Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BarbeChenue 07-04-05, 10:52 PM	I'm juggling with the idea of integrating Level Adjustment Buyoff in my games but I don't know if it is a fair mechanic (see this link for the SRD page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). I'm a very rule-obsessed DM, I know it's one of my weak points, and I can't bear with the idea of adding a variant I don't perfectly trust, and I'm a little too "RAW"-dependant to modify it. That's why I'm asking for advice, especially because coming from a Video Game background, balance is extremely important for me and I'd like to hear from fellow players/DMs about what they think of the system. I have a side question though, and it's related to the primary question, those who know might help me there. Appart from losing caster levels, saves, hit points, BAB, skills and feats, what are the other consequences of being 1, 2, 3 or more levels behind the rest of your party? I'm thinking of spells like Blasphemy which ate through the monster characters in my last game (2 levels meant ~40 rounds of paralysis, more LAs and they could have all died!). How would LA Buyoffs help?
Elgonn 07-04-05, 10:57 PM	Yes and No. It can turn certain worthless and unscalar creatures from worthless to acceptable. It can also allow someone to say pick up a template for meaningless XP. There is no definitive answer. Note: LA Buyoff has virtually no affect on anything with an LA of 4+. If you include it in your game your only allowing things 3 and under in.
OracleYori 07-04-05, 11:08 PM	Yeah- getting some cool powers for relatively little xp is kinda nice, and you are behind most of the time, but dont feel left out once you get up in HD- i know from xp myself that playing something with a +2 LA you just kinda feel behind once your racial powers arent so cool because of magic items- being able to almost be the level is nice
RobertJ 07-05-05, 12:20 AM	As a player, I'm probably pretty unlikely to actually ever use LA buyoff. It's a good deal if you're planning out a level 20 character, say for the Optimization boards, but I think, given that most campaigns don't actually last to level 20 or beyond, LA buyoff is just a bad gamble.
Gilean 07-05-05, 07:38 AM	It is a bit less broken than standard LA, but only a bit. Avoid both.
lostone 07-05-05, 09:04 AM	I've had no problems with allowing LA Buyoff in my game. By the time all the LA is bought off from a +3 template the abilities gained from the template are mostly less important/useful and being used less frequently, so it is only fair to allow the character to be closer in level to the rest of the group.
Will Brandiman 07-05-05, 11:31 AM	We've been using it in our games and I think it works fine. Before this option we generally didn't use anything with more than a +1 LA and most of the time not even that. Now I'm finding that players are happy to experiment with higher LA races, which is making for an interesting game.
BarbeChenue 07-05-05, 02:16 PM	Thanks for the response everyone. I'd like to address the negative opinions on the system: Avoid both. And what if players like to play unusual creatures? ;) As a player, I'm probably pretty unlikely to actually ever use LA buyoff. It's a good deal if you're planning out a level 20 character, say for the Optimization boards, but I think, given that most campaigns don't actually last to level 20 or beyond, LA buyoff is just a bad gamble. Do you say that because of the Level Adjustments themselves, or because of the Buyoff method? For example, if you think Level Adjusted Races are not worth it, it's unlikely you would find Buyoff any use for you. :)
Elgonn 07-05-05, 02:23 PM	For example, if you think Level Adjusted Races are not worth it, it's unlikely you would find Buyoff any use for you. :) I think he means that if races with an LA don't compare to a standard non-LA race and that if you don't get high enough in level to actually use LA Buyoff it will inherently be of no use. Svirfneblin have never been worth 3 LA. SR, Better Dodge, Slightly improved stats will never make up for the normal gnome 3 levels higher. There isn't a point in starting to play someone that far behind if you know statistically you aren't going to be able to mitigate it.
BarbeChenue 07-05-05, 02:36 PM	I think he means that if races with an LA don't compare to a standard non-LA race and that if you don't get high enough in level to actually use LA Buyoff it will inherently be of no use. Svirfneblin have never been worth 3 LA. SR, Better Dodge, Slightly improved stats will never make up for the normal gnome 3 levels higher. There isn't a point in starting to play someone that far behind if you know statistically you aren't going to be able to mitigate it. I think you have an excellent example there. In my first question I was assuming that players would pick races that were already "relatively" balanced versus the LA +0 races. My question was more focused on if it was too powerful rather than the opposite. I personally don't fear playing/DMing LA'ed races such as Aasimar, Half-Giants, Goliaths and the kind. Even Ogres and Minotaurs feel like fairly nice options in my games. It's different for races that have more exotic benefits that makes them too strong in some situations but too weak in others, your example was talking about such a case. Against melee opponents SR won't do you any good if your HPs are low, but of course it's an entirely different matter against spellcasters (I don't recall the exact amount of SR svifneblins have, must be around CL + 15?). So I'll re-focus the question: Can LA Buyoff make "Level Adjusted" Races too strong versus non-"Level Adjusted" ones? :)
lostone 07-05-05, 02:54 PM	(I don't recall the exact amount of SR svifneblins have, must be around CL + 15?).IDHTBWM but I think it is something like 12 + class level.So I'll re-focus the question: Can LA Buyoff make "Level Adjusted" Races too strong versus non-"Level Adjusted" ones? :)I don't think so. It just gives more room and opportunity for optimization. So a cleverly designed character can be more powerful yes, but anything can be optimized to be more powerful. If the entire group of players is comprised of optimizers then there will be no problems.
Elgonn 07-05-05, 03:04 PM	So I'll re-focus the question: Can LA Buyoff make "Level Adjusted" Races too strong versus non-"Level Adjusted" ones? :) If a player is good at min/maxing it easily can be. Especially since "low" level creatures gain phantom bonus XP in a party.
spamfiltre 07-05-05, 04:19 PM	LA buyoff is important if you want your LA characters to keep up with non-LA characters. LA won't take into account non-optimized characters, so you need to be aware of your players' tendencies towards optimization. A Minotaur Fighter can take full advantage of the +6 STR, but a Minotaur Wizard probably doesn't have much use for it. At lower levels, racial abilities and stat increases compensate (in some cases, overcompensate) more for the lack of character levels than at higher levels, which is why LA buyoff works well to reduce the overall XP penalty at high levels.
shiffd 07-05-05, 06:51 PM	I see the point here. Level adjustments kinda F up the char. Here is an idea for making it work itself out- Consider the total benefits of the race. Usually you have the following things- Extra ability points Extra feats Extra abilities which can be compared to spells Extra HP Extra skills Sav throw bonuses etc. (thats the basic laundry list By taking a level adjustment you get screwed because you lose skills spells feats ability bonuses HP savings throw bonuses BAB etc. (OK maybe missed some, you get the picture) Anyway you almost never get a fair trade-off, like with Deep Gnome. I mean you get screwed really. So instead of taking a level adjustment. Trade in Feats, special abilities, skillpoints and ability increases for Racial abilities. Here are two examples. One for Drow Sorcerer. One for Deep Gnome Rogue. Deep Gnome- Racial bonuses +2 dex/wis. +2 search/Hide, spell rsist 11+lvl, +1 vs most humanoids, +4 Misc AC, Mirror image 1/day, Invis 1/day, blur 1/day, Nondetect, dark vision. Dis-4 cha, -2 strength, small weapons. 1st level, take as Rogue. Take no feats, this will be considered a fair purchase for the AC bonus. (since you AC bonus is partly justified by being small, and thus being restricted to small weapons, small damage) 2nd-9th Lose your next 3 Feats. They will puchase your 3 spelllike abilities. Trade in your 2 ability increases for your +11 spell risistance. Advance everything else (BAB, HP, Sneak attack, skills sav. throws) the same as a normal rogue. You are left with a few free abilities, but those are justified that as a non-human you get less skillpoints. This is because you must develop the skill of using your racial abilities, Dark vision, Nondetect & spell resistance (you lose a skill point every level, this could be seen as what feeds your increase in spell resistance). -anyway, this puts the Deep Gnome on even footing with other Rogues at every level (of experience). They will have same BAB, Saves etc. Basically you could do the same changes for any class for a Deep Gnome. You may see that it could be simply applied to any class with +3 lvl adj. Basically trade in all feats and ability increases up to 9th level. For +2 trade up to 6th level, for +1 trade in up to 3rd level. Case by case should be evaluated with DM help/approval. Heres another example for Drow- Drow adv.+2 dex/Int/Cha, +2 search, Spell rsist 11+ level, +2 will, +2 sav vs. enchantment. Immun to sleep, faerie fire 3/day. Feats large sword/bows. darkvision disadv. -2 con. Trade in all feats up to 9th level (thats 4, 5 if you count humans getting 2 at 1st, I say 4 cuz having all their abilities at 1st is an advantage for demihumans etc.) . The feats buy the faerie fire ability, weapon feats, darkvision & 1st 11 spell resist. Trade in 1st two ability score increases to offset the +2dex/int/cha they started with. Then less skill points justify the rest. Well here we see teh drow has more like a 2+adj, basically the same as Deep Gnome. IF you think about it the Drow has more advantages than the Deep Gnome, it is an err that drow was only +2 and the Deep gnome +3, should be other way around or both +3. Ovcourse that's only if hte DM is responsibly making the Gnome use small weaopns (which cause a lot less damage). I don't know maybe my idea is a bad one. I just don't think that level adjustments make sense. It just F's up the advancement of many characters. Throws off effective level etc. Better thisway to just have them trade some stuff in. Alternatively they can take their first couple levels as their race. A generic class of their race, where there are really no abilities gained, but typical advancement in skills and abilities of their race. At 5th-15th level (depending on the race) they can now 'specialize' and take a class to start advancing in. This requires a class build by the DM. I like to do it, so 1 new class build per campaign is workable, I'm not going to sit here and build a class for every race with a level adjustment though.
Elgonn 07-05-05, 07:13 PM	I don't know maybe my idea is a bad one. I just don't think that level adjustments make sense. It isn't horrible. But I think you'll find that it is more fun to be a level or so behind than it is to give up a huge percentage of your character's customization.
BarbeChenue 07-05-05, 08:57 PM	I agree with the above poster. Racial abilities shouldn't always be put in a class (like Dragon Disciple for example) or some similar structure, there should be space left for customization. Plus it's hard to make it "believable" to players that they don't get the same stats as the monster, feels like "emulating" one rather than simply "being" one. :)
Gilean 07-06-05, 03:34 AM	And what if players like to play unusual creatures?Use racial HD. Make variants (for example, let us use drow) with 0 LA. Here is mine (racial traits) +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. Medium size. An elf ’s base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus on will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. Darkvision 60 feet. Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, light crossbow, rapier, shortsword, and whip. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. Favored Class: Cleric for females and Wizard for males. Next make drow class (like in savage species if you have it, or like paragons in UA or d20srd.org) that grants all the remaining racial bonuses in a balanced fashion. Let players multiclass freely between monster class (which is always considered favored, so no XP penalties) and standard classes. The monster class needs to be good enough for players to actually consider taking it.
shiffd 07-06-05, 04:31 AM	It isn't horrible. But I think you'll find that it is more fun to be a level or so behind than it is to give up a huge percentage of your character's customization. Yes, that is exactly the trade-off. In order to balance the abilities gained through a special race you must lose something elsewhere. If you are 3 levels lower, then you are that many spells, fighter feats, feats, ability score bonuses etc. behind anyway. In anycase you are selecting the abilities of that particular race over some that you can get through your class. This is why making a class for the race might be better. You can give more options that way, have more customization. Anyway by giving up 4 feats or so the drow gains 3 levels. Thats 2 feats, bab, a buncha skill points, savings throws & HP for a fighter. 3 levels worth of spells (more known etc.) 1 feat, skills etc. for a mage. For Monks, Barbarians, Bards etc. that's 3 levels of class abilities, most of which have flexibility. I think its best for the fighter cuz they can gain back a lot of their feats quickly by having the extra 3 levels (fighter feats). And stuff. Just figure that by selecting a race that the character is already customized. Its like taking a human and customizing them with a package of feats associated with a race. Another possiblity is diversify the abilities available to the race and let teh characters pick and choose. This was possible in Skills and Powers when they used character points. That was a decent system but it was hard to balance sometimes.