Defense Value and Damage Reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defense Value and Damage Reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dastari
05-29-06, 07:46 PM I've been reading in Unearthed Arcana about Defense Value for classes and Damage Reduction for armor. I really like the idea of both but in the book its really set up as two different ideas. They have a sidebar trying to combine the two but one variant is to powerful (basically giving you the best of both worlds) and the other just seems skewed wrong. Plus I have a basic problem with how they've set up the defense values.

What I would like to see is someone set out to create a system that combines both of these rules. In such a system the DV progression for each class would be much slower because you're also going to acquire damage reduction from your armor. You still take the better value between your class Defense Value and the AC of the armor but with the armor providing much lower AC bonuses you're defense value will probably almost always help. Armor will still impede your total AC for the purposes of adding your Dex modifier to your total AC. I also don't think that if you multiclass that you ought to take whatever value is better between the two classes. For instance, in the rules as stated in Unearthed Arcana simply taking one Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric level will put you in the fast Defense Value progression as ruled by your total character level. I'd rather see a DV that stacks much like base attack bonuses stack now so that if you multiclass you just add the first level DV of your new class to your total DV.

Has anyone ever tried something like that? If so, how did you lay it out for the various classes?
jagggar
05-29-06, 09:18 PM I've got progressions based on the average of BAB and Ref of the class here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9033592&postcount=67) (thanks to Tenzhi for that idea). Most values end up higher than the UA version, but they don't start nearly as high. But is 4/- really that signifigant at higher levels?
Jerks
06-01-06, 03:42 AM I too thought that the foundation of the ideals in UA were sound, but the actual values and execution of it were off. My campaign uses a class defense bonus and splits armor value between DR and AC. Here are the rules

THE CLASS DEFENSE BONUS
Each PC class character has a defense bonus based on his character level. A character wearing armor gains its armor bonus (including enhancements to that bonus) in addition to his defense bonus. The defense bonus stacks with all other bonuses to AC, including the character’s shield bonus, natural armor bonus and so forth.

Class defense bonus equals one-half of a character’s class derived base attack bonus. Base attack bonus from racial Hit Die and NPC classes does not provide any class defense bonus.

One-half of a character’s class defense bonus is applied to a character’s AC versus touch attacks (round-up) and one-half of a character’s class defense bonus is applied to a character’s flat-footed AC (round-down).

ARMOR DEFENSE BONUS
When worn by a proficient user, armor adds an armor defense bonus to a character’s armor class. This number is relatively small (in comparison to published numbers), but stacks with a character’s class defense bonus. The whole of this armor bonus is added to a character’s flat-footed AC, but armor is wholly ineffective versus touch attacks (as in standard rules), and is not figured versus a character’s touch AC. Characters not proficient in an armor gain no AC bonus from it.

ARMOR DAMAGE REDUCTION
All armor helps to reduce the damage from serious blows. This damage reduction is type DR/-. It does not stack with other types of DR, but freely stacks with the same type of DR (such as a Barbarian’s class DR).

I'll give some examples from the armor table

Padded.....AC +0....DR 1/-
Leather.... AC +1....DR 1/-
Chainshirt..AC +1....DR 3/-
Hide.........AC +2....DR 2/-
Chainmail..AC +2....DR 4/-
Splint.......AC +3....DR 4/-
Full Plate...AC +4....DR 6/-

Finally, there is a limit to how much class bonus you can benefit from when wearing armor. You maximum class bonus to defense cannot exceed either the max bonus to AC or the armor bonus to AC (whichever is greater) of the armor.

So far this has worked for us, and I've used it in two different systems. In a hit point system, the DR is bypassed on a crit. Using Vitality/wounds, we ruled that the DR only kicks in when taking wound damage and thus is not bypassed on a crit. Instead it's designed to save you life when you take a crit.
Khementari
06-01-06, 01:43 PM Pick up Iron Heroes for more help on that issue. Use class defense bonus and DR from armor. The big difference is that armor does not give a static DR it give you a die to roll. Suddenly platemail is something like 1d8 DR. It still offers great protection and at the same time doesn't render weapons like a dagger useless.
Cheza
06-01-06, 02:27 PM The simpliest way would be to add the BAB to any creatures AC value and transfer the armor bonus to damage reduction.

I use this rule with some restrictions:
- Anybody has two weapon fighting and you can ready single attack actions instead of just a standard actions.

So if you really want to block or dodge an incoming blow, you'll have to use an unused attack. This is treated as an off-hand attack and functions like an AoO. So attack+block is an opposed attack roll. You can take 10 on this defensive roll.

Example:
Block = BAB + Shield-size modifier + Strength/Dexterity - off-hand malus
(any size mod = ± 4 bonus for each size category)

You can't however use more block actions than you have attacks unused :teach:
Any other attack made against you rolls against the normal AC value. Any bonuses from armor is transfered 100% to damage reduction value.

Result:
You have a defensive rating only a well-defined number of times per round. So it won't be a permanently unbeatable bonus to your AC. However any creature should have a "aim" feat, which means that he can take a malus to his chance to hit to ignore enemy damage reduction.

Example:
Lidda knows that her dagger won't deal enough damage to pierce a full plate. So she decides to aim at this tiny vulnerable spot she had noticed. Unfortunately this increases the chance of her opponent to deflect her blow well enough so that she will miss this spot. She rolls her attack. Her enemy chooses to block her blow. He rolls for dexterity and adds his BAB and a +4 size modifier for the shield, but gets a malus for an off-hand action. Since he is the only one who knows the exact armor bonus for his full plate, he gets an bonus to his block-roll (insead of a malus for Lidda), Cause Lidda tries to bypass his armor it should be quite simple... To simplify this, he can choose to take 10.

Lidda has a weapon in her off hand, so she repeats the process. Her enemy doesn't have an unused action (he already attacked this turn (and blocked with his off-hand)), so he can't choose to block "deliberately". So either Lidda rolls against the normal AC (includes bypassing the full plate) or ignore the armor rating, what means that her enemy has a damage reduction of 8 (=AC of a full plate).

You should have noticed, that "aim" is more or less like "power attack" in regard of damage reduction. By reducing your chance to hit, you'll do more damage, which will negate an equal amount of damage reduction from armor. (only with one handed weapons). So lyou could use both: power attack (strength based) and aim (dexterity based).
_____________________________

You should change feats to fit into this rule. dodge as a feat should give a single "dodge" action a bonus instead of a general +1 bonus vs. 1 enemy. Feats like bypassing shield, etc. will be more effective and deflect arrows should be treated like an unarmed "block" against a ranged attack.
Zyrusticae
06-07-06, 09:47 AM I've been considering options for this as well.

One idea that I've run through is doing it the way the SW RPG does it - when you add another class, you add the defense bonus of that class but subtract two. (A level 10 Wizard/level 2 Fighter ends up with 9 class bonus to AC - 5 + (6-2)4). I still didn't like that as it still provided just as much of an advantage as their current method.
I did think the whole class defense bonus progression could use a bit of an overhaul, especially with the insane differences between classes (making multiclassing either too beneficial or too weak).

I've got progressions based on the average of BAB and Ref of the class here (thanks to Tenzhi for that idea). Most values end up higher than the UA version, but they don't start nearly as high.
Now, that's much better. Looks really high, alright, but that could be solved by simply halving the values - although I haven't played a high-level game yet, so I don't know exactly how much that impacts things. Looks to me like enchanted armor eventually becomes useless (outside of non-ac bonuses, obviously) if that is followed to the letter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dastari 05-29-06, 07:46 PM	I've been reading in Unearthed Arcana about Defense Value for classes and Damage Reduction for armor. I really like the idea of both but in the book its really set up as two different ideas. They have a sidebar trying to combine the two but one variant is to powerful (basically giving you the best of both worlds) and the other just seems skewed wrong. Plus I have a basic problem with how they've set up the defense values. What I would like to see is someone set out to create a system that combines both of these rules. In such a system the DV progression for each class would be much slower because you're also going to acquire damage reduction from your armor. You still take the better value between your class Defense Value and the AC of the armor but with the armor providing much lower AC bonuses you're defense value will probably almost always help. Armor will still impede your total AC for the purposes of adding your Dex modifier to your total AC. I also don't think that if you multiclass that you ought to take whatever value is better between the two classes. For instance, in the rules as stated in Unearthed Arcana simply taking one Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric level will put you in the fast Defense Value progression as ruled by your total character level. I'd rather see a DV that stacks much like base attack bonuses stack now so that if you multiclass you just add the first level DV of your new class to your total DV. Has anyone ever tried something like that? If so, how did you lay it out for the various classes?
jagggar 05-29-06, 09:18 PM	I've got progressions based on the average of BAB and Ref of the class here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9033592&postcount=67) (thanks to Tenzhi for that idea). Most values end up higher than the UA version, but they don't start nearly as high. But is 4/- really that signifigant at higher levels?
Jerks 06-01-06, 03:42 AM	I too thought that the foundation of the ideals in UA were sound, but the actual values and execution of it were off. My campaign uses a class defense bonus and splits armor value between DR and AC. Here are the rules THE CLASS DEFENSE BONUS Each PC class character has a defense bonus based on his character level. A character wearing armor gains its armor bonus (including enhancements to that bonus) in addition to his defense bonus. The defense bonus stacks with all other bonuses to AC, including the character’s shield bonus, natural armor bonus and so forth. Class defense bonus equals one-half of a character’s class derived base attack bonus. Base attack bonus from racial Hit Die and NPC classes does not provide any class defense bonus. One-half of a character’s class defense bonus is applied to a character’s AC versus touch attacks (round-up) and one-half of a character’s class defense bonus is applied to a character’s flat-footed AC (round-down). ARMOR DEFENSE BONUS When worn by a proficient user, armor adds an armor defense bonus to a character’s armor class. This number is relatively small (in comparison to published numbers), but stacks with a character’s class defense bonus. The whole of this armor bonus is added to a character’s flat-footed AC, but armor is wholly ineffective versus touch attacks (as in standard rules), and is not figured versus a character’s touch AC. Characters not proficient in an armor gain no AC bonus from it. ARMOR DAMAGE REDUCTION All armor helps to reduce the damage from serious blows. This damage reduction is type DR/-. It does not stack with other types of DR, but freely stacks with the same type of DR (such as a Barbarian’s class DR). I'll give some examples from the armor table Padded.....AC +0....DR 1/- Leather.... AC +1....DR 1/- Chainshirt..AC +1....DR 3/- Hide.........AC +2....DR 2/- Chainmail..AC +2....DR 4/- Splint.......AC +3....DR 4/- Full Plate...AC +4....DR 6/- Finally, there is a limit to how much class bonus you can benefit from when wearing armor. You maximum class bonus to defense cannot exceed either the max bonus to AC or the armor bonus to AC (whichever is greater) of the armor. So far this has worked for us, and I've used it in two different systems. In a hit point system, the DR is bypassed on a crit. Using Vitality/wounds, we ruled that the DR only kicks in when taking wound damage and thus is not bypassed on a crit. Instead it's designed to save you life when you take a crit.
Khementari 06-01-06, 01:43 PM	Pick up Iron Heroes for more help on that issue. Use class defense bonus and DR from armor. The big difference is that armor does not give a static DR it give you a die to roll. Suddenly platemail is something like 1d8 DR. It still offers great protection and at the same time doesn't render weapons like a dagger useless.
Cheza 06-01-06, 02:27 PM	The simpliest way would be to add the BAB to any creatures AC value and transfer the armor bonus to damage reduction. I use this rule with some restrictions: - Anybody has two weapon fighting and you can ready single attack actions instead of just a standard actions. So if you really want to block or dodge an incoming blow, you'll have to use an unused attack. This is treated as an off-hand attack and functions like an AoO. So attack+block is an opposed attack roll. You can take 10 on this defensive roll. Example: Block = BAB + Shield-size modifier + Strength/Dexterity - off-hand malus (any size mod = ± 4 bonus for each size category) You can't however use more block actions than you have attacks unused :teach: Any other attack made against you rolls against the normal AC value. Any bonuses from armor is transfered 100% to damage reduction value. Result: You have a defensive rating only a well-defined number of times per round. So it won't be a permanently unbeatable bonus to your AC. However any creature should have a "aim" feat, which means that he can take a malus to his chance to hit to ignore enemy damage reduction. Example: Lidda knows that her dagger won't deal enough damage to pierce a full plate. So she decides to aim at this tiny vulnerable spot she had noticed. Unfortunately this increases the chance of her opponent to deflect her blow well enough so that she will miss this spot. She rolls her attack. Her enemy chooses to block her blow. He rolls for dexterity and adds his BAB and a +4 size modifier for the shield, but gets a malus for an off-hand action. Since he is the only one who knows the exact armor bonus for his full plate, he gets an bonus to his block-roll (insead of a malus for Lidda), Cause Lidda tries to bypass his armor it should be quite simple... To simplify this, he can choose to take 10. Lidda has a weapon in her off hand, so she repeats the process. Her enemy doesn't have an unused action (he already attacked this turn (and blocked with his off-hand)), so he can't choose to block "deliberately". So either Lidda rolls against the normal AC (includes bypassing the full plate) or ignore the armor rating, what means that her enemy has a damage reduction of 8 (=AC of a full plate). You should have noticed, that "aim" is more or less like "power attack" in regard of damage reduction. By reducing your chance to hit, you'll do more damage, which will negate an equal amount of damage reduction from armor. (only with one handed weapons). So lyou could use both: power attack (strength based) and aim (dexterity based). _____________________________ You should change feats to fit into this rule. dodge as a feat should give a single "dodge" action a bonus instead of a general +1 bonus vs. 1 enemy. Feats like bypassing shield, etc. will be more effective and deflect arrows should be treated like an unarmed "block" against a ranged attack.
Zyrusticae 06-07-06, 09:47 AM	I've been considering options for this as well. One idea that I've run through is doing it the way the SW RPG does it - when you add another class, you add the defense bonus of that class but subtract two. (A level 10 Wizard/level 2 Fighter ends up with 9 class bonus to AC - 5 + (6-2)4). I still didn't like that as it still provided just as much of an advantage as their current method. I did think the whole class defense bonus progression could use a bit of an overhaul, especially with the insane differences between classes (making multiclassing either too beneficial or too weak). I've got progressions based on the average of BAB and Ref of the class here (thanks to Tenzhi for that idea). Most values end up higher than the UA version, but they don't start nearly as high. Now, that's much better. Looks really high, alright, but that could be solved by simply halving the values - although I haven't played a high-level game yet, so I don't know exactly how much that impacts things. Looks to me like enchanted armor eventually becomes useless (outside of non-ac bonuses, obviously) if that is followed to the letter.