Defense Bonus... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defense Bonus... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
theotherdraxen
10-05-06, 10:36 PM I took one look at the defense bonus, and immediately found it to be over-balanced and too frustrating with the multi-classing for better AC. So I thought about it, looked at some posted variants, and here's the system I wish to use.

The price for magical AC bonuses doubles. This should effectively cut in half the normal AC bonuses that character get through magical equipment. Characters now all have a Base Defense Bonus equal to 1/2 their Base Attack Bonus.

Does this sound both balanced and cool?
Wayside
10-05-06, 11:05 PM Actually it has some problems. Doubling the cost of magic enhancements doesn't seem like that great of a balance. The increase in enhancement cost doesn't outway the huge benefit from the defensive bonus. A 10th level fighter in full plate would have the equivalent AC bonus of +5 fullplate without magically enhancing it at all.
theotherdraxen
10-06-06, 04:42 PM What if I kept the costs as normal and limited AC bonuses to Shields, while I use the Armor as DR variant, and limit those bonuses to improving the DR?

A +1 to attack and damage for a weapon costs 2,000 gp.

A +1 to AC costs 1,000 and a +1 to DR costs 1,000. Thus, it costs 2,000 gp to deflect a +1 enhancement to a weapon.

Strength adds to attack and damage. The attack of strength is opposed by dexterity, and the damage is opposed by constitution (sort of).

BAB is opposed by BDB, which is 1/2 the BAB. Does this work out about right?
Wayside
10-06-06, 05:59 PM By incorporating the armor as DR variant it does balance it out more. It will pull character's armor class' back down to a more appropriate level. It will still give characters more AC than they would normally have at higher levels, but its not that major of a difference until they get up into higher levels. One thing you need to consider is Monsters though. Do they get a defensive bonus? or perhaps their bonus is only equal to 1/4 base attack rather than one half. Or you could just rule that only player characters get a defensive bonus, or that only base attack gained through class levels applies to the defensive bonus.
theotherdraxen
10-06-06, 07:25 PM Well, generally, most of the enemies I use are humanoids with class levels, but I think I'll take your advice. Monsters just get 1/4 BAB in BDB.

I'm not allowing Armor to add to AC anymore. Only shields do that. Armor provides DR only, and the DR is equal to 1/2 it's normal AC bonus.
Lina_Inverse
10-06-06, 10:18 PM [QUOTE=theotherdraxen]Well, generally, most of the enemies I use are humanoids with class levels, but I think I'll take your advice. Monsters just get 1/4 BAB in BDB.[q/uote]

*stab*
Class leveled npcs are vastly too simple for your players to deal with. Most NPCs wont have the hp to absorb even a single full attack.

Theres a reason Mobs have such incredible defenses.
theotherdraxen
10-06-06, 10:54 PM *stab*
Class leveled npcs are vastly too simple for your players to deal with. Most NPCs wont have the hp to absorb even a single full attack.

Theres a reason Mobs have such incredible defenses.
:confused:
How is a Human Paladin of Freedom 6/Wild Plains Outrider 3 too weak for the party? I use PC classes for them:D!
Lina_Inverse
10-07-06, 02:59 AM :confused:
How is a Human Paladin of Freedom 6/Wild Plains Outrider 3 too weak for the party? I use PC classes for them:D!

A rogue at level 9 full attacks for an average of 70 damage.
A level 9 14con fighter type averages..............70 hp.
PC classes dont have the defenses to survive a single round from eachother. Hence the defenses on monster.
FeceMan
10-07-06, 03:22 AM I took one look at the defense bonus, and immediately found it to be over-balanced and too frustrating with the multi-classing for better AC. So I thought about it, looked at some posted variants, and here's the system I wish to use.

The price for magical AC bonuses doubles. This should effectively cut in half the normal AC bonuses that character get through magical equipment. Characters now all have a Base Defense Bonus equal to 1/2 their Base Attack Bonus.

Does this sound both balanced and cool?
The AC bonuses from classes don't stack.
theotherdraxen
10-07-06, 10:34 AM A rogue at level 9 full attacks for an average of 70 damage.
A level 9 14con fighter type averages..............70 hp.
PC classes dont have the defenses to survive a single round from eachother. Hence the defenses on monster.
I just had to do out the math. The average fighter type with 14 con averages 72 hp (don't mind the semantics), and the rogue deals 36 sneak attack damage plus weapon damage: with no more than 36,000 gp total gear value, the rogue couldn't have more than a +3 bonus on a single weapon, and that's best in the form of 2d6 damage, plus 1d6 for the weapon itself, for a grand total of 54 damage (massive damage! A 9th level fighter has a good chance of taking this and living, but not so good). Sure, the fighter is almost down, but not out, and once he turns on the rogue and lays his own beat down on him, well, this 14 con rogue's 52 hit points won't hold out against the fighters full attack with his own +3 weapon.
Plus, what's this fighter doing without a +1 suit of full plate at 9th level? That suit could deflect at least the second blow, effecively cutting the above damage in half. 27 damage up against 72 hp?
Of course, if the rogue gets lucky, he could bring the fighter down in a single blow. If his weapons do 2d10 on a critical, and he's got a rapier with Improved Critical, then he has a good chance (25% chance, with Telling blow, he'll have the most devastating critical) of deal 7d6+2d10, for a total of...72 hp damage!
:OMG!

A 25% chance of killing a fighter in a single blow...I'll say that's just the glory of rogues. What's the fighter's response? Fortification is his only salvation.
theotherdraxen
10-07-06, 10:44 AM The AC bonuses from classes don't stack.
I'm not using the class defense bonus system, it didn't suit my campaign. Instead, this is a Base Defense Bonus, which stacks to AC the same way BAB stacks to the attack roll.

It's lower than the normal class defense bonus (the highest available to anyone is a 10, the average at level 20 is a 7, and wizards will get a 5). I was looking for a way to reduce the protective value of armor and shields to match this and keep the game balanced.
Lina_Inverse
10-07-06, 01:22 PM I just had to do out the math. The average fighter type with 14 con averages 72 hp (don't mind the semantics), and the rogue deals 36 sneak attack damage plus weapon damage: with no more than 36,000 gp total gear value, the rogue couldn't have more than a +3 bonus on a single weapon, and that's best in the form of 2d6 damage, plus 1d6 for the weapon itself, for a grand total of 54 damage (massive damage! A 9th level fighter has a good chance of taking this and living, but not so good). Sure, the fighter is almost down, but not out, and once he turns on the rogue and lays his own beat down on him, well, this 14 con rogue's 52 hit points won't hold out against the fighters full attack with his own +3 weapon.
Plus, what's this fighter doing without a +1 suit of full plate at 9th level? That suit could deflect at least the second blow, effecively cutting the above damage in half. 27 damage up against 72 hp?
Of course, if the rogue gets lucky, he could bring the fighter down in a single blow. If his weapons do 2d10 on a critical, and he's got a rapier with Improved Critical, then he has a good chance (25% chance, with Telling blow, he'll have the most devastating critical) of deal 7d6+2d10, for a total of...72 hp damage!
:OMG!

A 25% chance of killing a fighter in a single blow...I'll say that's just the glory of rogues. What's the fighter's response? Fortification is his only salvation.

Your forgetting something.
All rogues have dual wield. All of them.

A level 9 rogue gets 4 sneak attacks per round. His chances of one shotting an equal level charecter are much much higher. In addition, rogues generally want to-hit bonuses from equipment not more d6s. Try grabbing a +2 weapon and a 22dex.
theotherdraxen
10-07-06, 05:21 PM Your forgetting something.
All rogues have dual wield. All of them.

A level 9 rogue gets 4 sneak attacks per round. His chances of one shotting an equal level charecter are much much higher. In addition, rogues generally want to-hit bonuses from equipment not more d6s. Try grabbing a +2 weapon and a 22dex.
First off, this is an unbalanced encounter. How is the rogue getting a 22 dex when the fighter only has a 14 con? Assuming the elite array, the best a rogue can start with is a 17 dex, and can could improve it to a max of 19 by 9th level. If he has any magical enhancements to his dex, then at his level, he won't have a powerful magic weapon to go with it.

Second, duel wielding would only make it worse. A -2 to all attack rolls only assures that our fighter would never be hit by those second attacks. In the end, the rogue could manage over 50 damage, but not enough to fell the fighter in a single blow.

Where did you get a balanced 9th level rogue with a 22 dex and a +2 magic weapon?

BTW: I forgot in my last post that, since the damage was done over two attacks, it didn't force a massive damage save. So even duel wielding, that rogue doesn't provoke massive damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theotherdraxen 10-05-06, 10:36 PM	I took one look at the defense bonus, and immediately found it to be over-balanced and too frustrating with the multi-classing for better AC. So I thought about it, looked at some posted variants, and here's the system I wish to use. The price for magical AC bonuses doubles. This should effectively cut in half the normal AC bonuses that character get through magical equipment. Characters now all have a Base Defense Bonus equal to 1/2 their Base Attack Bonus. Does this sound both balanced and cool?
Wayside 10-05-06, 11:05 PM	Actually it has some problems. Doubling the cost of magic enhancements doesn't seem like that great of a balance. The increase in enhancement cost doesn't outway the huge benefit from the defensive bonus. A 10th level fighter in full plate would have the equivalent AC bonus of +5 fullplate without magically enhancing it at all.
theotherdraxen 10-06-06, 04:42 PM	What if I kept the costs as normal and limited AC bonuses to Shields, while I use the Armor as DR variant, and limit those bonuses to improving the DR? A +1 to attack and damage for a weapon costs 2,000 gp. A +1 to AC costs 1,000 and a +1 to DR costs 1,000. Thus, it costs 2,000 gp to deflect a +1 enhancement to a weapon. Strength adds to attack and damage. The attack of strength is opposed by dexterity, and the damage is opposed by constitution (sort of). BAB is opposed by BDB, which is 1/2 the BAB. Does this work out about right?
Wayside 10-06-06, 05:59 PM	By incorporating the armor as DR variant it does balance it out more. It will pull character's armor class' back down to a more appropriate level. It will still give characters more AC than they would normally have at higher levels, but its not that major of a difference until they get up into higher levels. One thing you need to consider is Monsters though. Do they get a defensive bonus? or perhaps their bonus is only equal to 1/4 base attack rather than one half. Or you could just rule that only player characters get a defensive bonus, or that only base attack gained through class levels applies to the defensive bonus.
theotherdraxen 10-06-06, 07:25 PM	Well, generally, most of the enemies I use are humanoids with class levels, but I think I'll take your advice. Monsters just get 1/4 BAB in BDB. I'm not allowing Armor to add to AC anymore. Only shields do that. Armor provides DR only, and the DR is equal to 1/2 it's normal AC bonus.
Lina_Inverse 10-06-06, 10:18 PM	[QUOTE=theotherdraxen]Well, generally, most of the enemies I use are humanoids with class levels, but I think I'll take your advice. Monsters just get 1/4 BAB in BDB.[q/uote] stab Class leveled npcs are vastly too simple for your players to deal with. Most NPCs wont have the hp to absorb even a single full attack. Theres a reason Mobs have such incredible defenses.
theotherdraxen 10-06-06, 10:54 PM	stab Class leveled npcs are vastly too simple for your players to deal with. Most NPCs wont have the hp to absorb even a single full attack. Theres a reason Mobs have such incredible defenses. :confused: How is a Human Paladin of Freedom 6/Wild Plains Outrider 3 too weak for the party? I use PC classes for them:D!
Lina_Inverse 10-07-06, 02:59 AM	:confused: How is a Human Paladin of Freedom 6/Wild Plains Outrider 3 too weak for the party? I use PC classes for them:D! A rogue at level 9 full attacks for an average of 70 damage. A level 9 14con fighter type averages..............70 hp. PC classes dont have the defenses to survive a single round from eachother. Hence the defenses on monster.
FeceMan 10-07-06, 03:22 AM	I took one look at the defense bonus, and immediately found it to be over-balanced and too frustrating with the multi-classing for better AC. So I thought about it, looked at some posted variants, and here's the system I wish to use. The price for magical AC bonuses doubles. This should effectively cut in half the normal AC bonuses that character get through magical equipment. Characters now all have a Base Defense Bonus equal to 1/2 their Base Attack Bonus. Does this sound both balanced and cool? The AC bonuses from classes don't stack.
theotherdraxen 10-07-06, 10:34 AM	A rogue at level 9 full attacks for an average of 70 damage. A level 9 14con fighter type averages..............70 hp. PC classes dont have the defenses to survive a single round from eachother. Hence the defenses on monster. I just had to do out the math. The average fighter type with 14 con averages 72 hp (don't mind the semantics), and the rogue deals 36 sneak attack damage plus weapon damage: with no more than 36,000 gp total gear value, the rogue couldn't have more than a +3 bonus on a single weapon, and that's best in the form of 2d6 damage, plus 1d6 for the weapon itself, for a grand total of 54 damage (massive damage! A 9th level fighter has a good chance of taking this and living, but not so good). Sure, the fighter is almost down, but not out, and once he turns on the rogue and lays his own beat down on him, well, this 14 con rogue's 52 hit points won't hold out against the fighters full attack with his own +3 weapon. Plus, what's this fighter doing without a +1 suit of full plate at 9th level? That suit could deflect at least the second blow, effecively cutting the above damage in half. 27 damage up against 72 hp? Of course, if the rogue gets lucky, he could bring the fighter down in a single blow. If his weapons do 2d10 on a critical, and he's got a rapier with Improved Critical, then he has a good chance (25% chance, with Telling blow, he'll have the most devastating critical) of deal 7d6+2d10, for a total of...72 hp damage! :OMG! A 25% chance of killing a fighter in a single blow...I'll say that's just the glory of rogues. What's the fighter's response? Fortification is his only salvation.
theotherdraxen 10-07-06, 10:44 AM	The AC bonuses from classes don't stack. I'm not using the class defense bonus system, it didn't suit my campaign. Instead, this is a Base Defense Bonus, which stacks to AC the same way BAB stacks to the attack roll. It's lower than the normal class defense bonus (the highest available to anyone is a 10, the average at level 20 is a 7, and wizards will get a 5). I was looking for a way to reduce the protective value of armor and shields to match this and keep the game balanced.
Lina_Inverse 10-07-06, 01:22 PM	I just had to do out the math. The average fighter type with 14 con averages 72 hp (don't mind the semantics), and the rogue deals 36 sneak attack damage plus weapon damage: with no more than 36,000 gp total gear value, the rogue couldn't have more than a +3 bonus on a single weapon, and that's best in the form of 2d6 damage, plus 1d6 for the weapon itself, for a grand total of 54 damage (massive damage! A 9th level fighter has a good chance of taking this and living, but not so good). Sure, the fighter is almost down, but not out, and once he turns on the rogue and lays his own beat down on him, well, this 14 con rogue's 52 hit points won't hold out against the fighters full attack with his own +3 weapon. Plus, what's this fighter doing without a +1 suit of full plate at 9th level? That suit could deflect at least the second blow, effecively cutting the above damage in half. 27 damage up against 72 hp? Of course, if the rogue gets lucky, he could bring the fighter down in a single blow. If his weapons do 2d10 on a critical, and he's got a rapier with Improved Critical, then he has a good chance (25% chance, with Telling blow, he'll have the most devastating critical) of deal 7d6+2d10, for a total of...72 hp damage! :OMG! A 25% chance of killing a fighter in a single blow...I'll say that's just the glory of rogues. What's the fighter's response? Fortification is his only salvation. Your forgetting something. All rogues have dual wield. All of them. A level 9 rogue gets 4 sneak attacks per round. His chances of one shotting an equal level charecter are much much higher. In addition, rogues generally want to-hit bonuses from equipment not more d6s. Try grabbing a +2 weapon and a 22dex.
theotherdraxen 10-07-06, 05:21 PM	Your forgetting something. All rogues have dual wield. All of them. A level 9 rogue gets 4 sneak attacks per round. His chances of one shotting an equal level charecter are much much higher. In addition, rogues generally want to-hit bonuses from equipment not more d6s. Try grabbing a +2 weapon and a 22dex. First off, this is an unbalanced encounter. How is the rogue getting a 22 dex when the fighter only has a 14 con? Assuming the elite array, the best a rogue can start with is a 17 dex, and can could improve it to a max of 19 by 9th level. If he has any magical enhancements to his dex, then at his level, he won't have a powerful magic weapon to go with it. Second, duel wielding would only make it worse. A -2 to all attack rolls only assures that our fighter would never be hit by those second attacks. In the end, the rogue could manage over 50 damage, but not enough to fell the fighter in a single blow. Where did you get a balanced 9th level rogue with a 22 dex and a +2 magic weapon? BTW: I forgot in my last post that, since the damage was done over two attacks, it didn't force a massive damage save. So even duel wielding, that rogue doesn't provoke massive damage.