Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ut-Napishtim 02-14-05, 03:31 AM	This weekend I ran an impromptu game where I started the players off at 5th level. It actually went over so well my players want me to make it a campaign. That's not really what I'm asking about though, just a little background info. One of the players wanted to take the three levels of the Elven Paragon class for his Wizard. In all honesty the class seemed rather powerful to me since it has 13 class skills, d8's for hit dice, and a handful of special abilities and a bonus feat. In the end I decided to say yes, because it had only one good save progression and the guy's character had a 7 Strength (using standard 4d6 from the rulebook, he just got unlucky). Since he decided to play a Grey Elf this put his Intelligence at 22. Then he asked if he could use the FR feat Spellcasting Prodigy (IIRC) that gives you another +2 to Intelligence for determining save DC's and bonus spells. I had to say no on that one since with an ability score increase at every four levels he could easily have a 24 Intelligence by 12th level, which would effectively be a 26 with this feat. Really with Elven Paragon class he's getting a whole lot of benefits and only losing one level of spells since they get a couple levels of spell progression as well. At the end of the day I have to say I think this class is a little bit overpowered, at least as far as playing an arcane spellcaster is concerned. I'm not particularly worried about it since it's going to be balanced out by his character's physical weakness, but I probably wouldn't have allowed it on a character with better stats. So does your group use them in the game you play/DM in, and why or why not?
Korimyr the Rat 02-14-05, 04:16 AM	I typically allow them, since I think they're a terrific concept-- a character who explores what it means to be a member of his race. I go further than this, though-- any Prestige Class which lists a race as a prerequisite instead requires three levels in that race's Paragon. That way, only the Elfiest Elves get to be Bladesingers, and a Half-Elf that wants to become a Bladesinger or an Arcane Archer has to choose to their Elven parentage over their Human side. I'm not currently allowing them, because I'm running a Gestalt game and I want to re-design them so that they'd take up both sides of the character's Gestalt progression. Basically, I'm looking to combine elements of both of the character's classes, and increase their power enough to be roughly equal to two base classes. Honestly, I think in a normal campaign, they're balanced just fine the way they are. Sure, they get the +2 ability at 3rd level, but they also sacrifice a spellcaster level, or other class abilities. It's fair. (In your example, I think your problem was more that you allowed a Grey Elf... but that's my own prejudice speaking.)
Ut-Napishtim 02-14-05, 04:34 AM	(In your example, I think your problem was more that you allowed a Grey Elf... but that's my own prejudice speaking.) That's an interesting perspective. The Grey Elves are from a core rulebook (MM), and have no LA. Of course the Drow are there too, but they have a LA. Even then I've never heard of someone running a game that didn't have Drow, and some even allow them as a PC race (I probably wouldn't though). I honestly don't see how allowing a balanced race from a core rulebook (+2 on two abilities, -2 on two abilities, with no LA) would be more unbalancing and problem-creating than an optional PrC from a supplemental rulebook. Now combining the two I could certainly agree is pretty much min/maxing for a high Intelligence, which is why I had to draw the line and give a big negative on the FR feat. If I had to choose though I'd have to say allowing a Grey Elf actually has much less game impact than the Elven Paragon class.
Elgonn 02-14-05, 05:04 AM	The paragon classes are great. I personally dislike that the drow paragon is dreadful considering it is supposed to be better than zero LA race ones but isn't. The grey elf isn't really a bad case. Losing that caster level will affect him and it is also like losing a feat if you prestige class out. Because you likely won't get the 5th level bonus wizard feat.
HailSpork 02-15-05, 07:42 PM	The Grey Elves are from a core rulebook (MM), and have no LA. Of course the Drow are there too, but they have a LA. Even then I've never heard of someone running a game that didn't have Drow I have run several campaigns of DnD, and I have never included Drow. I do not have any plans to ever include them, and they definately don't exist on any of my worlds. Grey Elves are intended as DM content with optional rules to adapt. Everything in UA is an optional rule. While the existence Grey Elves over an optional rule of UA can be seen as the more obvious perspective, Grey Elves as a player race is just as optional as anything in UA.
LaegolasGreenleaf 02-16-05, 02:21 AM	I play an elf in a friend's Forgotten Realms campaign and he's allowing us to take the Paragon classes. We're also playing gestalted characters as well so it should make things interesting.
Thelon Fairblade 02-16-05, 09:51 AM	I allow paragon classes in my campaign, but currently only NPCs have any such levels.
JMFD 02-18-05, 09:25 PM	I allow the racial paragons - I have 2 pcs with racial paragon levels in my current game. Has anyone seen any racial paragons for other races?
Korimyr the Rat 02-19-05, 12:51 AM	I've written a number of them-- covering the other Planetouched, some non-standard races, and the like. Unfortunately, they're designed around my House Rules and balanced for Gestalt use.