ECL Reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL Reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lordxoi
02-17-04, 01:37 AM Could someone explain how it would work for a ECl+4 char? The book explained the +1 and +2 pretty well, but to me it gets a little odd at +3 and up
Perun
02-17-04, 02:05 AM Originally posted by lordxoi
Could someone explain how it would work for a ECl+4 char? The book explained the +1 and +2 pretty well, but to me it gets a little odd at +3 and up

The way I understand it: with LA +4 character, you get your first opportunity to buy off your LA at 12th character level (LA ž 3) (ECL 16), and you have to pay 15,000 XP ([ECL - 1] ž 1,000). (Note that ECL equals your character level plus your LA.)

Now, your LA is +3. You've got to earn nine (your new LA times 3) additional levels before you can buy off another level off your LA (meaning you have to go into epic levels).
So, at 21st character level (ECL 24), you would have to pay 23,000 XP, and you'r LA would drop to +2.

Then again, after six more levels (new LA ž 3), i.e. at level 27 (ECL 29), you'd be paying 28,000 XP (the same formula, ([ECL - 1] ž 1000), and your LA would get reduced to +1.

Finally, at 30th character level (after you earned three times your new LA in levels, i.e. 3 levels), you would pay another 29,000 XP, and as a result your LA woud drop to +0, or, in other words, it would dissappear.

With a LA +3 race, it'd look like:
- at 9th character level (ECL 12) pay 11,000 XP; LA drops to +2
- at 15th character level (ECL 17) pay 16,000 XP; LA drops to +1
- at 18th character level (ECL 19) pay 18,000 XP; LA is gone.

Hope this helps.
franzel
02-18-04, 06:10 PM And, to be clear, the payoff for LA +3 and up is verrrrry long-term.

For LA +1, the payoff is at level 7.

For LA +2, the payoff is at level 16.

For LA +3, the payoff is at level 30.

For LA +4, the payoff is at level 47.

For LA +5, the payoff is at level 69.
cdmonish
02-18-04, 06:45 PM While I wait for my book, could someone explain how it might work for a Gloure (Underdark).

The creature has 7HD (i.e. character level) and a +2LA. would the character wait until 13HD? Bascially, my question would be how do starting HD affect the equation (i.e. does the equation assume a 1HD + ?LA character).

Thanks for any input.
Buddha the DM
02-18-04, 06:56 PM Originally posted by franzel
And, to be clear, the payoff for LA +3 and up is verrrrry long-term.

For LA +1, the payoff is at level 7.

For LA +2, the payoff is at level 16.

For LA +3, the payoff is at level 30.

For LA +4, the payoff is at level 47.

For LA +5, the payoff is at level 69.

This doesn't seem quite right...
franzel
02-18-04, 06:58 PM Actually, the way the rule reads, you can only do it once you start gaining class levels. However, you can make the argument that you can reduce after you reach the requisite total character level necessary.

For your Gloure, he would have to be character level 13 (ECL 15) to make the first reduction, which would cost 14,000. Then at character level 16 (ECL 17), he would pay another 16,000. Then, once he reached character level 30, he would be +1,000.

If you never expect to play epic, then it isn't worth reducing the LA of a Gloure at all.

franzel
franzel
02-18-04, 07:38 PM Originally posted by Buddha the DM
This doesn't seem quite right...

Unless I've completely mis-read the chapter and done the math all wrong (in Excel no less), then it's correct. But it could easily be wrong. Let's take an example

Assuming you have an LA of +6 and no HD:

To reduce LA +6 to +5, you have to wait until your 18th character level. That reduction costs 23,000 (ECL 24 - 1 * 1000). To make that back will take 23 levels, since you've paid out 23,000 but each level will now be 1,000 cheaper to take. That's 41st level.

However, if you want to pay down from +5 to +4, you have to do that at 33rd character level. That will cost 37,000 XP. You might think that would take you to 70th level, but of course, you're already making back 1,000 from the previous adjustment, and now you're making back 2,000. You've already gained back 15,000 from the previous adjustment, and you only have paid out 60,000 total, so to make back 45,000 off of 2,000 will take another 23 levels, or 56th character level.

Then to go from +4 to +3 will cost 48,000 (33+12+4-1). By the previous math, you're looking at total payout of 108,000 so far but you've made back 39,000 (1*15+2*12), so you only need to make 69,000 on 3,000 or level 68.

To go from +3 to +2 will cost 56,000 (45+9+3-1). Therefore, total cost of 164,000 but you've made back 66,000, so it's only going to cost another 98,000 on 4,000 per. Or level 79.

You can see where the math is going on this. For +2 to +1 you'll pay off at level 85.

For +1 to +0, you'll be paid off at level 88.

Hrm...that's a lot more than 69 isn't it?

I'll do some more number crunching later.

Regardless, it isn't very efficient for high LA's. And it's even less efficient for monsters with HD.

franzel
cdmonish
02-18-04, 11:07 PM Franzel,

Thanks for the breakdown. It might be a little better if one could include monster HD. It seems like it is best suited for those humans/standard races who add a half-dragon or insectile template or for those individuals who play drow, half-ogres, deep gnomes, etc.

I'm not sure how you've got the program set up in Excel, but I'm wondering if there is some point where a reduction in the required class levels when compared with a higher LA would yield roughly the same XP cost (i.e. at +8 to +15 LA reduce at 2*LA, for +15 reduce at 1*LA. BTW, I just drew these numbers from the air). Again, it wouldn't make a difference except for those who don't play Epic, but now I'm curious.

When I first heard of the contents of UA, I had thought you could just drop +1LA for every three class levels (not class levels=3*LA). This actually works better for the high LA races. Over the course of ECL20, the Ogre Mage was able to work off +2 and almost +3 (which brought him into a more respectable LA than the ridiculously high +7). I'm not sure how gamebreaking this variant might be.
franzel
02-19-04, 06:32 AM Alright, I'll admit it. I'm an idiot. And I can't do math. :)

I don't know why I was complicating matters as much as I was. The fact is that it is _always_ worth paying down LA as soon as possible, since you don't ever _lose_ anything. The only time you ever lose out is if you were just shy of the level where you could pay down the LA, but then got so much XP that it put you almost to the next level. This is a very unusual circumstance.

Basically, if you have +1 LA and you pay down at character level 3 (ECL 4) then you pay 3,000 XP once and now you're still CL 3 but you have 3,000 XP less than your party members but without an LA. Therefore, you will be permanently 3,000 XP behind (boo hoo) but have the abilities of the +1 LA. So, at 10th level for the party, you'll be just shy of 10th or at 10th yourself.

Now, I'm the first to admit that the Aasimar +1 LA is VERY weak. Much weaker than a class level. But is it worth 3,000 XP? That's the equivalent of 75,000 GP worth of magic items. Would those magic items be worth more than +2 WIS and +3 to three energy resistances? Hunh. Probably.

With +2 LA it's a little trickier. Here you get into races that actually are good, e.g. a Drow. However, it will cost a Drow 16,000 XP to pay off the LA. Would I pay 16,000 XP to get SR? Here, I probably would so I'm not sure it's fair to let a Drow pay down the LA.

Basically, WotC is saying that LA, while affecting a character's ECL for purposes of XP and party-strength, aren't as good as class levels or HD (which, in general, I agree with). Therefore, they are allowing the character to simply put up XP as opposed to losing permanent levels. This is not a bad idea, in theory, but you do have to take into account that some LA's are better than others.

franzel
cdmonish
02-19-04, 01:17 PM Frenzel,

Your exactly right, when it comes to paying off LA. As soon as possible. If you made the equation continuous (i.e. a never ending campaign), the idea is eventually all differences between normal characters and any character with an LA would be negligible or moot.

The differences are dramatic in ability early on but fade with time. Sort of like the difference between 1/10 raised to the 50th power and 1/10 raised to the 100th power (it's there, but is hardly noticeable. Disclaimer: Before someone argues about the effect a difference of that size can make in physics on a sub-atomic level, I'm considering the common math applications)
franzel
02-19-04, 01:57 PM I don't know that the differences fade over time. For some LA's they do and for some they don't. Let's take some typical LA's shall we?

Aasimar: +1 LA. Cost: 3,000 XP. This is tough, but handsome. I mean, fair.

Drow: +2 LA. Cost: 16,000 XP. I would pay 16,000 XP for 12+CL SR. This may be too good.

Svirfneblin: +3 LA. Cost: 45,000 XP. Hrm. Is the Svirfneblin saving throw bonuses worth 29,000 XP over the Drow? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Half-celestial: +4 LA. Cost: 96,000 XP. Well, now we're talking. To even make back a level at that cost will take you well into epic. At 31st level, your equivalent XP party member will be at 34th level.

The fact is that not all level adjustments were created equal and the DM needs to decide what a fair XP cost for the LA is, assuming there is one. I would say the Drow should be bumped up to over 20,000 XP at least, and then you could figure out when the payments can be made. Anything that has an LA but has character level-based powers stays relevant over time, e.g. Drow's SR and therefore should be paid continuously. Otherwise, it's not as big a deal.

franzel
Alratan
02-19-04, 03:03 PM I think I'd prefer to have the 400,000 gp of magic items myself - in almost any campaign it woudl be more effective to buy a spell resistance item.
The Livewire
02-19-04, 06:13 PM My only confusion on it is level drain. If My aasimar has paid his level adjustment 'fee' then drops from second to first level due to Mr Wraith or Mr Death and raise dead, does the LA come back?

:angel:
Myztek
02-19-04, 07:21 PM The final pay off for a given LA is at class level: (LA factorial) X 3.

So an Astral Deva (LA 8, HD 12) can buy off one level of LA at ECL 44 (Character level 24), a second at ECL 64 (Character level 45), a third at ECL 81 (Character level 63), a fourth at ECL 95 (character level 78), a fifth at ECL 106 (character level 90), a sixth at ECL 114 (character level 99), a seventh at ECL 119 (character level 105) and the last one at ECL 121 (character level 108) - dang - my math is off by one in there somewhere ... but you get the idea.
Buddha the DM
02-19-04, 07:40 PM Ok now I'm just royally lost on this concept..
ShadowRanger
02-19-04, 08:11 PM character level includes monster hit dice to let you know, accroding to the 3.5 faq
Character Level: The total number of classes you have in all of your class levels, plus any racial hit dice.
Buddha the DM
02-19-04, 10:42 PM I understand the concept of Character Level, but I am almost completely baffled by the whole concept of ECL reduction.
cdmonish
02-20-04, 10:55 AM Myztek, Is it the Factorial or the Sigma (i.e. sum of 3x, from x=1 to x=8)?

Statistics was more than a few years ago but I thought the factorial of 8 = 8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 40320.

The system still seems lacking for anything over LA+4 or campaigns that end in the 10th-12th level range. I think I'm going to stick to -1LA for every three class levels (not class levels * current LA).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lordxoi 02-17-04, 01:37 AM	Could someone explain how it would work for a ECl+4 char? The book explained the +1 and +2 pretty well, but to me it gets a little odd at +3 and up
Perun 02-17-04, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by lordxoi Could someone explain how it would work for a ECl+4 char? The book explained the +1 and +2 pretty well, but to me it gets a little odd at +3 and up The way I understand it: with LA +4 character, you get your first opportunity to buy off your LA at 12th character level (LA ž 3) (ECL 16), and you have to pay 15,000 XP ([ECL - 1] ž 1,000). (Note that ECL equals your character level plus your LA.) Now, your LA is +3. You've got to earn nine (your new LA times 3) additional levels before you can buy off another level off your LA (meaning you have to go into epic levels). So, at 21st character level (ECL 24), you would have to pay 23,000 XP, and you'r LA would drop to +2. Then again, after six more levels (new LA ž 3), i.e. at level 27 (ECL 29), you'd be paying 28,000 XP (the same formula, ([ECL - 1] ž 1000), and your LA would get reduced to +1. Finally, at 30th character level (after you earned three times your new LA in levels, i.e. 3 levels), you would pay another 29,000 XP, and as a result your LA woud drop to +0, or, in other words, it would dissappear. With a LA +3 race, it'd look like: - at 9th character level (ECL 12) pay 11,000 XP; LA drops to +2 - at 15th character level (ECL 17) pay 16,000 XP; LA drops to +1 - at 18th character level (ECL 19) pay 18,000 XP; LA is gone. Hope this helps.
franzel 02-18-04, 06:10 PM	And, to be clear, the payoff for LA +3 and up is verrrrry long-term. For LA +1, the payoff is at level 7. For LA +2, the payoff is at level 16. For LA +3, the payoff is at level 30. For LA +4, the payoff is at level 47. For LA +5, the payoff is at level 69.
cdmonish 02-18-04, 06:45 PM	While I wait for my book, could someone explain how it might work for a Gloure (Underdark). The creature has 7HD (i.e. character level) and a +2LA. would the character wait until 13HD? Bascially, my question would be how do starting HD affect the equation (i.e. does the equation assume a 1HD + ?LA character). Thanks for any input.
Buddha the DM 02-18-04, 06:56 PM	Originally posted by franzel And, to be clear, the payoff for LA +3 and up is verrrrry long-term. For LA +1, the payoff is at level 7. For LA +2, the payoff is at level 16. For LA +3, the payoff is at level 30. For LA +4, the payoff is at level 47. For LA +5, the payoff is at level 69. This doesn't seem quite right...
franzel 02-18-04, 06:58 PM	Actually, the way the rule reads, you can only do it once you start gaining class levels. However, you can make the argument that you can reduce after you reach the requisite total character level necessary. For your Gloure, he would have to be character level 13 (ECL 15) to make the first reduction, which would cost 14,000. Then at character level 16 (ECL 17), he would pay another 16,000. Then, once he reached character level 30, he would be +1,000. If you never expect to play epic, then it isn't worth reducing the LA of a Gloure at all. franzel
franzel 02-18-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Buddha the DM This doesn't seem quite right... Unless I've completely mis-read the chapter and done the math all wrong (in Excel no less), then it's correct. But it could easily be wrong. Let's take an example Assuming you have an LA of +6 and no HD: To reduce LA +6 to +5, you have to wait until your 18th character level. That reduction costs 23,000 (ECL 24 - 1 * 1000). To make that back will take 23 levels, since you've paid out 23,000 but each level will now be 1,000 cheaper to take. That's 41st level. However, if you want to pay down from +5 to +4, you have to do that at 33rd character level. That will cost 37,000 XP. You might think that would take you to 70th level, but of course, you're already making back 1,000 from the previous adjustment, and now you're making back 2,000. You've already gained back 15,000 from the previous adjustment, and you only have paid out 60,000 total, so to make back 45,000 off of 2,000 will take another 23 levels, or 56th character level. Then to go from +4 to +3 will cost 48,000 (33+12+4-1). By the previous math, you're looking at total payout of 108,000 so far but you've made back 39,000 (115+212), so you only need to make 69,000 on 3,000 or level 68. To go from +3 to +2 will cost 56,000 (45+9+3-1). Therefore, total cost of 164,000 but you've made back 66,000, so it's only going to cost another 98,000 on 4,000 per. Or level 79. You can see where the math is going on this. For +2 to +1 you'll pay off at level 85. For +1 to +0, you'll be paid off at level 88. Hrm...that's a lot more than 69 isn't it? I'll do some more number crunching later. Regardless, it isn't very efficient for high LA's. And it's even less efficient for monsters with HD. franzel
cdmonish 02-18-04, 11:07 PM	Franzel, Thanks for the breakdown. It might be a little better if one could include monster HD. It seems like it is best suited for those humans/standard races who add a half-dragon or insectile template or for those individuals who play drow, half-ogres, deep gnomes, etc. I'm not sure how you've got the program set up in Excel, but I'm wondering if there is some point where a reduction in the required class levels when compared with a higher LA would yield roughly the same XP cost (i.e. at +8 to +15 LA reduce at 2LA, for +15 reduce at 1LA. BTW, I just drew these numbers from the air). Again, it wouldn't make a difference except for those who don't play Epic, but now I'm curious. When I first heard of the contents of UA, I had thought you could just drop +1LA for every three class levels (not class levels=3*LA). This actually works better for the high LA races. Over the course of ECL20, the Ogre Mage was able to work off +2 and almost +3 (which brought him into a more respectable LA than the ridiculously high +7). I'm not sure how gamebreaking this variant might be.
franzel 02-19-04, 06:32 AM	Alright, I'll admit it. I'm an idiot. And I can't do math. :) I don't know why I was complicating matters as much as I was. The fact is that it is _always_ worth paying down LA as soon as possible, since you don't ever _lose_ anything. The only time you ever lose out is if you were just shy of the level where you could pay down the LA, but then got so much XP that it put you almost to the next level. This is a very unusual circumstance. Basically, if you have +1 LA and you pay down at character level 3 (ECL 4) then you pay 3,000 XP once and now you're still CL 3 but you have 3,000 XP less than your party members but without an LA. Therefore, you will be permanently 3,000 XP behind (boo hoo) but have the abilities of the +1 LA. So, at 10th level for the party, you'll be just shy of 10th or at 10th yourself. Now, I'm the first to admit that the Aasimar +1 LA is VERY weak. Much weaker than a class level. But is it worth 3,000 XP? That's the equivalent of 75,000 GP worth of magic items. Would those magic items be worth more than +2 WIS and +3 to three energy resistances? Hunh. Probably. With +2 LA it's a little trickier. Here you get into races that actually are good, e.g. a Drow. However, it will cost a Drow 16,000 XP to pay off the LA. Would I pay 16,000 XP to get SR? Here, I probably would so I'm not sure it's fair to let a Drow pay down the LA. Basically, WotC is saying that LA, while affecting a character's ECL for purposes of XP and party-strength, aren't as good as class levels or HD (which, in general, I agree with). Therefore, they are allowing the character to simply put up XP as opposed to losing permanent levels. This is not a bad idea, in theory, but you do have to take into account that some LA's are better than others. franzel
cdmonish 02-19-04, 01:17 PM	Frenzel, Your exactly right, when it comes to paying off LA. As soon as possible. If you made the equation continuous (i.e. a never ending campaign), the idea is eventually all differences between normal characters and any character with an LA would be negligible or moot. The differences are dramatic in ability early on but fade with time. Sort of like the difference between 1/10 raised to the 50th power and 1/10 raised to the 100th power (it's there, but is hardly noticeable. Disclaimer: Before someone argues about the effect a difference of that size can make in physics on a sub-atomic level, I'm considering the common math applications)
franzel 02-19-04, 01:57 PM	I don't know that the differences fade over time. For some LA's they do and for some they don't. Let's take some typical LA's shall we? Aasimar: +1 LA. Cost: 3,000 XP. This is tough, but handsome. I mean, fair. Drow: +2 LA. Cost: 16,000 XP. I would pay 16,000 XP for 12+CL SR. This may be too good. Svirfneblin: +3 LA. Cost: 45,000 XP. Hrm. Is the Svirfneblin saving throw bonuses worth 29,000 XP over the Drow? Maybe, but I doubt it. Half-celestial: +4 LA. Cost: 96,000 XP. Well, now we're talking. To even make back a level at that cost will take you well into epic. At 31st level, your equivalent XP party member will be at 34th level. The fact is that not all level adjustments were created equal and the DM needs to decide what a fair XP cost for the LA is, assuming there is one. I would say the Drow should be bumped up to over 20,000 XP at least, and then you could figure out when the payments can be made. Anything that has an LA but has character level-based powers stays relevant over time, e.g. Drow's SR and therefore should be paid continuously. Otherwise, it's not as big a deal. franzel
Alratan 02-19-04, 03:03 PM	I think I'd prefer to have the 400,000 gp of magic items myself - in almost any campaign it woudl be more effective to buy a spell resistance item.
The Livewire 02-19-04, 06:13 PM	My only confusion on it is level drain. If My aasimar has paid his level adjustment 'fee' then drops from second to first level due to Mr Wraith or Mr Death and raise dead, does the LA come back? :angel:
Myztek 02-19-04, 07:21 PM	The final pay off for a given LA is at class level: (LA factorial) X 3. So an Astral Deva (LA 8, HD 12) can buy off one level of LA at ECL 44 (Character level 24), a second at ECL 64 (Character level 45), a third at ECL 81 (Character level 63), a fourth at ECL 95 (character level 78), a fifth at ECL 106 (character level 90), a sixth at ECL 114 (character level 99), a seventh at ECL 119 (character level 105) and the last one at ECL 121 (character level 108) - dang - my math is off by one in there somewhere ... but you get the idea.
Buddha the DM 02-19-04, 07:40 PM	Ok now I'm just royally lost on this concept..
ShadowRanger 02-19-04, 08:11 PM	character level includes monster hit dice to let you know, accroding to the 3.5 faq Character Level: The total number of classes you have in all of your class levels, plus any racial hit dice.
Buddha the DM 02-19-04, 10:42 PM	I understand the concept of Character Level, but I am almost completely baffled by the whole concept of ECL reduction.
cdmonish 02-20-04, 10:55 AM	Myztek, Is it the Factorial or the Sigma (i.e. sum of 3x, from x=1 to x=8)? Statistics was more than a few years ago but I thought the factorial of 8 = 87654321 = 40320. The system still seems lacking for anything over LA+4 or campaigns that end in the 10th-12th level range. I think I'm going to stick to -1LA for every three class levels (not class levels current LA).