Doing Away With Favored Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Doing Away With Favored Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talcoram Cyndar
02-06-05, 06:22 PM I tried posting this in the Races forum with no luck, so I'll give it a try here...

I have been working on my own campaign world for a couple of years now, and with the recent addition of so many new base classes, I have been toying with the idea of doing away with racial favored classes to allow for the maximum amount of flexability in PC builds. I would appreciate your input on this from a balance and playability standpoint. Thank you in advance.

Favored Classes/Perfered Classes
All PC eligible races have a the ability to adopt a favored class based upon their adventuring profession.

Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs & Half(Human):
Favored Class- All
Human, half-elf and half-orc characters do not have to choose a favored class. All classes are considered favored to them and are thus able to multi-class without penalty. If a human, half-elf, or half-ork chooses to multi-class into more than two classes, then at least two of the classes must be within 2 levels of each other to aviod multi-clasing penalties.

All other PC Eligible Races:
Favored Class- Any
Characters of other races may select any one class at first level to be their favored class. From that point on, their favored class will not count toward multi-classing penalties. The favored class chosen at first level does not have to be the characters first class. (a Dwarf with Favored Class(cleric) could take his first level in Fighter) Once chosen however, a characters favored class may never be changed.

I have also been considering adding in the concept of a perfered class. A races' perefered class would be set and identical for all members of that race. If a PC chose their perfered class as their favored class, I was thinking about giving them a small reward. Perhaps +1 skill point per level to be used on class skills from their perfered class' skill list.

Alright, let me know what you think..

-TC
DaveTheMagicWeasel
02-07-05, 10:08 AM Doesn't look to me to be too unbalancing, but a simpler method might be to just house-rule that whatever class a player takes their first level in is their favoured class.
Knucklehead
02-07-05, 10:41 AM Your examples look reasonable. In our campaign we do as MagicWeasel suggests. In addition if you don't plan on taking a multi-class route, you can substitute your favored class for a favored feat. Instead of having a favored class, you instead take a feat appropriate to the race. A dwarf gets toughness, an elf gets magical aptitude, an human gets any skill related feat, etc. The trade off is that you do not have a favored class and can suffer multi-class penalties for any class combination.
jagggar
02-07-05, 10:43 AM Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs & Half(Human):
Favored Class- All
Human, half-elf and half-orc characters do not have to choose a favored class. All classes are considered favored to them and are thus able to multi-class without penalty. If a human, half-elf, or half-ork chooses to multi-class into more than two classes, then at least two of the classes must be within 2 levels of each other to aviod multi-clasing penalties.
I'd say just change the name of it from the PHB and use the description from there to avoid confusion. The standard "Highest level class does not count when determining penalties from multiclassing.

All other PC Eligible Races:
Favored Class- Any
Characters of other races may select any one class at first level to be their favored class. From that point on, their favored class will not count toward multi-classing penalties. The favored class chosen at first level does not have to be the characters first class. (a Dwarf with Favored Class(cleric) could take his first level in Fighter) Once chosen however, a characters favored class may never be changed. Sounds good to me. If you do have some setting defined roles for the different races in society, you could limit the selection of the favored class from that. (Perhaps dwarves do not use arcane magic, and therefore may not choose bard, sorcerer, or wizard as their favored class.)
And the benefit to letting them choose rather than Dave's suggestion (though it is simpler I must admit) is that a multiclass character that will have a bunch of wizard levels for example, but wants the d10 of the fighter class maximized can do so by being able to choose.

I have also been considering adding in the concept of a perfered class. A races' perefered class would be set and identical for all members of that race. If a PC chose their perfered class as their favored class, I was thinking about giving them a small reward. Perhaps +1 skill point per level to be used on class skills from their perfered class' skill list.
What would do with the humans, half-elves, and half-orcs in this set-up? The +1 skill point kinda takes away one of the benifits of being human. Perhaps an XP bonus of some sort. Dunno, have to think about it, but I got class.
Krelios
02-07-05, 11:00 AM Doesn't look to me to be too unbalancing, but a simpler method might be to just house-rule that whatever class a player takes their first level in is their favoured class.It sounds good, but that's the same as having no favored class--after all, humans and half-elves have favored class in whatever's the highest level. If you do adopt this, you'll have to give humans and half-elves something as well, since you're essentially taking their one benefit that is unique and giving it to all other races. Perhaps allow them to pick any one or two skills that are always considered "class skills" regardless of their actual class--whichever you think is appropriate for you campaign.
Talcoram Cyndar
02-07-05, 12:13 PM Thanks everyone for the feedback I appreciate it a great deal.

Jaggar-
What would do with the humans, half-elves, and half-orcs in this set-up? The +1 skill point kinda takes away one of the benifits of being human. Perhaps an XP bonus of some sort. Dunno, have to think about it, but I got class.

I was going to give humans, half-elves and half-orcs perfered classes as well.
Human: Cleric
Half-Elf: Ranger
Half-Orc: Barbarian

What do you think?

-TC
Xandore
02-09-05, 04:07 PM In my campaign most of the races I allow have 2 or 3 preferred classes. The actual preferred class is which ever of these classes is higher should they have more than one.

Humans - any
Dwarf, gray - rogue, savant
Dwarf, hill - fighter, scout
Dwarf, mountain - cleric, paladin
Elf, dark - sorcerer (male), witch (female), telepath (both)
Elf, gray - sorcerer, wizard
Elf, high - cleric, paladin
Elf, wild - spirit shaman, witch doctor
Elf, Wood - bard, druid, ranger

The races above is a partial list with preferred classes. A few of the classes listed are of my own making.
True Cavalier
02-09-05, 05:01 PM I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions.

Dwarven bard anyone? NO.
Nani?
02-09-05, 10:33 PM I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions.

Dwarven bard anyone? NO.

Gee, that's your right. But TC wants to know if his ideas are unbalanced. It's okay to dislike something (I dislike the million prestige classes, my co dm hates druids) from a Role Playing standpoint, but just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's broken. Say something constructive.

BTW, TC, I think your changes are fine, not unbalanced, realistic, and best of all simple and easy for players to understand.

All the Best,

Nani?
Nephlite
02-09-05, 10:42 PM I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions.

Dwarven bard anyone? NO.

What is wrong with the Dwarven Bard? Don't Dwarfs like music, don't Swarfs know Lore of and tales of places, and don't Dwarfs like to be good at skills without being a rogue.
How can you do this to Dwarfs!
Talcoram Cyndar
02-14-05, 05:51 PM Thanks alot everyone, really. I do appreciate it.
I think I will go with the proposed changes as they are currently written.

Later
-TC
Old Sparky
02-15-05, 11:25 PM Yeah, I've got no problem with dwarven bards. In fact, that's about the only way dwarves in my campaign are allowed to use arcane magic (as a core class)... and even with prestige classes that have minor arcane spellcasting with their own lists, I recommend (and follow this example with NPCs also) that any such dwarven casters actually have a divine sponsor and all their spells are divine in nature.

I refuse to let go of the old ways.... in which dwarves were innately resistant and overtly distrustful of arcane magics.

As far as the idea of favored classes and preferred classes: Well, I like to think of such things as background flavor. For example, if you meet a dwarf, you can expect him to be a fighter or cleric (or fighter/cleric) because that's what their race generally leans toward. However, exceptional individuals will not be limited to that.

I don't generally deal with favored class rules until we get into dealing with more than 2 core classes.
Korimyr the Rat
02-17-05, 03:15 AM In my games, characters taking levels in their Favored Class (well, Favored Gestalt, but that's another thread) gain an extra skill point per level. Races with FC: Any use their first level as their Favored Class. Prestige Classes are never Favored.

This, of course, stacks with the Human's bonus skill point, so a Human sticking to his Favored Class gains two extra skill points.
Dunelord
02-17-05, 03:55 AM I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions.

Dwarven bard anyone? NO.

I think the problem with the Bard class is the fluff to be honest. If you said you wanted a proud Dwarf Skald who kept a strong oral tradition of this people, and used his songs to inspire his brothers in arms to greater glory in battle that would be cool. BUT the class has a ton of stuff that just seems to come from no where. For exsample why do they have to wonder? Wouldn't a Bard be happy to stay in one place with a parton? Couldn't they be a historan who studys oral traditions? I know this is a bit off topic sorry.

Their is a feat in Unearthed Aranca that lets a chracter have an extra favored class, if that is on any help to ya.
Salla
02-17-05, 08:21 PM I haven't used Favored Classes or XP Penalties for Multiclassing since the first game I've ran, and I've never noticed any balance problems.
Chris_The_Guy
02-17-05, 09:48 PM To tell you the truth, I've never enforced multi-classing penalties for as long as 3rd edition came out. I actually kind of forgot they existed until I read this thread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talcoram Cyndar 02-06-05, 06:22 PM	I tried posting this in the Races forum with no luck, so I'll give it a try here... I have been working on my own campaign world for a couple of years now, and with the recent addition of so many new base classes, I have been toying with the idea of doing away with racial favored classes to allow for the maximum amount of flexability in PC builds. I would appreciate your input on this from a balance and playability standpoint. Thank you in advance. Favored Classes/Perfered Classes All PC eligible races have a the ability to adopt a favored class based upon their adventuring profession. Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs & Half(Human): Favored Class- All Human, half-elf and half-orc characters do not have to choose a favored class. All classes are considered favored to them and are thus able to multi-class without penalty. If a human, half-elf, or half-ork chooses to multi-class into more than two classes, then at least two of the classes must be within 2 levels of each other to aviod multi-clasing penalties. All other PC Eligible Races: Favored Class- Any Characters of other races may select any one class at first level to be their favored class. From that point on, their favored class will not count toward multi-classing penalties. The favored class chosen at first level does not have to be the characters first class. (a Dwarf with Favored Class(cleric) could take his first level in Fighter) Once chosen however, a characters favored class may never be changed. I have also been considering adding in the concept of a perfered class. A races' perefered class would be set and identical for all members of that race. If a PC chose their perfered class as their favored class, I was thinking about giving them a small reward. Perhaps +1 skill point per level to be used on class skills from their perfered class' skill list. Alright, let me know what you think.. -TC
DaveTheMagicWeasel 02-07-05, 10:08 AM	Doesn't look to me to be too unbalancing, but a simpler method might be to just house-rule that whatever class a player takes their first level in is their favoured class.
Knucklehead 02-07-05, 10:41 AM	Your examples look reasonable. In our campaign we do as MagicWeasel suggests. In addition if you don't plan on taking a multi-class route, you can substitute your favored class for a favored feat. Instead of having a favored class, you instead take a feat appropriate to the race. A dwarf gets toughness, an elf gets magical aptitude, an human gets any skill related feat, etc. The trade off is that you do not have a favored class and can suffer multi-class penalties for any class combination.
jagggar 02-07-05, 10:43 AM	Humans, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs & Half(Human): Favored Class- All Human, half-elf and half-orc characters do not have to choose a favored class. All classes are considered favored to them and are thus able to multi-class without penalty. If a human, half-elf, or half-ork chooses to multi-class into more than two classes, then at least two of the classes must be within 2 levels of each other to aviod multi-clasing penalties. I'd say just change the name of it from the PHB and use the description from there to avoid confusion. The standard "Highest level class does not count when determining penalties from multiclassing. All other PC Eligible Races: Favored Class- Any Characters of other races may select any one class at first level to be their favored class. From that point on, their favored class will not count toward multi-classing penalties. The favored class chosen at first level does not have to be the characters first class. (a Dwarf with Favored Class(cleric) could take his first level in Fighter) Once chosen however, a characters favored class may never be changed. Sounds good to me. If you do have some setting defined roles for the different races in society, you could limit the selection of the favored class from that. (Perhaps dwarves do not use arcane magic, and therefore may not choose bard, sorcerer, or wizard as their favored class.) And the benefit to letting them choose rather than Dave's suggestion (though it is simpler I must admit) is that a multiclass character that will have a bunch of wizard levels for example, but wants the d10 of the fighter class maximized can do so by being able to choose. I have also been considering adding in the concept of a perfered class. A races' perefered class would be set and identical for all members of that race. If a PC chose their perfered class as their favored class, I was thinking about giving them a small reward. Perhaps +1 skill point per level to be used on class skills from their perfered class' skill list. What would do with the humans, half-elves, and half-orcs in this set-up? The +1 skill point kinda takes away one of the benifits of being human. Perhaps an XP bonus of some sort. Dunno, have to think about it, but I got class.
Krelios 02-07-05, 11:00 AM	Doesn't look to me to be too unbalancing, but a simpler method might be to just house-rule that whatever class a player takes their first level in is their favoured class.It sounds good, but that's the same as having no favored class--after all, humans and half-elves have favored class in whatever's the highest level. If you do adopt this, you'll have to give humans and half-elves something as well, since you're essentially taking their one benefit that is unique and giving it to all other races. Perhaps allow them to pick any one or two skills that are always considered "class skills" regardless of their actual class--whichever you think is appropriate for you campaign.
Talcoram Cyndar 02-07-05, 12:13 PM	Thanks everyone for the feedback I appreciate it a great deal. Jaggar- What would do with the humans, half-elves, and half-orcs in this set-up? The +1 skill point kinda takes away one of the benifits of being human. Perhaps an XP bonus of some sort. Dunno, have to think about it, but I got class. I was going to give humans, half-elves and half-orcs perfered classes as well. Human: Cleric Half-Elf: Ranger Half-Orc: Barbarian What do you think? -TC
Xandore 02-09-05, 04:07 PM	In my campaign most of the races I allow have 2 or 3 preferred classes. The actual preferred class is which ever of these classes is higher should they have more than one. Humans - any Dwarf, gray - rogue, savant Dwarf, hill - fighter, scout Dwarf, mountain - cleric, paladin Elf, dark - sorcerer (male), witch (female), telepath (both) Elf, gray - sorcerer, wizard Elf, high - cleric, paladin Elf, wild - spirit shaman, witch doctor Elf, Wood - bard, druid, ranger The races above is a partial list with preferred classes. A few of the classes listed are of my own making.
True Cavalier 02-09-05, 05:01 PM	I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions. Dwarven bard anyone? NO.
Nani? 02-09-05, 10:33 PM	I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions. Dwarven bard anyone? NO. Gee, that's your right. But TC wants to know if his ideas are unbalanced. It's okay to dislike something (I dislike the million prestige classes, my co dm hates druids) from a Role Playing standpoint, but just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's broken. Say something constructive. BTW, TC, I think your changes are fine, not unbalanced, realistic, and best of all simple and easy for players to understand. All the Best, Nani?
Nephlite 02-09-05, 10:42 PM	I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions. Dwarven bard anyone? NO. What is wrong with the Dwarven Bard? Don't Dwarfs like music, don't Swarfs know Lore of and tales of places, and don't Dwarfs like to be good at skills without being a rogue. How can you do this to Dwarfs!
Talcoram Cyndar 02-14-05, 05:51 PM	Thanks alot everyone, really. I do appreciate it. I think I will go with the proposed changes as they are currently written. Later -TC
Old Sparky 02-15-05, 11:25 PM	Yeah, I've got no problem with dwarven bards. In fact, that's about the only way dwarves in my campaign are allowed to use arcane magic (as a core class)... and even with prestige classes that have minor arcane spellcasting with their own lists, I recommend (and follow this example with NPCs also) that any such dwarven casters actually have a divine sponsor and all their spells are divine in nature. I refuse to let go of the old ways.... in which dwarves were innately resistant and overtly distrustful of arcane magics. As far as the idea of favored classes and preferred classes: Well, I like to think of such things as background flavor. For example, if you meet a dwarf, you can expect him to be a fighter or cleric (or fighter/cleric) because that's what their race generally leans toward. However, exceptional individuals will not be limited to that. I don't generally deal with favored class rules until we get into dealing with more than 2 core classes.
Korimyr the Rat 02-17-05, 03:15 AM	In my games, characters taking levels in their Favored Class (well, Favored Gestalt, but that's another thread) gain an extra skill point per level. Races with FC: Any use their first level as their Favored Class. Prestige Classes are never Favored. This, of course, stacks with the Human's bonus skill point, so a Human sticking to his Favored Class gains two extra skill points.
Dunelord 02-17-05, 03:55 AM	I hate flexibility in PC classes. I am using favored classes AND racial class restrictions. Dwarven bard anyone? NO. I think the problem with the Bard class is the fluff to be honest. If you said you wanted a proud Dwarf Skald who kept a strong oral tradition of this people, and used his songs to inspire his brothers in arms to greater glory in battle that would be cool. BUT the class has a ton of stuff that just seems to come from no where. For exsample why do they have to wonder? Wouldn't a Bard be happy to stay in one place with a parton? Couldn't they be a historan who studys oral traditions? I know this is a bit off topic sorry. Their is a feat in Unearthed Aranca that lets a chracter have an extra favored class, if that is on any help to ya.
Salla 02-17-05, 08:21 PM	I haven't used Favored Classes or XP Penalties for Multiclassing since the first game I've ran, and I've never noticed any balance problems.
Chris_The_Guy 02-17-05, 09:48 PM	To tell you the truth, I've never enforced multi-classing penalties for as long as 3rd edition came out. I actually kind of forgot they existed until I read this thread.