Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gedrin 10-02-04, 01:25 AM	It seems that there is no system widely available for a special attack that targets a N/PC's limbs. While I'm currently looking for a good one, I'm going to ask for some help in coming up with a mechanic that might work. I'm not looking for a hit location chart. I'm not looking for a critical hit system. I'm not looking for a new way of describing damage that the PC's recieve. I am looking for a new special attack, similar to Disarm, Trip, or Sunder, that both the DM and Players can use. It may be that I'm simply looking for a special case of Sunder, and that's the way I'm currently leaning. Two questions follow; What's the AC of a character's limb?, and How many HP does the limb have? It seems that the AC of a limb should be higher than the overall AC of the target, just due to size if nothing else. My current thought on HP of a limb is 1/4 the HP of the target. I realize that this sort of mechanic gives an extra edge to those with sneak attack or other abilities that apply large ammounts of damage in a targetted way.
MortalPlague 10-02-04, 06:04 AM	Maybe apply a -4 penalty to the attack, and the player has to cut through the hardness of the armor, but if they manage to deal enough damage to the limb, it's severed?
RealMad 10-02-04, 06:57 AM	Don't even bother. A Limb Removal game mechanic is the same as a mechanic that allows for a Called Shot to the Head for an instant kill. It's broken and it gets tired quickly.
Keoki 10-02-04, 09:03 AM	You can check out the optional critical hit effects and hit locations in the Star Wars Galactic Campaign Guide. I've been applying them to D&D for some time now, and our group really likes the detail they add.
Grox 10-02-04, 12:57 PM	Maybe apply a -4 penalty to the attack, and the player has to cut through the hardness of the armor, but if they manage to deal enough damage to the limb, it's severed? As much as I hate most called-shot mechanics in D&D, this may not be too abusive. Most proposals for such mechanic apply attack penalties that I consider far too low, since they all wither into insignificance with the application of True Strike, a 1st-level spell --- this has the effect of making low-level wizards and sorcerors far too dangerous to low- and mid-level fighters in melee. However, this mechanic --- hardness of the armor, 1/4 of the total hit points --- may mitigate everything somewhat. Let me get this straight: say you are a 4th-level fighter with 36 hit points max. You are wearing some kind of steel armor, which I think has a hardness of 10. I would have to take a -4 to hit AND deal 19 hit points to you, and this would disable one of your limbs? To me, the limb-disabling thing has to be kind of a judgment call, a calculated risk. A 10th level fighter may be able to do it all the time to a 3rd level fighter, but against a 10-hit-die opponent it should be dicey. Any technique that requires no feat, but is ALWAYS worth a try, breaks the balance of the system. I wouldn't mind this, with the following caveat: in the example above, if I try this "disable limb" move on you, but fail --- say I hit you despite the attack penalty but only deal 18 points --- you don't actually take the 18 points of damage. This way the maneuver requires a calculated risk. I'm also against "severing" the limbs with an attack like this, because it simply doesn't make sense for some weapons to do so --- unarmed strikes, rapiers, spears, etc. The opponent is pretty helpless anyway with a busted or dislocated arm that he can't use, and once you have beaten him unconscious you can slice off his disabled arms at your leisure :)
SirAronar 10-02-04, 03:01 PM	I would never implement a system for this personally, but my recommendation for one would be: Attacking a limb (arms, legs, tails, and tentacles, not heads) requires a full-round action that draws an attack of opportunity. You make the attack at a -4 penalty to hit. If the attack of opportunity succeeds, your attack attemps fails. You also must do at least 10% the creature's max hit points in damage to work. Creatures 2 sizes larger or undead, constructs, etc. are immune. For every successful hit on an arm (or other attack or skill use worthy limb), that limb takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. Each successive hit makes this penalty cummulative. You recover 1 point per day of light activity, 2 points for day of full rest, +1 point if under the care of a healer. For every successful hit on a leg (or mobility based limb), where the target does not have enough mobility limbs to compensate for the loss of one (a creature that slithers on 6 tentacles for instance), the target loses 25% of their speed. This is cummulative up to 100%. In cases where a creature can lose a mobility limb, you have to damage enough of them to hamper the creature and use the lowest penalty. You recover 5% of your movement per day of light activity, 10% for a full day's rest, and an additional 10% if under the care of a healer. Cure spells should also aid recovery, at the rate of Light Wounds being 1 day of light activity, Moderate equal to a full day's rest, Serious being 2 days of full rest, and Critical equal to 3 days of full rest. Heal should fully recover the target. You could also add a feat for arm strikes and one for leg strikes that either eliminate the -4 penalty, reduce the full-round action to a standard action, or remove the attack of opportunity. All depends how dangerous you want the campaign and how much player downtime you're willing to swallow as they recover.
Mind Rogue 10-02-04, 08:23 PM	A called shot should probably operate like a sunder attack. I wouldn't suggest applying the hardness of armor, since winning this opposed roll sugests that you missed whatever armor was protecting it, although maybe you could apply some sort of natural hardness for the creature, like the Hardness 2, akin to the limb being made out of leather. Grox suggests that a limb should have 1/4 of the Hp of the wielder. If you deal all of this damage, you have either severed or totally disabled the limb, making it worthless, although a regeneration spell can regrow the limb. If you fail to deal all of this damage, the limb is only damaged, causing a -2 penalty on all attempts to use it, such as an attack roll for an arm. In either case, damage dealt to a limb is not counted against the bearers Hp. Note that damage to certain limbs might cause extra penalties, like moving at half speed due to being hit in the leg. It could concievably be possible to make an armor table for limbs, especially if you decide to use the "hit an object worn or carried" version of sunder rather than "hit a weapon"
Grox 10-03-04, 01:34 AM	Grox suggests that a limb should have 1/4 of the Hp of the wielder. If you deal all of this damage, you have either severed or totally disabled the limb, making it worthless, although a regeneration spell can regrow the limb. If you fail to deal all of this damage, the limb is only damaged, causing a -2 penalty on all attempts to use it, such as an attack roll for an arm. In either case, damage dealt to a limb is not counted against the bearers Hp. Well, I didn't *suggest* the 1/4 hp ratio, Gedrin did that before me. I certainly approve of it in this narrow context though:) I also would like to remove the possibility of outright severing, and require the full amount of damage (1/4 of target's max) to even *damage* the limb. The problem is that instantly severing a limb is basically a death sentence, since the target immediately goes into shock, becomes helpless to avoid a coup de grace, and bleeds to death in a few minutes anyway. Whereas merely "disabling" a limb could mean lots of things, depending on the how the DM wants the story to go with the particular PC or NPC who gets "disabled" --- the bone could be broken, merely dislocated, it could be lacerated enough so that it's too painful to move about in combat or simply numb, etc., whatever the story requires. If "the story requires" that the PCs want the fun of severing their enemy's arm, they can do it just fine *after* they've beaten him into submission, can't they? :confused:
Mind Rogue 10-03-04, 10:04 AM	Maybe ignore the whole Hp thing for a limb, and instead force a fortitude save, DC 10 +damage dealt or something. On a failure, the limb is disabled, and it can't be used. If you fail by 10 or more, the limb gets severed. Also, some of these guys are the ones who can actually keep on fighting even though they are missing a limb (we call that the Diehard feat). Also, breaking a bone during this period was generally impossible to fix, and some of the disabled applications cannot be fixed via spells like regenerate. Eventually, they will be able to find someone who can regrow their arm.
Gedrin 10-06-04, 05:22 AM	I'm actually looking more at "disabled" rather than "severed". Severed really does imply that the victim of the attack is out of the fight, baring some extraordinary ability to stick with it. Disabled gives me a lot more lattitude. i don't plan on worying about shock for disabled limbs more than I wory about it for people getting kinfed in major organs (sneak attack). Here's what I'm currently looking at. New Maneuver: Limb Attack You attack a target's limb with the intent to damage and/or disable it. While the D&D system assumes you are always trying to target the most damaging targets on a foe, the limb attack assumes you're targeting the less vital limbs. Since the critical hit mechanic duplicates successful strikes to vital areas, you loose the chance to score a critical hit when attempting a Limb Attack. 1. A Limb Attack, like all other attacks against non-vital targets on a foe, prevokes an attack of opportunity. If the AoO is successful, the Limb Attack may still succeed. 2. Attack roll vs. target's AC with a -4 modifier for attempting to strike a limb. 3. If the attack roll is successful, damage is dealt to a target's limb as normal. If the limb has suffered total damage equal to 1/4 the target's total HP, the limb is disabled. The target cannot suffer more than 1/4 its total HP from attacks to a single limb. Example: If a target has 20 HP, and its limb is hit for 10, while the limb would be disabled, the target would only take 5 HP damage. 4. If the attack roll is unsuccessful, by any ammount, it is treated as a total miss. New Condition: Disabled Limb A limb that has become disabled, by whatever means, require powerful magic or a skilled healer to mend. To begin the healing process, one of three things must happen: 1. Heal DC 20: This sets the bone and allows the healing process to begin. If the limb has healed without being properly tended, a DC 30 check is required to allow it to properly heal. 2. Restoration: Much as the Restoration spell can heal ability damage, it can also restore a limb to the proper condition that it may heal as it should. This restores no HP, but, like a Heal check, prepares the limb for healing. Restoration will also remedy a limb that has healed improperly. 3. Regeneration: This spell instantly heals a disabled limb, as per the spell description. After either option 1 or 2, the target must heal (mundanely or magically) 1/4 it's total hit points before the limb is fully recovered. Disabled Arms: A disabled arm cannot wield a weapon, cary a shield, or otherwise perform tasks. Small light weight objects may be held in the hand at the discression of the DM, provided they are placed there. The DC of any skill requiring or benefiting from two hands is increased by 5. Note to Spellcasters: Casting somantic spells with only one arm has 2 effects; 1. a concentration check DC 15 + Spell Level is required, 2. readying components becomes a move equivilent action rather than a free/included action. Disabled Legs: For creatures with only two legs, the loss of a leg halves movement. Any Dodge bonuses are lost. The DC of any skill requiring movement is increased by 10, and the DM is free to determine some skills are impossible to use to their fullest (possibly Jump). New Feat: Improved Limb Attack Melee (Improved Limb Attack Ranged) Prerequisites: Improved Disarm or Improved Sunder (Precise Shot), BAB+4 Denies the target an Attack of Opportunity. Enables the attacker to score a Critical Hit against a limb. However, the target can still only suffer 1/4 its total HP from the limb attack. This is my current thought. At the moment, I'm not sure if I want to include the contest of rolls, similar to sunder, or not. My instinct says no, since it tends to slow things down in combat.
RealMad 10-06-04, 08:03 AM	I fail to see why this discussion continues. The problem with disabling limbs is that you're looking to bypass a character's HP. This is not like Disarming or Sundering a Weapon, it's not even lke Grappling. You are rendering body parts useless. Then there comes the bigger question: If I can call a spot attack to hack at an arm or leg, why can't i attack just the head? Honestly, for those who can't be diswayed by game balance, I think the only fair way to do this is: When an opponent would be brought down to -9 HP by a blow, or you deal massive damage, you may instead choose to disable a limb. Anyway, HP isn't actually just how much damage you can take (which is why a 20th level Fighter still dies when you slit his throat, even though that dagger didn't do more than 20 pts of damage), it's a measure of how blows that would lay down less experienced characters are better handled by veterans. That being the case, let the character have the benefit of HP without this obvious bypass mechanic. In the end, if a player insists on this, I'd send 20 orcs after him, all looking to chop his arm off. Eventually someone'll do it.
Zak'nafein 10-06-04, 08:48 AM	I personally hate the idea of called shots, but there have been some great ideas up here, particularly from Gedrin, but if you want a system that's already been premade and printed, then you can look into Mongoose Publishing's "The Quintessential Fighter" for a complete called shot system. This is the exact print as it reads in the book (it's quite lengthy, so skip ahead if you don't care to read it all): -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Called Shots Fighters and, indeed, any adventurers locked into combat usually seek to destroy their enemies as quickly as possible before they succumb to their own attacks. There is little room for finesse and flair down the darkest dungeons and survival normally depends on lightning-fast reactions coupled with devastating blows that ensure once an enemy hits the ground, he stays down. However, as any fighter knows, there are many more ways to cripple and defeat an enemy than simply swinging a sword at him again and again. Some instead choose to aim their blows at specific parts of their enemy's body, not only dealing damage, but also aiming to whittle down his ability to continue fighting in an effective manner. By striking at heads, eyes, arms and legs, fighters can all but incapacitate a foe, leaving him vulnerable to both their own attacks and those of allies. Even the greatest orc warlord will be left at a great disadvantage after a fighter has cunningly taken one of his eyes with a deadly sword thrust. Making a Called Shot A variety of called shots may be made by a character who meets the prerequisites, as detailed below. In order to make a called shot, a character must score a threat against an enemy, and then declare one of the called shots below (announcing 'called shot to the head!' for example), instead of attempting a critical hit. Damage is applied as normal with the first attack roll, but another is made immediately. If this second attack roll is also successful, then extra damage is not rolled for, but the effects of the called shot [are] applied instead. Called shots may only be attempted with melee attacks and, in addition, may not be attempted against any enemy who is immune to critical hits. The effects of a called shot may be negated through any use of any cure spell or a Heal check made at DC 15. Called Shot to the Arm Any enemy who suffers a called shot to the arm will be placed at a great disadvantage in battle as their limb will be all but useless for a time. A called shot to the arm may not be made against any arm that carries a shield. However, a successful attack will cause the victim to drop anything held in their hand, automatically disarming them. In addition, they will lose another 1d4 points of damage and suffer a -4 circumstance penalty to all checks and attack rolls made using the wounded arm. The effects of a called shot to the arm will last 1d6 rounds unless healed. A character must have a base attack bonus of +2 in order to be able to make a called shot to the arm. Called Shot to the Eye By striking at an opponent's eye, a character may all but blind an opponent or, at the very least, cause an excessive amount of blood to obscure vision. A victim of a successful called shot to the eye is dealt an additional 1d6 points of damage and sufferes a -4 circumstace penalty to all attack rolls and reflex saves. In addition, the victim will lose 10 feet from his base speed and face a -4 circumstance penalty to all Dexterity-based checks. A victim who suffers another called shot to the eye whilst under these effects will be automatically blinded. The effects of a called shot to the eye will last for 1d6 hours unless healed. After this time has elapsed, the victim must make a Fortitude save at DC 15 in order for his eyesight to return as normal. If he fails, the effects of losing an eye will be permanent until a regeneration spell or similar [effect] has been applied. A character must have a base attack bonus of +10 in order to be ale to make a called shot to the eye. Called Shot to the Groin Seen as one of the lowest tricks to employ during combat, many fighters strike in the dirtiest fashion they can, willing to do anything in order to defeat an opponent. A victim of a successful called shot to the groin (also known as the nut-cracker [maneuver]) will be staggered and only able to take partial actions for 1d6 rounds unless healed. A character must have a base attack bonus of +2 in order to be able to make a called shot to the groin. Called Shot to the Head By striking at an opponent's head, the character aims for oneof the most vulnerable parts of the anatomy and can cause a great deal of pain and suffering with a single blow. A victim of a called shot to the head will be stunned and suffer an additional 1d4 pointts of damage. During this time, he will also lose any Dexterity bonus to [Armor] Class and can take no actions. Any attacker gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls against the stunned victim. The effects of a called shot to the head will last 1d4 rounds unless healed. A character must have a base attack bonus of +8 in order to be able to make a called shot to the head. Called Shot to the Leg By striking at an opponent's leg, a character my cripple hisability to fight effectively in combat, and will certainly reduce his chances to escape. A victim of a successful called shot to the leg will suffer an additional 1d4 points of damage and have his base speed halved. In addition, all Climb, Jump, and Swim checks will be made with a -4 circumstance penalty. The effects of a called shot to the leg will last 1d6 rounds unless healed. A character must have a base attack bonus of +2 in order to be able to make a called shot to the leg. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This may not seem like much to a character that has 20 class levels, but remember, the world around your characters are filled with NPCs that barely have one level of commoner. The overpowering nature of a called shot is inherently destructive to the game and I have banned all such uses from my campaigns. Good luck, hope this post helps.
Gedrin 10-06-04, 03:44 PM	Regarding the unballancing effect of a called shot to disable a limb: A single disabled limb is not a death sentance, as presented here. Even a fighter using a 2 handed weapon is only at a -2 to hit with that weapon, if a single arm is disabled. Loosing just dodge bonuses and being at half move is dangerous, but it doesn't remove the ability to fight. Disabling two limbs, much more seriousl. Either you've removed the ability to fight, or the ability to move, or a bit of both. While it may seem like you've only done 1/2 their HP to acomplish this effect, at minimum it was done after taking a -4 to hit on each of those attacks. Without the apropriate Feat (which requires 2 prerequisite feats), you're also taking attacks of opportunity. Either way, you give up your ability to deal critical hits. It looks to me like the risk/reward here is ballanced with the Feat, and biased toward risk without the feat. While I understand many people dislike called shots, I think adding in some sort of system to disable limbs will bring me more options in my game for PC's and NPC's. I understand that a called shot to a limb is similar to a called shot to a vital target, but I already have a mechanic for dealing with hits to vital targets (the standard critical hit rules). You are free to do as you like in your games, and I appreciate the admonition agains something you find unballancing. Believe me, I've thought about this for a long time. If things go overboard, I'll just remove the rule. The more I think about it, the more I think the Improved Disable Limb feat is a bit much. Revised feat reads as such: New Feat: Improved Limb Attack Melee (Improved Limb Attack Ranged) Prerequisites: Improved Disarm or Improved Sunder (Precise Shot), BAB+4 Denies the target an Attack of Opportunity. However, the target can still only suffer 1/4 its total HP from the limb attack, and limbs are not subject to critical hits. Only change is that you can't critical hit the limb, even with the feat.