB makes most creatures defend themselves the same even when there would likely be a world of difference. * Monsters get Natural Armor coverted into DR, just like the book says but at a slightly higher exchange (divide by 4 instead of 5). This might work OK. I'm experimenting with a variant on it, myself. Though increasing monster damage reduction makes them harder to kill and makes many weapons ineffective that might otherwise be used. What do you guys think? Crazy? What are the implications? I think that unless you want to put in a lot of work and thought that it would be best to use the Class Defense and Armor as Damage Reduction as written in Unearthed Arcana. If you're willing to put in a lot of time and effort, it can be worth it. I've spent about two months thinking through and experimenting with changes. If you're familiar with Monte Cooke's Malhavoc Press (http://www.montecook.com), one of his writers is coming out with a book called Iron Lore (http://www.ironlore.com) that I'm told will have a variable damage reduction system for armor. From what I've read online, basically whenever a character gets hit, they roll a die type depending on the armor worn and subtract it from the damage that they take. I think you could come up with a system like that on your own, too. The positive side of this idea is that you don't know for sure that your chain shirt is going to catch the blow just right to absorb all that damage. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. It could just catch part of it. To use an idea from Unearthed Arcana, if you were to implement variable damage reduction for armor, you could use the table from page 132 to determine what dice to roll to see how much the damage was reduced when a character got hit. (I'm looking at the table on the top left of the page.) For example, if the armor normally provided 2 points of DR, that would be a roll of 1d4 to see how much damage the armor would absorb. If it were DR 4 it would be 1d8. DR 10 would be 1d20 (some really incredible armor, eh?). My next question would be why take away all the class defense bonus from characters when they wear armor? In my thinking, some armors would hinder dodging ability more than others. Why not allow some armors to allow partial benefit from class defense and others all of the bonus? (Of course, natural armor wouldn't likely hamper a creatures defense bonus much as it's grown accustomed to it's skin.) :D Also, there's should probably be a reason that characters take armor proficency feats. It should make them better at using the armor they wear if they're proficient with it. Hence, in my mind, someone proficient with armor should still be able to in some way benefit from their class defense bonus (maybe not to the full extent as being unarmored...). Also, what effect would being flat-footed have on the ability of characters to optimize the DR benefit of their armor? Should a flat-footed character be easier to hurt (and therefore the DR be easier to bybass) than a character who is actively defending themselves? After all, armor requires a feat to use properly for a reason. To me, being flat-footed means that you'd be less likely to apply the armor to it's optimum benefit. Should the flat-footed defender take a penalty to the amount of damage the armor can reduce? I've almost finalized my house rules (in my head, anyways) and have experimented with a some variations of the things that you write about. In my mind, armor as DR and class defense bonuses shoouldn't be optional rules. The problem is agreeing on how to implement them and then hoping that the agreed upon method doesn't break the game. Upping DR from what's listed in UA changes the game a lot. Eliminating AC bonus from armor and not having class defense while wearing armor practically guarantees that the character taking this option will be hit quite often. Not getting hit is always better than getting hit a lot and hoping that the damage isn't high enough to hurt. If I had a 20th level fighter with the Class Defense provided in UA and lost it by putting on any sort of armor, I wouldn't wear armor at all. I think the extra 60% to my chance of being missed would outweigh any damage reduction that armor could provide at that level. As written in UA, though, class defense could work well with armor on the basis of taking the higher bonus. Why throw out the armor bonus to AC completely or even at all? Why not give an armor bonus or class defense bonus (whichever is better) and still have some form of DR? Oh well... I've written too much already (for now). Hope this helps...
ClothedUpon 04-08-05, 10:23 PM	Hi, Crashy75, I just read your post and thought I'd comment... I've been playing around with an idea for quite some time now. First thing though, i have to say i don't agree with giving a defense bonus based upon the starting armor prof's of each class. I like the idea of giving better defense bonuses based upon how 'defensive minded' said class is. Also, a +4 at first level is tooo much.... I like the revised star wars ratings. What about the +6 for clerics, fighters, and paladins at first level! It's better than wearing most armors even if they do provide DR. Needless to say, I had to revise these bonuses. They were just too good. The ones I cam up with were patterned after saving throws. Good defense progressed like a good saving throw (+2 to +12). Poor defense like a poor save (+0 to +6) and a fair defense that is about half-way between. Only three categories instead of four. As for classes... I moved monk from the low class defense to the high end (knowing full well that this would stack with the monk's defensive capabilities and liking it because I wanted to reward my players for playing a monk since it's almost never been played). I also moved two others up to the good defense class and moved all three that were in the good class in UA to the fair class (I felt that there was a reason that clerics, fighters, and paladins wore such heavy armor... perhaps, they were so focused on offense that they needed armor to make up for imperfections in their defensive capabilities?). I left sorcerers and wizards in the poor defense class. Now for armor. I like giving a penalty to defense based upon the armor your wearing. Havn't really pinned a specific rating but it should generally scale up the more protective/heavy the armor is. -1 for leather for ex. Perhaps -1 for each point of DR? I don't know really... again i'm playing with it. I'm implementing something like this, too. Though I haven't ironed it out, yet, either. I'm thinking that armor proficiency should mean something and that if you can get better at using weapons (through feats), you should be able to get better at using armor, too (through feats). Still working on this, though. Even toying with the idea that strength should in some way factor in to how much armor might penalize AC. After all, if strength benefits you on the hitting and hurting, why couldn't it effect how well you could deal with the encumberance of the armor that you were wearing while defending yourself?
Korimyr the Rat 04-09-05, 08:25 PM	Another thing I strongly recommend is not using the variant as presented in Unearthed Arcana. Specifically, do not grant Class Defense based on Armor Proficiencies-- focus on the class's agility and fighting ability. In my games, I use Poor, Medium, and Good Class Defense, at the same rate as saving throws.
ClothedUpon 04-10-05, 12:14 AM	Hi, Korimyr the Rat. Just looking over two of your posts in this thread. If Armor is pure DR, characters should keep their Class Defense Bonus while wearing it.I agree. Without some form of defense bonus if armor doesn't make you harder to hit, wearing armor is not really a good option. Better to not get hit than to get hit repeatedly for smaller amounts of damage. The best option would be to get better at defense while being able to wear armor (which makes sense to me) so that if you slip up on defense your armor absorbs some or all of the damage. Another thing I strongly recommend is not using the variant as presented in Unearthed Arcana. Specifically, do not grant Class Defense based on Armor Proficiencies-- focus on the class's agility and fighting ability.I agree, here, too. In my games, I use Poor, Medium, and Good Class Defense, at the same rate as saving throws.1.What classes from the Player's Handbook did you asign to good, fair, and poor defense progressions? 2. Did you asign defense bonuses to monster types? How about damage reduction? 3. Did you use the amount that UA asigns to each type of armor as DR? 4. Have you had any trouble with weapons becoming ineffective as a result of damage reduction (to the point that no one ever uses them)?
Korimyr the Rat 04-10-05, 02:01 AM	1.What classes from the Player's Handbook did you asign to good, fair, and poor defense progressions? Classes with Good Reflex saves and the Fighter got Good Class Defense. Paladins, Barbarians, and Druids have Medium Class Defense. Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerors have Poor Class Defense. Standard rule is, arcane casters and divine casters with Heavy Armor Profiency get Poor. Martial Classes and divine casters with poor armor selection get Medium. Classes with good Reflex saves and classes with Fighter bonus feats get Good Defense. 2. Did you asign defense bonuses to monster types? How about damage reduction? Monsters get Poor Defense, unless they advance by character class-- in that case, they combine their HD with their Favored Class and use that. (I use Gestalt rules, and Monster HD can be combined. LA is reduced, and is pure LA.) 3. Did you use the amount that UA asigns to each type of armor as DR? Close. I add +1 to Medium Armors and +3 to Heavy Armors. I allow characters with natural armor to keep more of their natural armor than UA recommends, but it doesn't stack with armor. 4. Have you had any trouble with weapons becoming ineffective as a result of damage reduction (to the point that no one ever uses them)? I had a dagger-fighter that noticed he was completely useless. To fix it, I gave a handful of weapons a special quality that allows them to ignore half of an armor (or creature's) armor or natural armor DR. Characters wielding Light weapons (or ranged weapons) can take a -4 to to hit to ignore armor, but not natural armor.
Robbo 04-10-05, 06:23 AM	re. dagger fighters becoming useless - I would have thought that someone wielding a dagger against someone else with a larger weapon wearing full plate armour SHOULD be "useless", if he stands toe to toe. A normal dagger just would not penetrate plates of steel. He'd have a chance perhaps to target the few vulnerable areas where the plate harness cannot provide 100% cover, ie. underarms, but I would interpret that as his chance of getting a critical hit... in such circumstances, I would encourage him to try to grapple or trip the armour wearer, pin him, and use his dagger/knife against him. In these circumstances I would rule that it is possible to work the knife into joints between plates to cause full damage without DR. There are solutions, of which the above is one, but if it was me, I would want to use a military pick, a halberd, or a maul against plate! Then only revert to a weapon like a dagger to finish off an opponent I had rendered helpless. (As inspiration, try watching an Ultimate Fighting Championship program and you will see that the big hitters will generally prefer to stand at arms length and box, whereas against that type of fighter others will try to grapple quickly, take him down, pin him, and do damage at VERY close range) I don't use class based defence at all because I use the Vitality / Wound point system, and the variable VP by class is the equivalent. However I do see the problem of creatures that deal large amounts of damage - if they hit more often it will outweigh the DR that normal armour can provide. I guess combat effectiveness etc become more important, but I am wondering whether just to increase the bonus to AC provided by dexterity?
ClothedUpon 04-10-05, 07:12 PM	Classes with Good Reflex saves and the Fighter got Good Class Defense. Paladins, Barbarians, and Druids have Medium Class Defense. Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerors have Poor Class Defense. Standard rule is, arcane casters and divine casters with Heavy Armor Profiency get Poor. Martial Classes and divine casters with poor armor selection get Medium. Classes with good Reflex saves and classes with Fighter bonus feats get Good Defense.Thanks. It seems there's a wide range of ways to assign defense progressions. For my campaign I used a combination of reflex save quality, BAB progression, and hit die type to determine which classes got which of the 3 defense progressions. This put monks, barbarians, and rangers on top. Sorcerers and wizards on bottom. All the other Player's Handbook classes got the fair progression. Monsters get Poor Defense, unless they advance by character class-- in that case, they combine their HD with their Favored Class and use that. (I use Gestalt rules, and Monster HD can be combined. LA is reduced, and is pure LA.)I used the same process to assign monster type base defense bonuses. Some got good progressions. Some poor. The majority were medium progrssions. However, they did not keep their natural armor bonuses to AC. I converted it partially to a modified form of damage reduction that was about double what UA recommended and dropped the left over AC bonus from natual armor as the hit die based defense bonus progression replaced it. Close. I add +1 to Medium Armors and +3 to Heavy Armors. I allow characters with natural armor to keep more of their natural armor than UA recommends, but it doesn't stack with armor.That's interesting. I hadn't really considered whether or not damage reduction from natural armor might stack with regular armor. I'll need to give this some thought before my campaign gets too much farther along. I had a dagger-fighter that noticed he was completely useless. To fix it, I gave a handful of weapons a special quality that allows them to ignore half of an armor (or creature's) armor or natural armor DR. Characters wielding Light weapons (or ranged weapons) can take a -4 to to hit to ignore armor, but not natural armor.That's an interesting idea. I handled this problem a little differently. At first, I wanted to give a damage bonus to each character or creature that was a function of their BAB progression. However, that just made the DR less and less effective as they progressed to higher levels. Instead, I used the attack roll in the solution. Basically, I wanted the precision of the hit to be a factor, so the better the attack roll in relation to the touch armor class, the more damage reduction from armor and natural armor (not other types of damage reduction) that could be ignored. In other words, characters with higher BAB's were better at targeting the weaknesses in armor and natural armor. A high enough attack roll total might completely bypass the damage reduction provided by armor or natural armor. I'm still giving some thought as to how this factors into confirming critical threats as critical hits, though. At first I was using the touch AC as the number needed to confirm a critical, though I probably won't continue that option. Instead, confirming a critical will likely require that the confirmation roll still be enough to hit if as if the creatures armor or natural armor still worked as an armor class bonus (in other words, the confirmation roll would need to be the same as it would according to the SRD). Has anyone else given thought to how to determine the confirmation of criticals when using armor and natural armor as damage reduction instead of as part of armor class?
Korimyr the Rat 04-10-05, 07:41 PM	Has anyone else given thought to how to determine the confirmation of criticals when using armor and natural armor as damage reduction instead of as part of armor class? I leave it alone-- part of getting a critical hit is finding a vulnerability, and since the qualities that can improve your criticals (skill and weapon hardness/sharpness) would help you bypass armor, it just makes sense. Armor still applies to critical hits, but you're far more likely to put more damage through on a critical than on a normal hit. He'd have a chance perhaps to target the few vulnerable areas where the plate harness cannot provide 100% cover, ie. underarms, but I would interpret that as his chance of getting a critical hit... Problem is, when you get the good Heavy Armors, even a high-Strength dagger critical won't be enough to put even a single point through. There were types of daggers designed for armor-- stilettos in particular, and katar. If you put some force behind them, they will punch a hole straight through an iron plate, which is why I allow them to bypass half of the armor's DR. Combine that with a skilled wielder with the Improved Critical feat (and the Massive Critical feat I use in my games-- increases crit. multiplier by 1), and you get a dagger fighter who can be effective against an armored knight. Of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to just use a Morningstar.
Grigori 04-11-05, 11:38 AM	There were types of daggers designed for armor-- stilettos in particular, and katar. If you put some force behind them, they will punch a hole straight through an iron plate, Through Plate? No. You'll more likely break the stilleto or have it skitter off the plate. Through chainmail? Yes. That's what it's designed to do, punch through and spread the links. A Stilleto is still effective against plate in that it can be jammed through the weak point in armor, slipped through the joints, or other small openings to maim and/or hinder your opponent. The problem is getting close enough to do so, which usually relied on surprise. You're not going to run up against a fully armored knight wielding a sword and shield, or a greatsword and have too much of a chance with just a stilleto. However, if you catch him unaware, usually out of melee combat, you'll have a good chance. (Gladiator was a wonderful example of the effective use of a stilleto) Of course if they really wanted to make it 'accurate', then they should give piercing weapons the 'wounding' quality (especially if you pull out an embedded projectile), and have the characters bleed out from them. Of course the same rules that apply for critical strikes and sneak attacks would apply to that to, and then effectiveness is largely dependant on size, so a stilleto for a medium sized character would probably only be effective against small, medium, and possibly large creatures, anything else and it's just an annoying poke, but that's getting into more complicated rules than we need, so take it how you want. If you're using armor as DR, then a good rule is that piercine weapons halve the effectiveness of DR. A critical bypasses it. For all other weapons, treat DR as normal, a critical Halves it. Straight, simple, and to the point. (no pun intended) A good place to check for the whole armor/DR mechanic is: www.wakinglands.com
Crashy75 04-11-05, 04:05 PM	A quick thought. Perhaps crit's/sneak attacks could ignore DR? Though i'm not sure what to do regarding constructs/undead. Also, could overpower the rogue. Perhaps increase the sneak at 1/2 the rate and replace the empty spots with a bonus feat.
SaddestPleasure 04-11-05, 10:05 PM	Here's what I'm trying in my game. 1. Defense bonus based on BAB. I'm using a custom table that starts at +2 for 0 BAB, +3 at 1 BAB, rising by 1 every 2 points of BAB thereafter, topping out at +13 at 20 BAB. Basing it on BAB ensures that the warrior classes automatically have higher AC. It's also a fluid and natural system when multiclassing. (Unlike class defense based on armor proficiency.) This system makes the most sense to me -- those most trained/experienced in combat are also the most adept at avoiding damage. 2. Armor-based damage reduction and AC bonus. Armor provides BOTH an armor bonus to AC and DR. The DR values are roughly the same as in Unearthed Arcana. 3. Use the higher AC bonus of either defense bonus or armor/natural armor bonus. A character uses EITHER his defense bonus OR his armor bonus + his natural armor bonus, whichever is higher at the time. All other bonuses are added normally. (Obviously this lessens the usefulness of natural armor bonuses, though it works the same as usual for monsters.) 4. Slightly modified armor table. I finally reduced maximum Dexterity bonuses across the board. For most heavy armors (especially the cheapo ones like splint), I not only have a maximum Dex bonus of +0 but also assess a Dexterity penalty. Overall this means armor is very useful but not as necessary as in the standard game. This is something I like, because I think training in avoiding blows should count for as much as armor. (Maybe I've been watching too many martial arts movies.) The lowered max Dex bonuses and Dex penalties for heavy armors means characters will have to make a decision between DR and slightly lowered AC. Cheers, SaddestPleasure
Lillandra 04-14-05, 07:27 AM	I too had been thinking about this and the system I came up with was as follows: Defence bonus = to BAB (fighters etc just should be the best at manoevering in combat) Armour DR = basically equal to its AC bonus, so Full plate is DR 8 (or variable methods discussed above). Armour check penalty = halved (round down) is subtracted from AC, as cumbersome armour would make people more easy to hit. The only trouble is that this would make people much easier to hit but harder to damage, and is so far unplaytested.
Robbo 04-16-05, 10:22 AM	A cat amongst the pigeons...surely the increase in hit points, or Vitality Points, has the exact meaning that a character is increasingly difficult to "hit" i.e. deal significant damage to, as his/her level increases? In other words, a character with 100HP will be able to survive combat for a great deal longer than one with 10HP. If in addition to that you also increase AC, that is a double whammy - fine if that is what you want, but be aware that you are increasing the difference between high level and low level characters, which may mean that the range of reasonable challenges a DM can throw at a party of any given level may be less. I would be tempted to advocate using a defensive bonus with Wound points, but no HP or VP at all. Then you would genuinely be more difficult to hit as your experience increased, but any hit would be significant (kind of realistic?) Unfortunately I was brought up on the concept of rolling HP or VP each level, and so have to try to make that work! I agree to making some piercing weapons subject to only half the armour DR, and that a critical hit should ignore armour DR. I apply that to crossbows and arrows too. However I have trouble with determining when a critical should apply. To my mind, the better the armour worn, the less chance that someone will be able to strike that weak point etc, so the chance of a critical should decrease. For example, if you wear a chain shirt, your legs are vulnerable, not so if you wear a full plate harness. But if you make armour DR double that in the UA and no effect on AC, as a previous poster suggested (and as I do) then this doesn't happen. Has anyone taken this approach and made it work?
Sonn Athion 04-19-05, 07:45 PM	First, someone mentioned applied armor check penalty to AC.. IMO, this doesn't work because Shields have an amor check penalty equal to their AC bonus! and I don't believe it addresses the issue properly. Here's how I've been working on it; Armor and Defence bonuses stack. Defence bonuses are reduced by 2xDR bonus. (Over all this will create characters with slightly lower or equal AC as well as DR) This represents a character's ability to become more adept at avoiding blows as they gain level and the fact that armor doesn't make you magically forget how avoid blows.. though it does hinder you. (as well, armor itself helps avoid blows by deflecting them and absorbs damage) (The problem I see with this is Robbo's point. Currently "Defense bonus" is represented by HP/VP) You might want to keep track of how much damager armor absorbs as well.. if armor taking the damage instead of the character then the armor should show the wear.
Lillandra 04-20-05, 03:11 AM	good point about the shields, I suppose there are two options then: 1) no armour check penalty to defence 2) Shields provide DR too. Overall I think option 1 works best
trodaimionn 04-20-05, 04:01 AM	The way I have worked it in my campaign has worked very well... 1) AC based on BAB, because as you are trained in attacking you are also trained in defense. (There is not a single school of combat that does not do this.) BAB AC 1 1 2 2 3 2 4 3 5 3 6 4 7 4 8 5 9 5 10 6 11 6 12 7 13 7 14 8 15 8 16 9 17 9 18 10 19 10 20 11 2) Armor as AC and DR as per Unearthed Arcana, and it stacks with class bonuses due to the reduced AC value. This gives players a reason to spend the gold on armor. 3) I also use the Wound and Vitality point system with a few modifications. Weapons retain thier normal crit ranges but only do half thier crit damage, ie a longbow does 20/*1.5. I think this mantains the flavor of the weapons, it is a simpler change to adapt to, and it maintains the intent of the Vitality and Wound system. Do note that I run a low magic item game, where the BAB AC and armor as DR rules help offset the advantage certain monsters have at higher CR's due to the design expectation that the PC's are going to have magical armor or other items that help AC.
Sonn Athion 04-20-05, 01:18 PM	trodaimionn, I like those ideas.. Not sure if I like doing the Class defence on BAB or Ref Saves more... Hard Call
Dragonblade275 04-21-05, 11:15 PM	First, someone mentioned applied armor check penalty to AC.. IMO, this doesn't work because Shields have an amor check penalty equal to their AC bonus! and I don't believe it addresses the issue properly.I agree. I'm currently leaning toward only having armor making someone easier to hit if they do not have the proper armor proficiency feats. Strength might play a factor, too. But, this hasn't been play-tested. Armor and Defence bonuses stack. Defence bonuses are reduced by 2xDR bonus. (Over all this will create characters with slightly lower or equal AC as well as DR) This represents a character's ability to become more adept at avoiding blows as they gain level and the fact that armor doesn't make you magically forget how avoid blows.. though it does hinder you. (as well, armor itself helps avoid blows by deflecting them and absorbs damage)I don't know if I caught how this works, really. If I understand correctly, you're saying: Armor Bonus (from armor) plus Defense Bonus minus twice (armor-based) damage reduction equals Armor Class? If so, that would work if armor provided an armor bonus to AC. It won't for me, because I use armor as (variable) damage reduction only (armor subtracts an amount from the damage based on the quality of the attackers roll against the DC of hitting the defender (we use defensive rolls instead of static AC).). No bonus to AC for armor. In my world, armor doesn't help you avoid blows, but it does deflect and absorb some or all of the potential damage. (The problem I see with this is Robbo's point. Currently "Defense bonus" is represented by HP/VP)You are absolutely correct. This is a real problem. However, in the world where our characters adventure, healing magic is nigh unheard of (no clerics or divine spells). So, without some way of making hit points last longer, no one could survive long enough to be a hero (or a villain). You might want to keep track of how much damager armor absorbs as well.. if armor taking the damage instead of the character then the armor should show the wear.I agree. I haven't came up with a good system for this, yet. But since I'm thinking about it, now. I'll write what's coming to mind. Perhaps, armor types have hit die types based on the type of armor it is. Light armor has d4's. Medium armor has d8's. And, heavy armors have d12's. A suit of armor could have hit points equal to the rolled total of a number of the given type of hit dice times the damage reduction it provides. For example: In my world, a version of plate armor might provide DR 8. So, this heavy armor (d12) would have anywhere from 8 to 96 hit points (8d12, if rolled randomly). Each time the wearer was struck, the hit points of the armor would decrease by the amount of the damage reduction it provided on that blow (can vary as some blows might not cause a full 8 points). A suit of leather, on the other hand, (DR 2 in my world) would have anywhere from 2 to 8 hit points (2d4). Magic armor would have an additional die of hit points per point of bonus and provide increased potential DR, too, per point of bonus. +5 plate would provide the DR of plate plus 5. In my world with plate providing DR 8, +5 plate would provide DR 13 and have 13 to 156 hit points (13d12). Since, I'm writing this without thinking it through or testing it, there may be problems. Please, share your thoughts.
Gold Katana 04-22-05, 10:28 AM	My group is changing to an alternate hit point and AC system for our next campaign but we haven’t ironed out all the problems, yet. We plan to use WP/VP instead of HP. Armor & Natural Armor as DR only. And I love the Class Defense AC bonus based off your BAB mentioned by Trod above; (BAB+1)/2 (round up .5’s). Weapons will retain their current threat range. With a confirmed critical, the damage is straight (not multiplied) and damage goes directly to WP (just like in UA) but the same amount is also taken off VP’s. With a threat, but unconfirmed critical, the weapon’s current multiplier is used. Damage taken goes to VP’s only. Any amount that exceeds current VP’s is lost (they didn’t confirm the critical, after all). Critical damage bypasses DR from armor only. Thus, a werewolf’s DR/silver remains in place even with a critical hit, unless the weapon was silver, of course. Likewise, DR/magic wouldn't be bypassed with a crit, unless a magic weapon were used. On a critical, extra dice of damage (such as sneak attack) apply 1 hp of damage per D6, as suggested in UA. Using this system, Bracers of Armor (and other AC Bonus spells and items) should actually become Bracers of DR. I’m not sure if this is how we want to handle it and they will probably retain their traditional bonus to AC. Feedback is appreciated. :)
Sonn Athion 04-24-05, 04:11 PM	Dragonblade, I like your system for assigning the HP to armor.. gives a bit more realism when the PCs take some chainmail off a dead orc that's all beaten up instead of perfect condition as though they just purchased it. I've heard several people say that armor ONLY applies DR.. If this is effective I think I'll try it with my group. (I've been trying to give armor at least a bit of a bonus to AC because it does help deflect blows as well as absorb them) Gold Katana, you've definitly got all the situations covered when it comes to crits. If the group has a solid grasp of the rules I think that'd be an easy and effective variant to use. (oh, and I also like the idea of Bracers of armor only providing AC)
Dragonblade275 04-25-05, 06:00 PM	Dragonblade, I like your system for assigning the HP to armor.. gives a bit more realism when the PCs take some chainmail off a dead orc that's all beaten up instead of perfect condition as though they just purchased it. I've heard several people say that armor ONLY applies DR.. If this is effective I think I'll try it with my group. (I've been trying to give armor at least a bit of a bonus to AC because it does help deflect blows as well as absorb them)Thanks, Sonn Athion. We playtested it this weekend, though after talking it over with the most experienced player in my group, we decided to change the value of the HP (which we are calling armor points to avoid confusion) that the armor types had. Light armor had 8 armor points per point of AC that it provided (if it was new). Medium had 10. And, heavy armor had 12. It worked very well. Our session was a combat intesive dungeon crawl with 3 gestault characters (fighter/ranger, fighter/wizard, and a monk/wizard who was later traded for a barbarian/fighter). It was our first time using gestaults, too. Honestly, I didn't notice that much of a power difference. It just gave the small group a couple more options and usually bumped up each characters base defense bonus by one category. Suprisingly enough, even with the option of having armor providing damage reduction and giving it a healthy ability to absorb damage, only the fighter/ranger (studded leather) and the barbarian/fighter (plate) wore armor. The others relied primarily on dexterity and base defense bonus (though the fighter/wizard did cast mage armor once- which we counted as a deflection modifier rather than DR). It went pretty well. I even tested using some monsters with AC as listed in the monster manual rather than using house-ruled defense bonuses and DR and the creatures of appropriate CR still seemed balanced with the party of appropriate level. After having read that so many were using Wound Points & Vitality Points, we read over that section in UA and decided not to go with it, yet. Though it looks like a good future option. The one thing that I did notice is that I will have to make sure and make some conversion notes for creatures that I plan to use in each adventure that list their adjusted armor classes, armor points (if any) and DR's based on our house rules. I'm pretty good at converting on the fly, but I know that I'm likely to make mistakes without writing up some notes in advance. I definitely recommend that armor have armor points and that when it provides damage reduction that it lose some corresponding armor points. For armor that's found, unless I figure it up ahead of time, I just roll randomly to see how much it has left. Also, it makes enchanted armor that much more costly since you know it's going to wear out if you use it. The player I mentioned earlier said that he could see a wealthy character having a really nice set of armor for important battles that the character had time to prepare for and more average suit for general exploration and dungeon crawls due to the expense of maintaining armor. That brings me to the next point that I've thought of but haven't decided how to resolve. How easy/expensive is it to repair armor? Is it possible? What types of skill checks would be involved? How much would a professional armorer charge? Any thoughts?
Dragonblade275 04-25-05, 06:13 PM	I've heard several people say that armor ONLY applies DR.. If this is effective I think I'll try it with my group. (I've been trying to give armor at least a bit of a bonus to AC because it does help deflect blows as well as absorb them)Our group uses armor as striclty damage reduction and it works fine as long as characters are allowed to keep their class defense bonus while wearing armor. The armor does not need to hamper the characters AC's either. The MAX DEX that's already listed in the core rules already does that well enough even when allowing class defense and dexterity to stack. The only times I'd penalize someone for wearing armor by making them easier to hit would be if they had a strength penalty from a low strength score or if they were not proficient with the armor they were trying to wear. In the case of the low strength score, I wouldn't penalize characters wearing light armor. For medium armors, I'd use their negative strength mod as their AC penalty. For heavy armors, I'd use double their strength mod (if negative) as a penalty. In other words, some folks just aren't strong enough to make effective use of armor. Regarding armor as deflection, I agree with the idea that it probably does provide some outright deflection, but I haven't convinced my players of it, yet. However, the high armor points we assigned to each armor group in a way reflect that quality of armors anyway (just like hit points in the core rules are more than just a measure of the physical damage one can withstand).
Sonn Athion 04-26-05, 12:22 AM	I definitely recommend that armor have armor points and that when it provides damage reduction that it lose some corresponding armor points. Also, it makes enchanted armor that much more costly since you know it's going to wear out if you use it. Thats an awesome Point! Realistic and effective.. Logically I'll give magical armor greater AP based on the enhancement bonus.. but I love that idea! It means that players won't fall back on armor that has amazing DR because they know it'll be worn out and they'll have to get it fixed.. very cool.. That brings me to the next point that I've thought of but haven't decided how to resolve. How easy/expensive is it to repair armor? Is it possible? What types of skill checks would be involved? How much would a professional armorer charge? Any thoughts? This part could get a little complicated.. but its interesting because it means those players that take Craft: Armor as a skill will actually get to use it!! I would suggest you base the cost of the repair as an equal fraction to the damage dealt.. (maybe round off to the nearest 1/10 or something.. I dunno) For instance.. FullPlate costs 1,500 and has 96 AP (let me know if I got the AP wrong) So.. if it is down to 48 AP then it would cost 750GP to repair and maybe say it takes a day worth of repair for ever couple hundered GP or something Edit: I would also set the Craft:Armor DC based on the amount of AP being repaired
Sonn Athion 04-26-05, 12:49 AM	New plan! Alright.. something didn't sit well with me when it came to AP and Armor as DR So I'm adding a new element.. Armor will use a Hardness rating and have less AP that way a dagger can't take a 5 AP chunk out of Full Plate when I get this figured out I'll post it EDIT: Page 166 of the PHB Table 9-8 and 9-9 Armor has HP (or AP) equal to 5 x armor rating Metal armor has Hardness 10 Leather or Hide, Hardness 2 (has all the other hardness ratings as well)
Dragonblade275 04-30-05, 11:09 PM	Thats an awesome Point! Realistic and effective.. Logically I'll give magical armor greater AP based on the enhancement bonus.. but I love that idea! It means that players won't fall back on armor that has amazing DR because they know it'll be worn out and they'll have to get it fixed.. very cool..Thanks!This part could get a little complicated.. but its interesting because it means those players that take Craft: Armor as a skill will actually get to use it!!Exactly. My players would've never taken a craft skill before...I would suggest you base the cost of the repair as an equal fraction to the damage dealt.. (maybe round off to the nearest 1/10 or something.. I dunno) For instance.. FullPlate costs 1,500 and has 96 AP (let me know if I got the AP wrong) So.. if it is down to 48 AP then it would cost 750GP to repair and maybe say it takes a day worth of repair for ever couple hundered GP or something Edit: I would also set the Craft:Armor DC based on the amount of AP being repairedI'm still thinking about all this. My most experienced player and I were talking after the last session and we came up with quite a few things to work on. For instance, all the character sheets need to include a Flat-Footed Touch Armor Class. We hadn't thought to put it on any of them, before. There's some other things, too. Perhaps, sometime in the future I'll be able to post most or all of our houserules...
Dragonblade275 04-30-05, 11:19 PM	New plan!OK. Let's have it... Alright.. something didn't sit well with me when it came to AP and Armor as DR So I'm adding a new element.. Armor will use a Hardness rating and have less AP that way a dagger can't take a 5 AP chunk out of Full Plate when I get this figured out I'll post it EDIT: Page 166 of the PHB Table 9-8 and 9-9 Armor has HP (or AP) equal to 5 x armor rating Metal armor has Hardness 10 Leather or Hide, Hardness 2 (has all the other hardness ratings as well) Hmmm... I hadn't thought of this idea of using hardness in relation to armor. It was kind of built into the idea that heavier armors have a higher AP conversion per point of armor bonus that would normally be provided. For exampe, full plate gets 12 AP per point of armor bonus (96 AP) while chainmail only gets 10 AP per point (50 AP). Brining in hardness would almost seem to me to be the same as having the armor make you harder to hit as well as harder to hurt... If I were going to do this, I wouldn't use hardness. I'd just use the Armor as Damage Reduction system that Unearthed Arcana presents and add armor points to the armor for the reduced armor bonuses (full plate would have 48 AP instead of 96 and chainmail would have 30 AP instead of 50).
Paul Hopebringer 05-04-05, 08:05 PM	Why not have the armor proficiencies have an additional prerequisite: Strength. Just a suggestion, it might make things more logical. It would go well with the above mentioned stuff.
Dragonblade275 05-04-05, 08:56 PM	Why not have the armor proficiencies have an additional prerequisite: Strength. Just a suggestion, it might make things more logical. It would go well with the above mentioned stuff.That might be one way to solve it, Paul. Maybe STR 12 for medium armor and 14 for heavy?
HailSpork 05-05-05, 01:26 AM	I thought feat prereqs were always odd numbers...
JohnSnow 05-05-05, 02:19 PM	The posters on the Midnight fansite www.againsttheshadow.org have come up with a netbook that has armor degradation rules. Partially it's to enforce the nature of the setting. See, in Midnight, armor and weapons are hard to come by, so having them degrade suits the setting perfectly. That said, most armor damage can be easily repaired. I've always assumed, in a regular setting, that all fighters know how to make BASIC repairs to their armor, and do so in their downtime. Replacing some links in your chain mail, banging out a dent or two, reattaching a metal plate to the leather, etc. What the guys there have come up with is a method where armor degrades (-1 to AC, +1 check penalty) after the wearer is struck by a critical hit. They haven't said what it would do to the DR...It also includes rules for weapons degrading whenever a natural 1 is rolled.
Dragonblade275 05-05-05, 05:22 PM	I thought feat prereqs were always odd numbers...Maybe they are, but this could be an exception. After all, it'd be a house-rule anyway. Unless there is something in the SRD...?
Dragonblade275 05-05-05, 05:27 PM	The posters on the Midnight fansite www.againsttheshadow.org have come up with a netbook that has armor degradation rules. Partially it's to enforce the nature of the setting. See, in Midnight, armor and weapons are hard to come by, so having them degrade suits the setting perfectly.Thanks for the info. I appreciate it it.That said, most armor damage can be easily repaired. I've always assumed, in a regular setting, that all fighters know how to make BASIC repairs to their armor, and do so in their downtime. Replacing some links in your chain mail, banging out a dent or two, reattaching a metal plate to the leather, etc.I'd agree with that. Perhaps armor should only take damge to its 'armor points' on a critical hit?What the guys there have come up with is a method where armor degrades (-1 to AC, +1 check penalty) after the wearer is struck by a critical hit. They haven't said what it would do to the DR...It also includes rules for weapons degrading whenever a natural 1 is rolled.I like both these ideas. The weapon degradation is a really good idea. I'll probably start using it (and check out the info I can find on Midnight, too). In a house-ruled game where armor is only damage reduction, perhaps on a critical, the armor might lose one point of it's DR? Of course, some gamers might want to know if the armor were struck or not (further complicating things).