DnD with no GP [Archive] - Wizards Community

DnD with no GP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pellanor
05-17-06, 04:10 PM I'm trying to make it so that having X gp by level Y is required in order to have a solid chance in combat. I want characters to rely more on their own skill rather then that of their gear.

This is what I'm thinking of doing in order to take care of this.

1. All characters get the bonuses of a Vow of Peace, with two exceptions.
1a. Characters do net get the bonus exhalted feats.
1b. Characters do not receive the exhalted armor bonus.
1c. Any character can take a Vow of Poverty, as either an Exhalted or a Vile feat. This grants the bonus (Exhalted or Vile) feats and (Exhalted or Profane) armor bonus.

2. All characters are Gestalt, with an Incarnum based class on one side, and whatever else they want on the other.
2a. Normal restrictions on only one PrC per level applies.
2b. Any Incarnum class that has dual progressions only advances meld shaping, and does not advance spellcasting.
2c. Any class that is dual progression, that does not include Meldshaping, is allowed.
2d. Incarnum classes do not count toward XP penalty.
2e. Fractional Attack Bonus and Saves will be used.

3. All characters receive an Item Familiar for free at first level.
3a. The normal requirement of a base value of 2000gp does not apply.

4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created.
4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal.
4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted.
4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally.

5. Money means nothing.
5a. Gold will only ever be used for stuff like buying fancy clothes, building a castle, bribing officials, etc...
5b. Magic items are not available for purchase, as most people can't afford the exp cost required to use them.
5c. Magic items can be acquired via trade, special services, and other RP methods.
5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here]

Anyways, those are my ideas, what do you think?

One issue I've got would be with artificers. I have no idea if this would nerf them or make them extremely powerful (you know, more so than they already are).
Verelor
05-17-06, 08:27 PM Well, those ideas seem a bit too extreme. You should try looking it to the d20 Modern Wealth system.

Because

The first one risks a world of unbalance
The second one is probably the least shoddy of the options, but that's going to be one strange world you're running there. If you're just fine with it, tho...
The third one....balance is unsure, but everyone in the world running around with a trusty item buddy??? That's just rediculous.
The fourth one. IF they can't be found or created, how do they exist?
The fifth one. Well, saying money means nothing is self-contradictory. If it has no economic power it is not currency at all. The b and c parts of it are just fine. But d is devoid of any belief suspension. When you produce a complex object, it will always require money and supplies.
Sinaz
05-17-06, 08:32 PM I'm trying to make it so that having X gp by level Y is required in order to have a solid chance in combat. I want characters to rely more on their own skill rather then that of their gear.

This is what I'm thinking of doing in order to take care of this.

...

4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created.
4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal.
4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted.
4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally.

So, what you're saying is that the game will only have limited use magic items in it? I mean, if a magic item cannot be found nor created, then it will never exist in the game, right?

5. Money means nothing.
5a. Gold will only ever be used for stuff like buying fancy clothes, building a castle, bribing officials, etc...
5b. Magic items are not available for purchase, as most people can't afford the exp cost required to use them.
5c. Magic items can be acquired via trade, special services, and other RP methods.
5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here]

Ok, again... so you're saying that money has no purpose other than to be used as a currency to buy things with...

That sounds pretty much like what gold is normally used for. What else do you usually use gold coins for in your adventures?

(Upon re-reading, I took more notice of the fact that no GP is required to craft a magic item. This seems flawed. The GP required to craft a magical item represents the characters investment in material and personal upkeep during the time and effort it takes to build an item. It's not as though the GP are some how magically infused into the item. It is spent on materials, tools, and personal sustenance. -at least that's how I've alwasy understood it.)

Those are my only two uh... questions.
Atirakis
05-17-06, 09:29 PM Ok I will let you know right off the bat that I am with you so far as your INTENT goes. I too desire a low magic game that relies more on character skills and abilities rather than powerful magical items. To do this yes you do need to give everyone a little AC boost. I recommend looking in Unearthed Arcana for their progressions on a per class basis. You also need to compensate for a lack in that extra oomph that magic weapons provide to a fighter types attacks. This can be done in a few ways. One would be to rule that fighter types deal double damage with all weapons or another one would be all fighter types gain a bonus to damage on each hit equal to all of their fighter type class levels or if thats broken than try 3/4 or even 1/2 their levels. The problem with just giving them all VoP is that the feat is just way too good to be an ok everybody has it kind of deal. Gestalt is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard of. Item familiar?????? Magic items cannot be found or created is fine as long as you keep it that way. If you give one character a magic amulet, be prepared to give everyone something and then your whole no magic theme is null and void. Money meaning nothing just doesnt work. PERIOD. You said it yourself that it would still be used for this and that, which means that it would be used for everything else too. Thats just the way it works. By limiting the AMOUNT of treasure available in a campaign you can ensure that your PCs wont be buying and selling kingdoms by the time they are 10th level, but you cant take gold and silver out of the game and therefor out of the PCs hands.
Gil Gwath
05-18-06, 11:11 AM A game that relies more on character skills and abilities rather than powerful magical items already exist.

Try Monte Cook's IRON HEROES.
Pellanor
05-18-06, 12:12 PM Thanks for the feedback.

One thing I plan on doing is running this system through a few mini-adventures of various levels in order to playtest it before I even consider using it in a real campaign.

Anyway, I think I should probably rename this to DnD without Magic Items rather than Without GP. That seems to be more of what I'm going for.

Well, time to go over some of the points people have made.

The first one risks a world of unbalance
...
The problem with just giving them all VoP is that the feat is just way too good to be an ok everybody has it kind of deal.While this does risk a lot of unbalance, I figure that since everybody will have it (NPCs included), it should even out. This should cover most of the abilities that magic items give (Stat boosts, AC Boosts, etc...) that are normally lacking in low-magic-gearmo campaigns.
Has anybody actually tried out something like this, or ran some numbers, or are you all just assuming that it will be unbalanced because its free VoP? (Not criticizing, just wondering. If you've already ran the numbers, that means I won't have to)

To do this yes you do need to give everyone a little AC boost.
You also need to compensate for a lack in that extra oomph that magic weapons provide to a fighter types attacks.I'm hoping that the VoP will take care of this one.

The second one is probably the least shoddy of the options, but that's going to be one strange world you're running there. If you're just fine with it, tho...
...
Gestalt is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard of.If you have something more constructive to say, please do so, but I really don't care if you think it's dumb.
I'm looking for Incarnum to provide skill boosts, and some of the funkier abilities from Magic Gearmo that VoP doesn't provide. Stuff like flying, short range teleportation, etc...
Since there will be few magic items, that should mean that more things get Chakra Bound.

The third one....balance is unsure, but everyone in the world running around with a trusty item buddy??? That's just rediculous.It's not going to be everybody running around with an item buddy, just the important people. I got this idea from watching Bleach, with the intelligent swords that everybody was armed with, and I thought it was pretty cool.
Once again, a strange world indeed.

Magic items cannot be found or created is fine as long as you keep it that way. If you give one character a magic amulet, be prepared to give everyone something and then your whole no magic theme is null and void.This is a good point. I do plan on not giving out magic gearmo.

The GP required to craft a magical item represents the characters investment in material and personal upkeep during the time and effort it takes to build an item. It's not as though the GP are some how magically infused into the item. It is spent on materials, tools, and personal sustenance. -at least that's how I've alwasy understood it.I plan on still requiring the base material component, just no extra cash to create an item. I envision Item Creation, in this world anyways, as taking an Item, and then infusing it with a portion of your life force. No fancy symbols or special gems required.
I may have to do a more complete write up of how I want magic items to work in this world, rather than this quick summary. That may make it a bit easier to find some flaws.

That sounds pretty much like what gold is normally used for. What else do you usually use gold coins for in your adventures?Buying magic Items, which is what I'm trying to avoid.

You should try looking it to the d20 Modern Wealth systemAny idea where I can find a quick summary of what this is?

Try Monte Cook's IRON HEROES.I'll take a look for it. Maybe I can DL a copy of the PDF and see if it's what I'm looking for or not. I don't really want to use a completely new system though, as I want to be able to still use as many of the DnD material I already own as possible.

Once again, thanks for the feedback. I'll probably try rolling up some characters with this system, and figure out just how unbalanced they are.

It's obvious that I'm going to have to tweak the Item Creation stuff, and look at wealth more. From what I remember about the d20 wealth system, it may work fairly well.

I'll post again once I've got more written up, or there are more responses.
Atirakis
05-18-06, 07:46 PM You keep confusing me will there or wont there be magic items? You keep saying there wont be but then discuss how they can go about "infusing" items. You can call it whatever you want, whether its magic, rune carving or infusing it still equals items that give you bonuses. Yes I have run the numbers on VoP and it DRAMATICALLY increases the CR of any given character. You need to worry about monsters not stacking up evenly with the parties level and them getting far more exp than they should be. Gestalt is not a good idea because you are taking away all the drawbacks from playing certain classes that are supposed to be weaker in some areas. Can you imagine a Barbarian/Sorceror? If you want to make them mulitclass in one of those classes go for it, but I am antigestalt. If you like more of a twinked campaign then its your game.
Verelor
05-18-06, 08:02 PM The d20 wealth system, very basic summary: all characters have a certain wealth modifier (it begins different for differing classes and background choices). Any object that is equal or lower to that modifier in value can be purchased without lowering your wealth score. However, items that are financially expensive, having a wealth modifier requirement of higher than the character possesses, require a wealth check. If the character succeeds on the wealth check, I believe his or her wealth modifier only decreases by -1. However, if the check is failed, you modifier is reduced by how much you failed the purchase DC by. It's a really great system, the only big weakness is that of wealthy characters repeatedly abusing their wealth midifier by purchasing tons of less valuable items. The system is d20 Modern standard.

Basically, I don't see why you're taking such extreme measures to run away from magic item use. it's fun. If magic exists, objects powered by it are sure to exist as well. Minimalize it, sure, but remove it?

I've got a good and simple solution: really make it more about the characters and less about their cool gizmos. Hand out a lot less magic items, but instead give them feats and ability score increases more often.
jagggar
05-19-06, 02:20 PM If the character succeeds on the wealth check, I believe his or her wealth modifier only decreases by -1. However, if the check is failed, you modifier is reduced by how much you failed the purchase DC by.The amount Wealth is reduced depends on the price of the item and on the difference between the price and the character's Wealth. If you fail the check you can't get the item and your wealth remains the same.

Here's a hypertext version of the Wealth system. (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Wealth.php)

4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created.
4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal.
4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted.
4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally.

5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here]Okay, so first you say they can't be created, then you explain the rule tweaks you have for their creation? Umm. . .?
Perhaps say "Permanent magic items" so people aren't confused when you say 'no magic items' and then say 'except for these'
And I'm lost, the creator spends XP, then the character using it spends XP? Example please?

I don't really know much about Incarnum and it's been quite a while since I've seen the benefits of VoP, but I kinda wonder if you'd need the benefits of VoP on top of the Incarnum gestalting (since it seems more like they're getting those abilities in addition to their normal class(es) rather than the normal gestalt).
starfire311
05-19-06, 02:33 PM Yes I have run the numbers on VoP and it DRAMATICALLY increases the CR of any given character.

You should run those numbers again... VoP is generally not worth the cost... IE VoP at level 20 is not worth 750k GP.
Solik
05-19-06, 04:53 PM Just one question.

Will your players honestly enjoy that?

Make sure the answer is Yes before you move forward.
Gilean
05-20-06, 10:47 AM Pellanor,
In addition to D20 wealth system, Donjon has an abstract system, too. It is a small-press game under creative commons, so I can send a .txt version to help in designing your system. PM your email and I'll send it to you.
Cainne
05-20-06, 12:22 PM Low magic world? Go for Monte Cooks Iron Heroes. Nicely packaged and has everything you could want for your campaign world!
Verelor
05-20-06, 07:55 PM Better packaged and also low on the priority of magic items, as well as being a d20 system game, which means the vast majority of your D&D content and house rules can be exported with no modification at all!

Btw, don't strike me down or anything, I am unsure for whether Iron Heroes is a d20 system game or not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pellanor 05-17-06, 04:10 PM	I'm trying to make it so that having X gp by level Y is required in order to have a solid chance in combat. I want characters to rely more on their own skill rather then that of their gear. This is what I'm thinking of doing in order to take care of this. 1. All characters get the bonuses of a Vow of Peace, with two exceptions. 1a. Characters do net get the bonus exhalted feats. 1b. Characters do not receive the exhalted armor bonus. 1c. Any character can take a Vow of Poverty, as either an Exhalted or a Vile feat. This grants the bonus (Exhalted or Vile) feats and (Exhalted or Profane) armor bonus. 2. All characters are Gestalt, with an Incarnum based class on one side, and whatever else they want on the other. 2a. Normal restrictions on only one PrC per level applies. 2b. Any Incarnum class that has dual progressions only advances meld shaping, and does not advance spellcasting. 2c. Any class that is dual progression, that does not include Meldshaping, is allowed. 2d. Incarnum classes do not count toward XP penalty. 2e. Fractional Attack Bonus and Saves will be used. 3. All characters receive an Item Familiar for free at first level. 3a. The normal requirement of a base value of 2000gp does not apply. 4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created. 4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal. 4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted. 4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally. 5. Money means nothing. 5a. Gold will only ever be used for stuff like buying fancy clothes, building a castle, bribing officials, etc... 5b. Magic items are not available for purchase, as most people can't afford the exp cost required to use them. 5c. Magic items can be acquired via trade, special services, and other RP methods. 5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here] Anyways, those are my ideas, what do you think? One issue I've got would be with artificers. I have no idea if this would nerf them or make them extremely powerful (you know, more so than they already are).
Verelor 05-17-06, 08:27 PM	Well, those ideas seem a bit too extreme. You should try looking it to the d20 Modern Wealth system. Because The first one risks a world of unbalance The second one is probably the least shoddy of the options, but that's going to be one strange world you're running there. If you're just fine with it, tho... The third one....balance is unsure, but everyone in the world running around with a trusty item buddy??? That's just rediculous. The fourth one. IF they can't be found or created, how do they exist? The fifth one. Well, saying money means nothing is self-contradictory. If it has no economic power it is not currency at all. The b and c parts of it are just fine. But d is devoid of any belief suspension. When you produce a complex object, it will always require money and supplies.
Sinaz 05-17-06, 08:32 PM	I'm trying to make it so that having X gp by level Y is required in order to have a solid chance in combat. I want characters to rely more on their own skill rather then that of their gear. This is what I'm thinking of doing in order to take care of this. ... 4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created. 4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal. 4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted. 4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally. So, what you're saying is that the game will only have limited use magic items in it? I mean, if a magic item cannot be found nor created, then it will never exist in the game, right? 5. Money means nothing. 5a. Gold will only ever be used for stuff like buying fancy clothes, building a castle, bribing officials, etc... 5b. Magic items are not available for purchase, as most people can't afford the exp cost required to use them. 5c. Magic items can be acquired via trade, special services, and other RP methods. 5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here] Ok, again... so you're saying that money has no purpose other than to be used as a currency to buy things with... That sounds pretty much like what gold is normally used for. What else do you usually use gold coins for in your adventures? (Upon re-reading, I took more notice of the fact that no GP is required to craft a magic item. This seems flawed. The GP required to craft a magical item represents the characters investment in material and personal upkeep during the time and effort it takes to build an item. It's not as though the GP are some how magically infused into the item. It is spent on materials, tools, and personal sustenance. -at least that's how I've alwasy understood it.) Those are my only two uh... questions.
Atirakis 05-17-06, 09:29 PM	Ok I will let you know right off the bat that I am with you so far as your INTENT goes. I too desire a low magic game that relies more on character skills and abilities rather than powerful magical items. To do this yes you do need to give everyone a little AC boost. I recommend looking in Unearthed Arcana for their progressions on a per class basis. You also need to compensate for a lack in that extra oomph that magic weapons provide to a fighter types attacks. This can be done in a few ways. One would be to rule that fighter types deal double damage with all weapons or another one would be all fighter types gain a bonus to damage on each hit equal to all of their fighter type class levels or if thats broken than try 3/4 or even 1/2 their levels. The problem with just giving them all VoP is that the feat is just way too good to be an ok everybody has it kind of deal. Gestalt is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard of. Item familiar?????? Magic items cannot be found or created is fine as long as you keep it that way. If you give one character a magic amulet, be prepared to give everyone something and then your whole no magic theme is null and void. Money meaning nothing just doesnt work. PERIOD. You said it yourself that it would still be used for this and that, which means that it would be used for everything else too. Thats just the way it works. By limiting the AMOUNT of treasure available in a campaign you can ensure that your PCs wont be buying and selling kingdoms by the time they are 10th level, but you cant take gold and silver out of the game and therefor out of the PCs hands.
Gil Gwath 05-18-06, 11:11 AM	A game that relies more on character skills and abilities rather than powerful magical items already exist. Try Monte Cook's IRON HEROES.
Pellanor 05-18-06, 12:12 PM	Thanks for the feedback. One thing I plan on doing is running this system through a few mini-adventures of various levels in order to playtest it before I even consider using it in a real campaign. Anyway, I think I should probably rename this to DnD without Magic Items rather than Without GP. That seems to be more of what I'm going for. Well, time to go over some of the points people have made. The first one risks a world of unbalance ... The problem with just giving them all VoP is that the feat is just way too good to be an ok everybody has it kind of deal.While this does risk a lot of unbalance, I figure that since everybody will have it (NPCs included), it should even out. This should cover most of the abilities that magic items give (Stat boosts, AC Boosts, etc...) that are normally lacking in low-magic-gearmo campaigns. Has anybody actually tried out something like this, or ran some numbers, or are you all just assuming that it will be unbalanced because its free VoP? (Not criticizing, just wondering. If you've already ran the numbers, that means I won't have to) To do this yes you do need to give everyone a little AC boost. You also need to compensate for a lack in that extra oomph that magic weapons provide to a fighter types attacks.I'm hoping that the VoP will take care of this one. The second one is probably the least shoddy of the options, but that's going to be one strange world you're running there. If you're just fine with it, tho... ... Gestalt is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard of.If you have something more constructive to say, please do so, but I really don't care if you think it's dumb. I'm looking for Incarnum to provide skill boosts, and some of the funkier abilities from Magic Gearmo that VoP doesn't provide. Stuff like flying, short range teleportation, etc... Since there will be few magic items, that should mean that more things get Chakra Bound. The third one....balance is unsure, but everyone in the world running around with a trusty item buddy??? That's just rediculous.It's not going to be everybody running around with an item buddy, just the important people. I got this idea from watching Bleach, with the intelligent swords that everybody was armed with, and I thought it was pretty cool. Once again, a strange world indeed. Magic items cannot be found or created is fine as long as you keep it that way. If you give one character a magic amulet, be prepared to give everyone something and then your whole no magic theme is null and void.This is a good point. I do plan on not giving out magic gearmo. The GP required to craft a magical item represents the characters investment in material and personal upkeep during the time and effort it takes to build an item. It's not as though the GP are some how magically infused into the item. It is spent on materials, tools, and personal sustenance. -at least that's how I've alwasy understood it.I plan on still requiring the base material component, just no extra cash to create an item. I envision Item Creation, in this world anyways, as taking an Item, and then infusing it with a portion of your life force. No fancy symbols or special gems required. I may have to do a more complete write up of how I want magic items to work in this world, rather than this quick summary. That may make it a bit easier to find some flaws. That sounds pretty much like what gold is normally used for. What else do you usually use gold coins for in your adventures?Buying magic Items, which is what I'm trying to avoid. You should try looking it to the d20 Modern Wealth systemAny idea where I can find a quick summary of what this is? Try Monte Cook's IRON HEROES.I'll take a look for it. Maybe I can DL a copy of the PDF and see if it's what I'm looking for or not. I don't really want to use a completely new system though, as I want to be able to still use as many of the DnD material I already own as possible. Once again, thanks for the feedback. I'll probably try rolling up some characters with this system, and figure out just how unbalanced they are. It's obvious that I'm going to have to tweak the Item Creation stuff, and look at wealth more. From what I remember about the d20 wealth system, it may work fairly well. I'll post again once I've got more written up, or there are more responses.
Atirakis 05-18-06, 07:46 PM	You keep confusing me will there or wont there be magic items? You keep saying there wont be but then discuss how they can go about "infusing" items. You can call it whatever you want, whether its magic, rune carving or infusing it still equals items that give you bonuses. Yes I have run the numbers on VoP and it DRAMATICALLY increases the CR of any given character. You need to worry about monsters not stacking up evenly with the parties level and them getting far more exp than they should be. Gestalt is not a good idea because you are taking away all the drawbacks from playing certain classes that are supposed to be weaker in some areas. Can you imagine a Barbarian/Sorceror? If you want to make them mulitclass in one of those classes go for it, but I am antigestalt. If you like more of a twinked campaign then its your game.
Verelor 05-18-06, 08:02 PM	The d20 wealth system, very basic summary: all characters have a certain wealth modifier (it begins different for differing classes and background choices). Any object that is equal or lower to that modifier in value can be purchased without lowering your wealth score. However, items that are financially expensive, having a wealth modifier requirement of higher than the character possesses, require a wealth check. If the character succeeds on the wealth check, I believe his or her wealth modifier only decreases by -1. However, if the check is failed, you modifier is reduced by how much you failed the purchase DC by. It's a really great system, the only big weakness is that of wealthy characters repeatedly abusing their wealth midifier by purchasing tons of less valuable items. The system is d20 Modern standard. Basically, I don't see why you're taking such extreme measures to run away from magic item use. it's fun. If magic exists, objects powered by it are sure to exist as well. Minimalize it, sure, but remove it? I've got a good and simple solution: really make it more about the characters and less about their cool gizmos. Hand out a lot less magic items, but instead give them feats and ability score increases more often.
jagggar 05-19-06, 02:20 PM	If the character succeeds on the wealth check, I believe his or her wealth modifier only decreases by -1. However, if the check is failed, you modifier is reduced by how much you failed the purchase DC by.The amount Wealth is reduced depends on the price of the item and on the difference between the price and the character's Wealth. If you fail the check you can't get the item and your wealth remains the same. Here's a hypertext version of the Wealth system. (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Wealth.php) 4. Magic Items cannot be Found or Created. 4a. An exception to this rule is limited use items (Scrolls, staffs, etc...) which can be crafted as per normal. 4b. Any creature wanting to use such an item must expend exp equal to that required to craft it in order for it to function. The Creator of the item can always use those items which he has crafted. 4c. A second exception is Wondrous Architecture, which can be crafted normally. 5d. When crafting magic items, no GP is required, only Exp. [note: I'm considering increasing the exp cost here]Okay, so first you say they can't be created, then you explain the rule tweaks you have for their creation? Umm. . .? Perhaps say "Permanent magic items" so people aren't confused when you say 'no magic items' and then say 'except for these' And I'm lost, the creator spends XP, then the character using it spends XP? Example please? I don't really know much about Incarnum and it's been quite a while since I've seen the benefits of VoP, but I kinda wonder if you'd need the benefits of VoP on top of the Incarnum gestalting (since it seems more like they're getting those abilities in addition to their normal class(es) rather than the normal gestalt).
starfire311 05-19-06, 02:33 PM	Yes I have run the numbers on VoP and it DRAMATICALLY increases the CR of any given character. You should run those numbers again... VoP is generally not worth the cost... IE VoP at level 20 is not worth 750k GP.
Solik 05-19-06, 04:53 PM	Just one question. Will your players honestly enjoy that? Make sure the answer is Yes before you move forward.
Gilean 05-20-06, 10:47 AM	Pellanor, In addition to D20 wealth system, Donjon has an abstract system, too. It is a small-press game under creative commons, so I can send a .txt version to help in designing your system. PM your email and I'll send it to you.
Cainne 05-20-06, 12:22 PM	Low magic world? Go for Monte Cooks Iron Heroes. Nicely packaged and has everything you could want for your campaign world!
Verelor 05-20-06, 07:55 PM	Better packaged and also low on the priority of magic items, as well as being a d20 system game, which means the vast majority of your D&D content and house rules can be exported with no modification at all! Btw, don't strike me down or anything, I am unsure for whether Iron Heroes is a d20 system game or not.