Defense bonus help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defense bonus help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stryfe_Raven
07-31-04, 05:30 AM It's late and I have been up for going on 27 hours straight so please excuse any spelling mistakes, thanks.

Let me just say fisrt I'm working on a Eberron type campaign and want to use defense bonus to help represent the swashbuckling feel of the setting. The problem is the System presented in UA is well broken to say the least (think about it a wizard takesone level of fighter and ends up with a Defense bonus of 12 at level 20 ).
Does any one have a better system or what are some system you use. Also please note it does not have to compleatly replace armor just give them a little more protection when out of it.
Nan Lung
07-31-04, 07:22 AM I recall a while back that someone suggested using 2/3 of the BAB. Works well, I believe.
Stryfe_Raven
07-31-04, 01:55 PM How does this sound to people Defense bonus is equal to your Base attack bonus time .4 (BaB * .4 = defense bonus)

Here's how it would play out

Level BaB (full) Defense
1 1 0
2 2 0
3 3 1
4 4 1
5 5 2
6 6 2
7 7 2
8 8 3
9 9 3
10 10 4
11 11 4
12 12 4
13 13 5
14 14 5
15 15 6
16 16 6
17 17 6
18 18 7
19 19 7
20 20 8

Level BaB (3/4) Defense
1 0 0
2 1 0
3 2 0
4 3 1
5 3 1
6 4 1
7 5 2
8 6 2
9 6 2
10 7 2
11 8 3
12 9 3
13 9 3
14 10 4
15 11 4
16 12 4
17 12 5
18 13 5
19 14 5
20 15 6

Level BaB (1/2) Defense
1 0 0
2 1 0
3 1 0
4 2 0
5 2 0
6 3 1
7 3 1
8 4 1
9 4 1
10 5 2
11 5 2
12 6 2
13 6 2
14 7 2
15 7 2
16 8 3
17 8 3
18 9 3
19 9 3
20 10 4

I'm also thinking about awarding a +1 defense bonus at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 that would bring these numbers almost in line with Unearthed arcana but at the same time correct it's problems.

What do you think ? Speak out please I need your input as your far more experanced at this then me
[list=1]
Level BaB (full) Defense
[/list=1]
Stryfe_Raven
07-31-04, 02:02 PM oops double post sorry
Kapawww!!
08-04-04, 08:06 PM For a future campaign, I was thinking of involving the Defense Bonus, but with a slight alteration: Instead of the A, B, C, and D columns based off of class, apply the bonus instead to they type of Armor being worn (the Armor bonus from the Armor and the Armor bonus from the 'Defense Bonus Variant' do not stack*).

*: Characters in lower levels might choose the armor bonus from the armor thet they are wearing at first, and in later levels use the armor bonus that the 'Defense Bonus Variant' gives.

Example:

When wearing no armor, the character applies the Column A bonus to AC.

When wearing light armor, the character applies the Column B bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

When wearing medium armor, the character applies the Column C bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

When wearing heavy armor, the character applies the Column D bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

This makes it so that a 20th level fighter wearing heavy armor gets a +12 armor bonus, but a 20th level fighter wearing no armor only gets a +8 armor bonus.
Ranger REG
08-05-04, 03:48 AM Originally posted by Stryfe_Raven

It's late and I have been up for going on 27 hours straight so please excuse any spelling mistakes, thanks.

Let me just say fisrt I'm working on a Eberron type campaign and want to use defense bonus to help represent the swashbuckling feel of the setting. The problem is the System presented in UA is well broken to say the least (think about it a wizard takesone level of fighter and ends up with a Defense bonus of 12 at level 20 ).
Hmm. Prior to taking a level in fighter, doesn't a 19th-level wizard have a CDB of +8? A +4 jump isn't that big a deal at higher level, is it?

Does any one have a better system or what are some system you use. Also please note it does not have to compleatly replace armor just give them a little more protection when out of it.
I could offer an alternative, but I don't think it is better. In Star Wars, when multiclassing character classes, you subtract 2 from the new class's CDB and then add the remaining value to the current CDB.

But using the numbers in UA, I still get the same result:

+8 + (+6 - 2) = +12

How about halving the new class's CDB?

OR, for every new class acquired, add +1 to your first class's CDB?
Mind Rogue
08-06-04, 04:16 PM One could always open up d20 modern. They use the class AC bonus there, and it stacks with armor (I think). The trick would be matching the DnD classes up with the d20 modern classes, and that d20 modern only goes up to 10th level base classes.
Largegnome
08-06-04, 04:48 PM However, both the systems used in SW and those used in d20 modern can be easily abused, unless you forbid multiclassing. Also, I agree with Ranger Reg. Losing a caster level to get +4 ac at 20th level isn't a big deal, and doing it earlier would just delay your spell progression. If a player of mine did that, I' d be fine with it: he would lose more than he gets.
Ellanon
08-06-04, 05:01 PM Originally posted by Kapawww!!
For a future campaign, I was thinking of involving the Defense Bonus, but with a slight alteration: Instead of the A, B, C, and D columns based off of class, apply the bonus instead to they type of Armor being worn (the Armor bonus from the Armor and the Armor bonus from the 'Defense Bonus Variant' do not stack*).

*: Characters in lower levels might choose the armor bonus from the armor thet they are wearing at first, and in later levels use the armor bonus that the 'Defense Bonus Variant' gives.

Example:

When wearing no armor, the character applies the Column A bonus to AC.

When wearing light armor, the character applies the Column B bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

When wearing medium armor, the character applies the Column C bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

When wearing heavy armor, the character applies the Column D bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater).

This makes it so that a 20th level fighter wearing heavy armor gets a +12 armor bonus, but a 20th level fighter wearing no armor only gets a +8 armor bonus.

In the UA it is already based off of what armor type you are proficient in, not the class. Note that the first column is for all classes that get no armor proficiency. The last column is for those classes that are proificient in heavy armors. I would take that a step farther and say that it also represents those classes that have more training in those areas.

There is also an optional rule that states the Defense bonus and armor bonus do not stack. The only way to get the Defense bonus is to go unarmored. Or, sacrifice the Defense bonus and put armor on. In my game there is heavy incentive to wear armor. We also use the option of Armor rating being halved and the other half representing DR. Full plate is a +4 to AC and a DR 4/-. Is the DR important enough to sacrifice a higher AC? Using both systems really works well for my games.

Even if a Wizard took one level in fighter, it has been noted that it would only be a +4. Consider as well that wizard just received specific training on avoiding blows, wearing armor, using martial weapons and tactics. I think that would warrant a better Defense as the Wizard now knows how to efficiently avoid blows as compared to his original hap-hazard, figure-it-out-as-I-go, untrained way of going it.
Ranger REG
08-07-04, 03:05 AM Originally posted by Ellanon

There is also an optional rule that states the Defense bonus and armor bonus do not stack. The only way to get the Defense bonus is to go unarmored. Or, sacrifice the Defense bonus and put armor on. In my game there is heavy incentive to wear armor. We also use the option of Armor rating being halved and the other half representing DR. Full plate is a +4 to AC and a DR 4/-. Is the DR important enough to sacrifice a higher AC? Using both systems really works well for my games.
Use the house rule where you use either Class Defense Bonus or armor bonus, whichever is better, for Defense (AC). IOW, the bonuses overlaps. And you waive the "armor override CDB" rule component. Again, whichever is better.

Armor's DR (using the stats in UA) still apply. So's the Max Dex bonus, ACP, ASF, speed restriction, etc.

That way, armor is not totally and completely useless.
Ellanon
08-07-04, 03:37 AM Armor isn't useless anyway. DR, any DR, can be very helpful especially at lower levels.
Glak
08-07-04, 08:14 PM Making a good defense bonus system is really easy. Just give every class a Base Defense Bonus progression in the same way that you would have a Base Attack bonus. Come up with a couple of progressions, assign them how you see fit and bam you're done. Then make armor stack, or make an armor as DR variant. Character with good BDB bonus progressions (Fighter, Rogue) might not even want to wear armor if they have skills that would be hindered by armor check penalties. Afterall, because of a high BDB they never get hit.

In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR. So I give out BDB in the 1/1 3/4 and 1/2 progressions, to keep pace with BAB.

1/1: Figher, Rogue, Ranger, Monk
3/4: Paladin, Bard, Barbarian
1/2: Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid
Stryfe_Raven
08-07-04, 11:07 PM Originally posted by Glak
Making a good defense bonus system is really easy. Just give every class a Base Defense Bonus progression in the same way that you would have a Base Attack bonus. Come up with a couple of progressions, assign them how you see fit and bam you're done. Then make armor stack, or make an armor as DR variant. Character with good BDB bonus progressions (Fighter, Rogue) might not even want to wear armor if they have skills that would be hindered by armor check penalties. Afterall, because of a high BDB they never get hit.

In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR. So I give out BDB in the 1/1 3/4 and 1/2 progressions, to keep pace with BAB.

1/1: Figher, Rogue, Ranger, Monk
3/4: Paladin, Bard, Barbarian
1/2: Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid

Thats similar to my current think on a defense progression. Heres how it would work.

All characters get +1 to defense at level 5 and ever five levels after (10, 15 and 20), when in no armor or armor with no armor check penalty. Characters could then take feats to improve there defense progression, there would be 3 such feats each giving a +2 to defense (maximum of +6). Armor in this system would use the DR varation from UA. The characters would ether use there feats to improve there defense bonus or learn to use armor effectively (they could do both but it would be kind of wasteful).
Ellanon
08-08-04, 03:33 AM Originally posted by Glak
In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR.

How much DR does it get? Equivalent to its former AC bonus? If so, how do you handle the monsters?
Glak
08-08-04, 06:10 AM Well, I've changed a lot of other stuff in my campaign so you can't copy my system straight over. For example characters in my camapaign deal less damage so I have the DR values a lot lower. In a more normal campaign I would go with something about equal to the AC, half of it being DR and the other half damage conversion.

For monsters there are three approaches that you can use, starting with easiest and ending with best:

Use the monster from the MM with no changes. Not ideal but usable.

Take the monster from the MM and convert some of its AC into DR.

Give each monster type a BDB and make a little table that gives you guidelines for natural armor. For example hard shells give so much damage reduction on average. Also for every two sizes of increase double the values. Then take the monster and remove its natural armor value and replace it with BDB and some DC/DR. A lot of monsters really have screwy values for natural armor so that the designers could get the value that they wanted. I mean a hawk has +2. I never knew that feathers were so tough. The risk is that you might change the CR a little. So just add or subtract 1.

I'm actually almost done with a little $2 pdf that I plan on selling on rpgnow.com on this topic, I mostly just want to run it through final testing and make it look a little prettier.
Eclipse Lutgehr
08-08-04, 10:24 AM I use the defense bonus variant in all of the games I run, which is currently three, and I've had no true problems with it so far.. However, I put a twist to the rule. Only 1/2 of the defense bonus counts vs. touch attacks, and it is negated if you are caught flat footed (more incentive to wear armor, besides my other variant rule below). Uncanny dodge does not grant the defense bonus when you're caught flat footed, but Improved Uncanny Dodge does restore it to half stength. As well, armor does provide a DR of a sort. The AC bonus from the armor converts that many points of damage from every Physical attack into nonlethal damage (if you're dealt nonlethal damage normally, this DR does not protect against it). I use the DR table on the next page after the defense bonus system (don't have the book on me so I'm not sure of the page number) for natural armors and nonlethal damage conversion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stryfe_Raven 07-31-04, 05:30 AM	It's late and I have been up for going on 27 hours straight so please excuse any spelling mistakes, thanks. Let me just say fisrt I'm working on a Eberron type campaign and want to use defense bonus to help represent the swashbuckling feel of the setting. The problem is the System presented in UA is well broken to say the least (think about it a wizard takesone level of fighter and ends up with a Defense bonus of 12 at level 20 ). Does any one have a better system or what are some system you use. Also please note it does not have to compleatly replace armor just give them a little more protection when out of it.
Nan Lung 07-31-04, 07:22 AM	I recall a while back that someone suggested using 2/3 of the BAB. Works well, I believe.
Stryfe_Raven 07-31-04, 01:55 PM	How does this sound to people Defense bonus is equal to your Base attack bonus time .4 (BaB * .4 = defense bonus) Here's how it would play out Level BaB (full) Defense 1 1 0 2 2 0 3 3 1 4 4 1 5 5 2 6 6 2 7 7 2 8 8 3 9 9 3 10 10 4 11 11 4 12 12 4 13 13 5 14 14 5 15 15 6 16 16 6 17 17 6 18 18 7 19 19 7 20 20 8 Level BaB (3/4) Defense 1 0 0 2 1 0 3 2 0 4 3 1 5 3 1 6 4 1 7 5 2 8 6 2 9 6 2 10 7 2 11 8 3 12 9 3 13 9 3 14 10 4 15 11 4 16 12 4 17 12 5 18 13 5 19 14 5 20 15 6 Level BaB (1/2) Defense 1 0 0 2 1 0 3 1 0 4 2 0 5 2 0 6 3 1 7 3 1 8 4 1 9 4 1 10 5 2 11 5 2 12 6 2 13 6 2 14 7 2 15 7 2 16 8 3 17 8 3 18 9 3 19 9 3 20 10 4 I'm also thinking about awarding a +1 defense bonus at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 that would bring these numbers almost in line with Unearthed arcana but at the same time correct it's problems. What do you think ? Speak out please I need your input as your far more experanced at this then me [list=1] Level BaB (full) Defense [/list=1]
Stryfe_Raven 07-31-04, 02:02 PM	oops double post sorry
Kapawww!! 08-04-04, 08:06 PM	For a future campaign, I was thinking of involving the Defense Bonus, but with a slight alteration: Instead of the A, B, C, and D columns based off of class, apply the bonus instead to they type of Armor being worn (the Armor bonus from the Armor and the Armor bonus from the 'Defense Bonus Variant' do not stack). : Characters in lower levels might choose the armor bonus from the armor thet they are wearing at first, and in later levels use the armor bonus that the 'Defense Bonus Variant' gives. Example: When wearing no armor, the character applies the Column A bonus to AC. When wearing light armor, the character applies the Column B bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). When wearing medium armor, the character applies the Column C bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). When wearing heavy armor, the character applies the Column D bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). This makes it so that a 20th level fighter wearing heavy armor gets a +12 armor bonus, but a 20th level fighter wearing no armor only gets a +8 armor bonus.
Ranger REG 08-05-04, 03:48 AM	Originally posted by Stryfe_Raven It's late and I have been up for going on 27 hours straight so please excuse any spelling mistakes, thanks. Let me just say fisrt I'm working on a Eberron type campaign and want to use defense bonus to help represent the swashbuckling feel of the setting. The problem is the System presented in UA is well broken to say the least (think about it a wizard takesone level of fighter and ends up with a Defense bonus of 12 at level 20 ). Hmm. Prior to taking a level in fighter, doesn't a 19th-level wizard have a CDB of +8? A +4 jump isn't that big a deal at higher level, is it? Does any one have a better system or what are some system you use. Also please note it does not have to compleatly replace armor just give them a little more protection when out of it. I could offer an alternative, but I don't think it is better. In Star Wars, when multiclassing character classes, you subtract 2 from the new class's CDB and then add the remaining value to the current CDB. But using the numbers in UA, I still get the same result: +8 + (+6 - 2) = +12 How about halving the new class's CDB? OR, for every new class acquired, add +1 to your first class's CDB?
Mind Rogue 08-06-04, 04:16 PM	One could always open up d20 modern. They use the class AC bonus there, and it stacks with armor (I think). The trick would be matching the DnD classes up with the d20 modern classes, and that d20 modern only goes up to 10th level base classes.
Largegnome 08-06-04, 04:48 PM	However, both the systems used in SW and those used in d20 modern can be easily abused, unless you forbid multiclassing. Also, I agree with Ranger Reg. Losing a caster level to get +4 ac at 20th level isn't a big deal, and doing it earlier would just delay your spell progression. If a player of mine did that, I' d be fine with it: he would lose more than he gets.
Ellanon 08-06-04, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by Kapawww!! For a future campaign, I was thinking of involving the Defense Bonus, but with a slight alteration: Instead of the A, B, C, and D columns based off of class, apply the bonus instead to they type of Armor being worn (the Armor bonus from the Armor and the Armor bonus from the 'Defense Bonus Variant' do not stack). : Characters in lower levels might choose the armor bonus from the armor thet they are wearing at first, and in later levels use the armor bonus that the 'Defense Bonus Variant' gives. Example: When wearing no armor, the character applies the Column A bonus to AC. When wearing light armor, the character applies the Column B bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). When wearing medium armor, the character applies the Column C bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). When wearing heavy armor, the character applies the Column D bonus to AC, or the Armor bonus that the Armor that is being worn gives (whichever is greater). This makes it so that a 20th level fighter wearing heavy armor gets a +12 armor bonus, but a 20th level fighter wearing no armor only gets a +8 armor bonus. In the UA it is already based off of what armor type you are proficient in, not the class. Note that the first column is for all classes that get no armor proficiency. The last column is for those classes that are proificient in heavy armors. I would take that a step farther and say that it also represents those classes that have more training in those areas. There is also an optional rule that states the Defense bonus and armor bonus do not stack. The only way to get the Defense bonus is to go unarmored. Or, sacrifice the Defense bonus and put armor on. In my game there is heavy incentive to wear armor. We also use the option of Armor rating being halved and the other half representing DR. Full plate is a +4 to AC and a DR 4/-. Is the DR important enough to sacrifice a higher AC? Using both systems really works well for my games. Even if a Wizard took one level in fighter, it has been noted that it would only be a +4. Consider as well that wizard just received specific training on avoiding blows, wearing armor, using martial weapons and tactics. I think that would warrant a better Defense as the Wizard now knows how to efficiently avoid blows as compared to his original hap-hazard, figure-it-out-as-I-go, untrained way of going it.
Ranger REG 08-07-04, 03:05 AM	Originally posted by Ellanon There is also an optional rule that states the Defense bonus and armor bonus do not stack. The only way to get the Defense bonus is to go unarmored. Or, sacrifice the Defense bonus and put armor on. In my game there is heavy incentive to wear armor. We also use the option of Armor rating being halved and the other half representing DR. Full plate is a +4 to AC and a DR 4/-. Is the DR important enough to sacrifice a higher AC? Using both systems really works well for my games. Use the house rule where you use either Class Defense Bonus or armor bonus, whichever is better, for Defense (AC). IOW, the bonuses overlaps. And you waive the "armor override CDB" rule component. Again, whichever is better. Armor's DR (using the stats in UA) still apply. So's the Max Dex bonus, ACP, ASF, speed restriction, etc. That way, armor is not totally and completely useless.
Ellanon 08-07-04, 03:37 AM	Armor isn't useless anyway. DR, any DR, can be very helpful especially at lower levels.
Glak 08-07-04, 08:14 PM	Making a good defense bonus system is really easy. Just give every class a Base Defense Bonus progression in the same way that you would have a Base Attack bonus. Come up with a couple of progressions, assign them how you see fit and bam you're done. Then make armor stack, or make an armor as DR variant. Character with good BDB bonus progressions (Fighter, Rogue) might not even want to wear armor if they have skills that would be hindered by armor check penalties. Afterall, because of a high BDB they never get hit. In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR. So I give out BDB in the 1/1 3/4 and 1/2 progressions, to keep pace with BAB. 1/1: Figher, Rogue, Ranger, Monk 3/4: Paladin, Bard, Barbarian 1/2: Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid
Stryfe_Raven 08-07-04, 11:07 PM	Originally posted by Glak Making a good defense bonus system is really easy. Just give every class a Base Defense Bonus progression in the same way that you would have a Base Attack bonus. Come up with a couple of progressions, assign them how you see fit and bam you're done. Then make armor stack, or make an armor as DR variant. Character with good BDB bonus progressions (Fighter, Rogue) might not even want to wear armor if they have skills that would be hindered by armor check penalties. Afterall, because of a high BDB they never get hit. In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR. So I give out BDB in the 1/1 3/4 and 1/2 progressions, to keep pace with BAB. 1/1: Figher, Rogue, Ranger, Monk 3/4: Paladin, Bard, Barbarian 1/2: Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid Thats similar to my current think on a defense progression. Heres how it would work. All characters get +1 to defense at level 5 and ever five levels after (10, 15 and 20), when in no armor or armor with no armor check penalty. Characters could then take feats to improve there defense progression, there would be 3 such feats each giving a +2 to defense (maximum of +6). Armor in this system would use the DR varation from UA. The characters would ether use there feats to improve there defense bonus or learn to use armor effectively (they could do both but it would be kind of wasteful).
Ellanon 08-08-04, 03:33 AM	Originally posted by Glak In my campaign armor does not provide a defense bonus, only a form of DR. How much DR does it get? Equivalent to its former AC bonus? If so, how do you handle the monsters?
Glak 08-08-04, 06:10 AM	Well, I've changed a lot of other stuff in my campaign so you can't copy my system straight over. For example characters in my camapaign deal less damage so I have the DR values a lot lower. In a more normal campaign I would go with something about equal to the AC, half of it being DR and the other half damage conversion. For monsters there are three approaches that you can use, starting with easiest and ending with best: Use the monster from the MM with no changes. Not ideal but usable. Take the monster from the MM and convert some of its AC into DR. Give each monster type a BDB and make a little table that gives you guidelines for natural armor. For example hard shells give so much damage reduction on average. Also for every two sizes of increase double the values. Then take the monster and remove its natural armor value and replace it with BDB and some DC/DR. A lot of monsters really have screwy values for natural armor so that the designers could get the value that they wanted. I mean a hawk has +2. I never knew that feathers were so tough. The risk is that you might change the CR a little. So just add or subtract 1. I'm actually almost done with a little $2 pdf that I plan on selling on rpgnow.com on this topic, I mostly just want to run it through final testing and make it look a little prettier.
Eclipse Lutgehr 08-08-04, 10:24 AM	I use the defense bonus variant in all of the games I run, which is currently three, and I've had no true problems with it so far.. However, I put a twist to the rule. Only 1/2 of the defense bonus counts vs. touch attacks, and it is negated if you are caught flat footed (more incentive to wear armor, besides my other variant rule below). Uncanny dodge does not grant the defense bonus when you're caught flat footed, but Improved Uncanny Dodge does restore it to half stength. As well, armor does provide a DR of a sort. The AC bonus from the armor converts that many points of damage from every Physical attack into nonlethal damage (if you're dealt nonlethal damage normally, this DR does not protect against it). I use the DR table on the next page after the defense bonus system (don't have the book on me so I'm not sure of the page number) for natural armors and nonlethal damage conversion.