Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goawayugh 05-03-06, 02:04 PM	I am about to start a game w/ 2 PC's. both gestalt at 13th level. one is ranger9/skylord4/druid13 and the other is soulknife5/soulbow8/favored soul13. Has anyone come across some major problems DMing gestalt characters? Would you recomend letting them do this?
00_Whupass 05-03-06, 02:10 PM	In a party of two if you want to fill all the classic roles, and thereby have a balanced party the only real way to do that is gestalt. I've not DM'ed Gestalt so I can't offer any specific advice or issues that may crop up, other than to refer you to the basic "Balancing Gestalt Characters" section of Unearthed Arcana or the SRD. I'm about to begin DMing a Gestalt game myself and will be watching this thread closely to gain more insight into the potential kinks in the system.
ForgottenCode 05-03-06, 02:42 PM	I'd be very, very careful what you allow your players to play. A friend of mine ran a twink game recently where we could make anything, and so we all played Gestalt characters. It became very ridiculous, very fast. A friend of mine played a Master of Many Forms/Wizard who was basically unkillable. I played a Fighter/Psion that could take down monsters of double CR in one round. That said, if your players are not trying to be as silly powerful as possible, it might work out.
adimeadozen 05-03-06, 02:49 PM	As mentioned, it can get troublesome if your players run wild trying to get as much power as possible, because there are certain things that mesh quite well with Gestalt. That said, I've never really had any specific issues with it, as long as you compensate for the power gain, unfortunately there is no definate measure of gain, start with what UA suggests, and see how it fits your party.
sren 05-03-06, 10:22 PM	I'm DMing a gestalt game now, and the only change I made to the gestalt rules was that each player must choose one base class that they use for one part of their progression at each level. Otherwise, anything goes. I've had only a couple complaints from players trying to stack things that shouldn't stack or combine things that actually break the rules (whirling frenzy barbarian option with deverish dance, or stacking sneak attack classes to get more damage dice than an equal HD rogue, or the deliberate misinterpretation of the partial BAB and save bonuses to get a BAB higher than HD). So far, my characters are between levels 7 and 10, and the game seems to be going well. I have a lot of players though, and they did all concentrate on making characters good at only one thing (all but two of the 7 or so characters have fighter levels). The only thing I would change if I could go back, would be to discuss making sure all of the party roles are adequately covered, which makes planning encounters easier. (i.e. until the last session, the only arcane caster in the group was a swashbuckler / bard who doesn't show up every week). Power levels aren't really a problem (I started my group at level 5 with high ability scores and max hp for level 5), so far I've killed one character with three crits in a row, and left several bleeding to death by the time fights were over, so I don't find that the individual characters are that much more powerful. What gestalting really adds in power is in party options, it lets the group do things as a group that a regulary party might not be able to do (having one caster prepare mostly utility spells and act like a fighter in battle so the party can make what would normally be seen as wasteful use of spells in between combats or in preparation for). As noted by pervious posters, bigger problems do come in if you can't trust your players to be reasonable, expect (and plan encounters around) some powergaming, but if anyone finds a truly unstopable loophole that is hurting the groups, ask him to make a different character (or change the way he plays) or kick him out of the group. Also note, that unless gestalt is the norm for every intelligent creature in your campaign setting, then your characters will be more powerful than other normal mortals, and it should show (with seemingly easy fights) every once in a while. Notes on my group: 2x fighter-cleric (one a replacement for the fighter-rogue that died). 2x fighter-monk 1x fighter-sorcerer 1x fighter-dread necromancer 1x fighter-scout 1x cleric-rogue 1x swashbuckler-bard 1x fighter-barbarian Obviously not directly similar to your situation (only two players will be rough), I hope that was helpfull. Just my two CP, S'Ren
goawayugh 05-04-06, 02:45 PM	well, the 2 PC's are my wife and our best friend, so I dont think kicking them out of the group will be an option. besides, they are both more into character concept than power gaming. plus I'm the one who knows the rules inside and out so they cant really call me on much. thanks for your input.
Merestil Haye 05-05-06, 08:24 AM	I'm DMing a gestalt game that has run from 2nd level to the characters now beginning to taste the prospect of 20th level. At low to middle levels, the biggest difference is that the characters are much more resilient; they can take more punishment than the same-size party of standard characters and still be in OK shape. To maintain the challenge at high levels, throw them curveballs, and don't be afraid to throw ridiculous encounters at them. Last week's fight (against only 4 characters plus two NPCs, instead of the full group) was : one 20th level gestalt Necromancer/Cleric one 18th level Arcane Archer / Order of the Bow One drow Eldritch Knight One gestalt Fighter/Swashbuckler/Tattooed Monk | Monk One 19HD Shator Demondand | Warlock One 19th level CLeric with the old Madnes domain One Minotaur Frenzied Berserker All of them had several buffs running, including Superior Invisibility and True Seeing. However, seeing as there were only four there I dialled it back, and removed Ironguard from everyone but the Necromancer/Cleric, removed the first contingent Heal for each character, and the second from everyone except the two clerics. Additionally, the Energy Immunity (Acid) did not come into play because the Warlock player was missing. The player's comments? "Good fight".
Toran_A_Sunder 05-05-06, 08:48 AM	I've played in a couple gestalt games and the one thing I've learned is that it doesnt make the PCs, with some exceptions, that much more powerful. It just gives the party more options than they would normally have. And besides, your gestalt PC may be a Half-dragon half-giant fighter psion with disgusting attacks and psionic powers, but you only get one turn per round, to attack or use your power. It isn't too hard. I'm the same way as your wife and best friend. I prefer to run with a concept. I'm in a gestalt game rightnow playing a kobold monk/scout. Except for moving around like a bandit in combat, and helping everyone get in their flanking oppurtunities, I'm damn near useless. But I love the flavor. And when he dies, my next character will be a human fighter/knight. Exalted. He'll be much more powerful than my kobold, but still not too bad. And tons of fun for roleplaying.
gabrion 05-05-06, 09:25 AM	I dmed a gestalt game a while back. Besides the power concerns, which it looks like you will be able to handle simply through good communication, I would offer one other piece of advice. In order to make the game more difficult than a cake-walk, you'll need to do two things. First off, you may need to use higher level CRs that you normally would (I almost always found this to be the case). Second, and more important IMO, you need to force more encounters than you normally would for a gestalt group. A common misconception about gestalt is that the characters are a ton more powerful because they have to progressions. While this is true to a certain extent, I find the real benefit to be that these characters have a lot more stamina than a normal group (more spells, HP, more likely to make saves, etc). Keeping this in mind, you'll not only want to raise the CR of individual monsters, but you'll also want to throw a few more at them than you normally would. Judging the appropriate way to do this is different for every campaign, but just make sure your players aren't resting every night with only 1/5th of their class resources spent for the day.
Toxic_Shaman 05-26-06, 07:25 AM	Carefully consider what combinations your players want to play. Not all Gestalt Combinations are created equal. Some combinations lead to characters that have greater endurance but cant do anything more powerful than a normal character, other combinations can have synergies that lead to much higher damage potential than normal characters. Its no big deal which route your players go as long as you and all the players understand and agree what you are getting yourselves into The problem comes in if one players is powergaming and the other is not. It sounds like your group won't have this problem. Personally, I love Gestalt as it allows some character concepts that can't be made easily with normal characters, but the possibility for abuse is there. One of the best things about Gestalt as a player is that you can't make assumptions about the capabilities of the NPCs you run into (assuming that the DM uses Gestalt for NPCs too) Even if you see an NPC use some class ability the players don't know what else they can do.
flast 07-11-06, 03:05 PM	For the last nine months or so, I've been dming a drow gestalt game. My campaign is information/subterfuge/diplomacy/story based, but does have its share of good combat in it. We've had a great time so far; here are some thoughts for you: The gestalt party does indeed have more capability than a normal group, and so it does become more important for you to challenge them (higher CR, higher # of opponents, less rest, etc). But it's slightly more complicated than that. I've found that the gestalt options grant more Offense or Skill uses - the party can DO more things, but there ability to survive isn't that much better. Be careful to leave room to backpedal if the balance is tipped suddenly, unless you're ok with destroying all of those carefully-crafted and developed characters. I would VERY strongly recommend making all significant NPC's gestalt as well, which makes them very challenging and intimidating to the players (especially when the players are likely to encounter NPC's a number of times). Our group has one member (of six) who is not playing gestalt, and to balance that out, I've given him a 50% premium on xp earned. I started out with 25%, but it wasn't enough. The group has progressed from level 1 to levels 5-7, and power has been balanced between them. Our game is not a min-max kind of game, but the gestalt option has really added a lot of game mechanic strength to the players who have interesting character concepts/flavor. Highly recommended - have fun!
Victor_Phoenix 07-11-06, 04:18 PM	I have played and run gestalt games a couple times and some advice on how to run them effectively. Do not give characters max HP Why because part of the balance with certain classes is there hit point ratio even when combining them with other classes. Yes a Knight Sorcerer is going to have more HP than a Sorcerer Wizard giving them Max Hp will allow a smart Character end up with more Hp than a Dragon at that CR Do give monster MAX HP Why? Gestalt character no mater how they are set up can take a lot more punishment than other character drawing out the fights will increase the danger factor Do not raise damage Values of monster Instead raise the hit chances Gestalt has always felt at least to me as a movie Style fighting with blows being traded back and forth and Gestalt characters will often have very high ACs Do use multiple monsters and then ad some more. Encounters should really be slaughter fests once they have killed the all of the monsters in the said encounter do not give them respite instead bring in more Monster at the top of the initiative. Example a party of 5 5th level gestalt character a troll barguest and a spell caster 15 medium skeleton and a magma Mephit once they are dead ,and they will be, send in two more trolls and a giant spider that’s an encounter!! Do Half Exp before you give out Gestalt character will fight and then fight some more, they are the elite Special ops of D&D don't let them Sky rocket up 4 or 5 levels in a single secession Do not let them count ECL as half of there Gestalt This will lead to horrible pain and nightmares as the Psion Illithid half -Fiend will ruin your campaign. Do High Flying adventure Make it extreme as Possible. Have them fight salamanders over rivers of lava during a tornado. Swim threw acid while fighting Black Dragons Vampires all sorts of things make it big make powerful and make awe inspiring Do give more EXP for completion of Adventures. As it will be a good way to watch exp rewards Do not give out to much treasure This will send your game in to the 9 sector of the quasi stable Eye of Ilesensine located deep in the far realms Fallow most of these guild lines and you will have a very enjoyable game!
wonlee76 07-11-06, 05:07 PM	I've been playing in a gestalt campaign and testing out the PC's limits it seems that for purposes of fights they are basically +1 or +2 higher in level due to the number of options they have. So I set up encounters based on treating the party as if they were 1 or 2 levels higher then they really are. I usually treat most baddies as if they are CR -1 for purposes of XP calculation and determining the encounter level for a gestalt campaign. Its worked out well and I don't see too many problems with it.