Diehard with Death & Dying Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diehard with Death & Dying Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eagle of the Star
09-21-05, 03:56 PM I've just been fooling around in my current campaign with the Death & Dying variant on page 121 of Unearthed Arcana.
So far I like the variant, but I suddenly realized I don't know how to handle the Diehard feat in this rules system (it isn't as simple as simply saying it doesn't exist -- many classes, monsters, and prcs are balanced around this feat).
Should I say it simply that it allows a character in the "dying" state to behave as if in the "disabled state" (with the obvious difference being what happens when he fails his next save)? This seems most balanced to me. Has anyone else out there used this variant?
Arcade
09-21-05, 05:14 PM This has come up before and I don't think it was ever answered satisfactorily.

Diehard let's a character keep going when hitting -ve hit points, and they are stabilised to boot. The next hit will likely kill them since -10 hit points is really quite close.

My thought is that if a character takes enough damage to make him dying and he has die hard, record how far under he would have been hit point wise. This total is added to the damage done when determining all future saves.

i.e. A character is fighting a giant and takes a critical hit for 60 points of damage, reducing him to -35 hp. He manages to make the death and dying roll and with diehard he fights on.
Next round an orc hits him for 10 points of damage. Normally, this is not worrisome, but since the character is now practically dying, his death and dying save is made as if he took 45 points of damage. If he makes this, all future saves are made with a 45 point damage boost as well.

The only thing I don't have figured out is when the penalty goes away- do you force the character to heal back all that negative damage? My thought is make them heal it all back except 10 points- that puts them on about equal footing with everyone else.

If this seems too easy, I actually use a harsher rule in my game. I add up the damage from the hit that put them under, not just how much they go under. So in the above example, the save against the orc's attack would be at 70 hp damage instead (the original 60 + 10 from the orc). Use whichever one fits your campaign better.
Xeviat-DM
09-23-05, 03:51 AM I have two versions of the Diehard feat, both made to take into account the differences of the new Death and Dying system. The first was made to be directly ported into the new system, while the second was made for my games, which have a slightly different Death and Dying system.

DIEHARD [GENERAL] [FIGHTER]
You are extremely difficult to kill.
Prerequisite: Endurance (Note: Endurance's +4 bonus to Fortitude and Constitution checks apply to the save to resist dying)
Benefit: When you are reduced to 0 hp and you fail your Fortitude save and are now dying, you do not have to make a fortitude save each round to see if you die.
While disabled, if you take damage again, you are not reduced to dying unless you fail your fortitude save (you still die if you fail your save by 10 or more), though for every fortitude save to resist dying you make after the first while you are disabled, increase the DC of the save by 1.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to 0 hp and who fails their Fortitude save is unconscious and dying. A character without this feat who is disabled and takes further damage is automatically reduced to the dying state, or is dead if they fail their fortitude save by 10 or more.

The second requires some background to how I changed the new Death and Dying Rules.

Everything is the same, except damage is tracked into negatives. You are disabled when reduced to 0 hp, but the fort save to resist dying is only 10 at that point. The DC to resist dying is equal to 10 + 1 per 5 points of damage suffered below 0. So if an attack reduces you to -5 hp, the Fort DC is 11. As usual, if you are disabled, the next attack will reduce you to dying, regardless of if you succeed the save or not (unless you fail by 10 or more, which means you're dead). Each round you are dying and not stable, you take one additional point of damage, which slowly increases the saving throw DCs you have to succeed to resist dying (once you fail the save by 10 or more, you die). Here's the new Diehard that I use in my games:

DIEHARD [GENERAL] [FIGHTER]
You are extremely difficult to kill.
Prerequisite: Endurance (Note: Endurance's +4 bonus to Fortitude and Constitution checks apply to the save to resist dying)
Benefit: When you are reduced to negative hp and you fail your Fortitude save and are now dying, you automatically become stable. You still have to make additional fortitude saves if you are damaged, as usual.
While disabled, if you take damage again, you are not reduced to dying unless you fail your fortitude save (you still die if you fail your save by 10 or more), though you still suffer 1 point of damage when performing any strenuous actions.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hp and who fails their Fortitude save is unconscious and dying. A character without this feat who is disabled and takes further damage is automatically reduced to the dying state, or is dead if they fail their fortitude save by 10 or more.

I showed this off back when UA came out, but no one seemed to notice that Diehard required some re-writing. Hope you enjoy one of the versions I posted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eagle of the Star 09-21-05, 03:56 PM	I've just been fooling around in my current campaign with the Death & Dying variant on page 121 of Unearthed Arcana. So far I like the variant, but I suddenly realized I don't know how to handle the Diehard feat in this rules system (it isn't as simple as simply saying it doesn't exist -- many classes, monsters, and prcs are balanced around this feat). Should I say it simply that it allows a character in the "dying" state to behave as if in the "disabled state" (with the obvious difference being what happens when he fails his next save)? This seems most balanced to me. Has anyone else out there used this variant?
Arcade 09-21-05, 05:14 PM	This has come up before and I don't think it was ever answered satisfactorily. Diehard let's a character keep going when hitting -ve hit points, and they are stabilised to boot. The next hit will likely kill them since -10 hit points is really quite close. My thought is that if a character takes enough damage to make him dying and he has die hard, record how far under he would have been hit point wise. This total is added to the damage done when determining all future saves. i.e. A character is fighting a giant and takes a critical hit for 60 points of damage, reducing him to -35 hp. He manages to make the death and dying roll and with diehard he fights on. Next round an orc hits him for 10 points of damage. Normally, this is not worrisome, but since the character is now practically dying, his death and dying save is made as if he took 45 points of damage. If he makes this, all future saves are made with a 45 point damage boost as well. The only thing I don't have figured out is when the penalty goes away- do you force the character to heal back all that negative damage? My thought is make them heal it all back except 10 points- that puts them on about equal footing with everyone else. If this seems too easy, I actually use a harsher rule in my game. I add up the damage from the hit that put them under, not just how much they go under. So in the above example, the save against the orc's attack would be at 70 hp damage instead (the original 60 + 10 from the orc). Use whichever one fits your campaign better.
Xeviat-DM 09-23-05, 03:51 AM	I have two versions of the Diehard feat, both made to take into account the differences of the new Death and Dying system. The first was made to be directly ported into the new system, while the second was made for my games, which have a slightly different Death and Dying system. DIEHARD [GENERAL] [FIGHTER] You are extremely difficult to kill. Prerequisite: Endurance (Note: Endurance's +4 bonus to Fortitude and Constitution checks apply to the save to resist dying) Benefit: When you are reduced to 0 hp and you fail your Fortitude save and are now dying, you do not have to make a fortitude save each round to see if you die. While disabled, if you take damage again, you are not reduced to dying unless you fail your fortitude save (you still die if you fail your save by 10 or more), though for every fortitude save to resist dying you make after the first while you are disabled, increase the DC of the save by 1. Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to 0 hp and who fails their Fortitude save is unconscious and dying. A character without this feat who is disabled and takes further damage is automatically reduced to the dying state, or is dead if they fail their fortitude save by 10 or more. The second requires some background to how I changed the new Death and Dying Rules. Everything is the same, except damage is tracked into negatives. You are disabled when reduced to 0 hp, but the fort save to resist dying is only 10 at that point. The DC to resist dying is equal to 10 + 1 per 5 points of damage suffered below 0. So if an attack reduces you to -5 hp, the Fort DC is 11. As usual, if you are disabled, the next attack will reduce you to dying, regardless of if you succeed the save or not (unless you fail by 10 or more, which means you're dead). Each round you are dying and not stable, you take one additional point of damage, which slowly increases the saving throw DCs you have to succeed to resist dying (once you fail the save by 10 or more, you die). Here's the new Diehard that I use in my games: DIEHARD [GENERAL] [FIGHTER] You are extremely difficult to kill. Prerequisite: Endurance (Note: Endurance's +4 bonus to Fortitude and Constitution checks apply to the save to resist dying) Benefit: When you are reduced to negative hp and you fail your Fortitude save and are now dying, you automatically become stable. You still have to make additional fortitude saves if you are damaged, as usual. While disabled, if you take damage again, you are not reduced to dying unless you fail your fortitude save (you still die if you fail your save by 10 or more), though you still suffer 1 point of damage when performing any strenuous actions. Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hp and who fails their Fortitude save is unconscious and dying. A character without this feat who is disabled and takes further damage is automatically reduced to the dying state, or is dead if they fail their fortitude save by 10 or more. I showed this off back when UA came out, but no one seemed to notice that Diehard required some re-writing. Hope you enjoy one of the versions I posted.