Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Judgeohno 05-11-04, 12:55 PM	Hello, Got a quick question for buying off ECL. Got a Hobgoblin and an Aasimar in my groups party. Both are ECL+1. Now if I read it right(probably haven`t), at 3,000xp they will be 2nd level. When they get another 3,000xp that will take they to 3rd level. They then buy off there ECL +1 and become 3rd with only 3,000 and progress normally. So as they both effectively start with 1000xp because of ECL+1, they only pay 2,000xp in real terms, for in the case of the Hobgoblin +2dex and +2con and other bonuses. Sounds like a bargain to me. Please shine some light if I have erred. Many Thanks Judgeohno
Krothos 05-11-04, 03:25 PM	What seems to be working be me & my player (using a half-ogre ECL +1) is that he is considered 1 level higher than he actually is in terms of XP and levels. When the party reached 2nd level (1,500 XP), he remained at 1st level. He can gain his next level when he gets 3,000 XP. Thus, for the remainder of the character's life, he will always be 1 level behind the party. I've done this because of the "buy off" rules don't make much sense to me, because it takes more XP to advance high levels. "Let's see, I just gain my 8th level. Oh yeah! I going to spend/burn/lose 1,500 XP to 'buy off' that ECL. Now I'm 9th level with the rest of the party!" :smirk: :sad: I DON'T THINK SO!!! :sad: Just my way of thinking. :D
ArchonXVI 05-13-04, 12:52 AM	While it may be somewhat flawed, it is the only solution that I have found to work. Because the power you gain per level goes up at an exponential rate, what seems like a great deal at 1st level becomes a major penalty at later levels. UA at least seems to be able to fix that problem to a degree.
Judgeohno 05-13-04, 03:30 AM	Thanks guys. Your right ArchonXVI, it does become a huge weight to carry at high levels. Imagine though if you were a human cleric or paladin at say 3rd-5th level and for 2,000xp you get +2wis,+2cha,+2listen(+3with wis bonus)same for spot, darkvision,all those lovely 5points resistances. You`d take it in a trice. Many thanks to ArchonXVI and Krothos for both of you views. Have a great summer. Judgeohno
Hygric 05-13-04, 08:41 AM	They will be 3,000 XP behind. I don't know where you got the free 1,000 xp from, unless you let them start at 2nd level while everyone else in the party started at 1st. As for not much cost, well, it costs only 640 XP to make an unsloted item that gives a +2 bonus to dex and con. If I was the hobgoblin, I would feel ripped off. The aasimar will fair a little better, but still will be behind a wizard or cleric that made some toys for himself.
Judgeohno 05-13-04, 09:53 AM	I got the 1,000xp because at 1st level the aasimar or hobgoblin with an ecl+1 effective starts at that and needs a total of 3,000xp to reach 2nd level. Good point about the goodies that can be fashioned, but also you can do both. Aasimar with max wis or cha then with racial adjustment and the with the periapt ot cloak to help. scores easily 22. Is that what they call min-maxing? Please tell if I`ve got it wrong. Thanks guys and girls
Veton 05-13-04, 10:54 AM	Originally posted by Judgeohno Please shine some light if I have erred. You did - just a little bit. In order to buy off a +1 LA adjustment, the character has to have 3 class level. His LA doesn't count towards the levels needed to buy it off (and neither do racial hit die for that matter).
Judgeohno 05-13-04, 11:15 AM	That I get, that he need 3 levels not including his/her ecl+1. So In total he would need to reach 6,000xp in grand total to hit 3rd level. Then pay off the 3,000xp, this will lose the ecl+1 and he will then drop 3,000xp and proceed onwards while the rest of the party are 4th level with 6,000xp. Gone on, tell me I`ve boo-booed again, I can take it. We learn by our mistakes................................ ................................ I`ve learnt a hell of a lot.
Hygric 05-14-04, 10:17 PM	Your numbers work out fine. Indeed, they need 6000 xp to be 4th level (3 class levels and 1 level adjustment), pay the 3000 xp, drop to 3rd level (3 class levels with no level adjustment) and proceed from there. Those 3000 xp will make a big difference at lowish levels, but gradualy fade away at higher levels until they make little real difference. Just like the Hobgoblin's stat bounses will gradually fade away in real effect over time. And that 3,000 xp is effectively 75,000 gp worth of toys that a spell-caster can make, a not-inconsiderate amount at any pre-epic levels. I have seen a drow PC go from about 20th level to 35th level (in 3e, from 1st level in 2e) and her +2 LA worth gradually petered out and became meaningless. Spell res? Oh, I bought an epic mantle of spell res with my pocket change. Stats? Oh, I bought a set of all stat books +5 at Union. Spell like abilities? Please, I'm an arch-mage, you expect me to be impressed with darkness once per day? LA is best faded away as a character gains levels. This system is the first atempt I have seen from Wizards to fix it.
Boberto 05-19-04, 06:18 PM	So, to drop one LA, you can do it every 3 class levels. What is the cost formula? Class level x 1,000 xp?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-19-04, 11:47 PM	So, to drop one LA, you can do it every 3 class levels. What is the cost formula? Class level x 1,000 xp? I find reading the book works a lot better than trying to incorrectly piece it together from board-banter
Perun 05-20-04, 03:30 AM	Since it *IS* UA, and therefore OGC (or whatever it's called... it's okay to post bits and pieces)... The formula to determine class level at which you can buy 1 off your total LA is: LA x 3. When you reach this level (3rd for +1 LA races, 6th for +2 LA, 9th for +3 LA, etc.) you have to spend (ECL-1) x 1,000 XP (remember that ECL is class levels + LA). In all likelyhood, you also "loose" a level; that is, you'll be 2nd class level. At this point, your LA drops by one (i.e. it's gone if you were a +1 LA race). If you still have a LA modifier, repeat the process. For example, if you were playing a drow, your initial LA is +2. As soon as you get enough XP to reach reach 3rd class level (ECL 5, or 10,000 XP in this case) you spend 3,000 XP, you lose a level and your LA drops to +1. Your next buy-off point :) is at 6th level (your new LA x 3, and you add that to the last level you bought your level off), and you'll be paying 6,000 XP. After that, you are a +0 LA drow. With LA +4 and higher, you won't be able to reduce your LA to +0 till epic levels. LA +3 races can buy their LA off at 9th, 15th, and 18th level. LA +4 races buy LA off at levels 12, 21, 27, and 30. I've been playing a tiefling wizard for some time now. He's 5th-level now, and the rest of the party is 6th level. Since I actually earn more XP per encounter than the rest of the party (because of the level difference), I've managed to reduce the initial 3,000 XP difference (the XP I used to buy my LA off) to about half of that, meaning my XP total is about 1,500 XP lower than that of the other party members. I found the LA buy-off rules to be pretty good. When the "power" the character has because of the special racial abilities and qualities plays a role, he's a level (or more, dpeneding on his LA) behind. As the said power becomes less and less important, he slowly catches up with other party members. That way he won't be penalised at higher levels, where the reasons for his LA are utterly insignifficant.
Boberto 05-20-04, 01:38 PM	Cool, thanks. :D I think I got it. But either way I'm going to buy UA this weekend. :D