Eliminating Magic Items that Just aren't Fun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eliminating Magic Items that Just aren't Fun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paladin's Pride
10-06-07, 09:47 AM I really loved the new rule in the magic item compendium wherein a character can add certain basic effects like natural armor, deflection bonuses, and ability enhancement bonuses to other items without incurring a price multiplier. It's a great rule because you don't have to have certain necessary magic items taking up the bulk of your magic item slots.

I want to go one step farther and just eliminate the following items, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, any item that grants a miscellaneous AC bonus, cloaks of resistance, and possibly also items that grant skill increases. Why? These items don't really feel like magic items, they are just stat improvements that your character needs to survive, and I think my game would be improved if such bonuses were intrinsic to the character in the same way their base attack is.

So here is the system I came up with. At level 2 and every level thereafter, a character gains 3 "advancement points" (or AP). The character uses these points to buy certain vital increases, as follows:

+2 to a single ability score (maximum +10 to each ability score)--4 AP
+1 to AC (maximum +10)--2 AP
+1 to saving throws (maximum +5)--1 AP
+2 to all skill checks (maximum +10)--1 AP

In addition, you must have previously spent a certain amount of AP before you can buy higher levels of advancement in a particular area. For example, to buy the second increase to AC, the character must have already spent 6 AP. 2 AP would have been spent on the first AC increase, but the other 4 points have to be spent on something else. This prevents characters from unbalancing the game by throwing all their AP into one area while still allowing for a fair amount of specialization.

Since this replaces some of a character's magical treasure, the characters are treated as 1 level lower for the purposes of the "Wealth-by Level" table.

There seem to be several benefits to this idea, the most obvious being that the players are no longer carrying around half a dozen magical items that do little except allow them to have decent stats. However, there are a number of other benefits. Anti-magic field and Mordekainen's Disjunction are not as terrifying. NPC opponents receive AP as well, and as such are closer in power to the their PC counterparts (making them more deserving of their CR). These NPC's also don't have to be equipped with rings of protection +1 and amulets of natural armor +1 that will only end up being sold. This system also has the potential to scale better at epic.

The main drawback is that it is one more thing to track. In addition, it does require some extra house rules. Spells that previously granted deflection or natural armor bonuses to AC, or resistance bonuses to saving throws, need to be toned down somewhat since they stack with the unnamed bonuses granted by this sytem.

I'd appreciate any feedback you may have, as I plan to implement this system in my next game (the players are currently level 1).
runestar
10-06-07, 10:17 AM Sounds somewhat like what 4e might be implementing - reducing the players' reliance on gear, so that their victories can be fully attributed to their own capabilities, and less so on their myriad of magic gear.

I am neutral on this, since my primary goal would be to ensure that the players are at least strong enough to take on challenges around their cr. Whether they achieve this via magic gear or class features which replicate the benefits of gear is irrelevant. Thus, it would be prudent to determine if the benefits from your AP system can properly replace said eq.

At first glance, the cap for AC seems far too low, since a typical PC can normally enjoy up to at least +20 in AC boosting eq (+5 deflection, +5NA, +5 armour, +5 shield). Not to mention that spellcasters lose out from the lack of items like bracers of armour.

Skill checks also seem too generous - you are ultimately allowing +20 to all checks (not even a PC with twinked out gear can achieve this, and DMs rarely allow bonuses to exceed +10 or +15). Rogues will benefit a lot. Maybe that was your goal - I dunno.

Saving throws also seem a tad low, since there are other ways of boosting your saves other than the obligatory cloak of resistance +5 (luckstone, pale green ioun stone etc).

Stat looks okay. Cap is high, but you have to pay through your nose to get there, so it seems that few players should take you up on your offer.

Can't really be sure until this has actually be played out, so this is all I can infer at 1st glance.:P
Paladin's Pride
10-06-07, 10:51 AM Oops...guess I need a little more detail. Enhancement bonuses to armor and shields are still in (one of the reasons for this is to keep the AC discrepency between shield and and two weapon fighter users the same). Items that grant armor bonuses are still in as well, since they are a substitute for non-magical gear. The reason the attribute cap is high is that books that grant inherent bonuses are gone (I'll probably also eliminate wish from being able to grant inherent bonuses). Skill bonuses are limited to +10 not +20 (in 5 increments of +2), but I am a little worried skill bonuses might be too generous anyhow (to get them to use AP on skills over combat bonuses means it needs to be a good deal, though).
Tequila_Sunrise
10-06-07, 10:59 AM The main drawback is that it is one more thing to track. In addition, it does require some extra house rules. Spells that previously granted deflection or natural armor bonuses to AC, or resistance bonuses to saving throws, need to be toned down somewhat since they stack with the unnamed bonuses granted by this sytem.
What about naming these bonuses? Sure it might be a little weird to have a +1 deflection bonus as an intrinsic part of your character, but it's a fantasy world. Then you don't have to go through every book you own which has a spell in it to make sure that all the buff spells can't be abused with your system.
runestar
10-06-07, 10:49 PM (one of the reasons for this is to keep the AC discrepency between shield and and two weapon fighter users the same)

There was never a discrepancy because of animated shields.:P

The reason the attribute cap is high is that books that grant inherent bonuses are gone

Fair enough, I hadn't considered that. Your cap of +10 looks okay in that case.

Skill bonuses are limited to +10 not +20

Ah...the cap is a hard cap on the bonus granted, and not the amount of AP that can be spent...:embarrass

Still slightly on the overly strong side, but should not cause any game imbalance, IMO.:)
Melayl
10-07-07, 01:51 PM Doesn't look too bad. Do characters still get the +1 to any stat every 4 levels, do did you do away with that?
Paladin's Pride
10-07-07, 03:30 PM Do characters still get the +1 to any stat every 4 levels, do did you do away with that?

they still get the +1 to any stat at every 4 levels, I thought of eliminating that, but ultimately I decided to leave it in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin's Pride 10-06-07, 09:47 AM	I really loved the new rule in the magic item compendium wherein a character can add certain basic effects like natural armor, deflection bonuses, and ability enhancement bonuses to other items without incurring a price multiplier. It's a great rule because you don't have to have certain necessary magic items taking up the bulk of your magic item slots. I want to go one step farther and just eliminate the following items, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, any item that grants a miscellaneous AC bonus, cloaks of resistance, and possibly also items that grant skill increases. Why? These items don't really feel like magic items, they are just stat improvements that your character needs to survive, and I think my game would be improved if such bonuses were intrinsic to the character in the same way their base attack is. So here is the system I came up with. At level 2 and every level thereafter, a character gains 3 "advancement points" (or AP). The character uses these points to buy certain vital increases, as follows: +2 to a single ability score (maximum +10 to each ability score)--4 AP +1 to AC (maximum +10)--2 AP +1 to saving throws (maximum +5)--1 AP +2 to all skill checks (maximum +10)--1 AP In addition, you must have previously spent a certain amount of AP before you can buy higher levels of advancement in a particular area. For example, to buy the second increase to AC, the character must have already spent 6 AP. 2 AP would have been spent on the first AC increase, but the other 4 points have to be spent on something else. This prevents characters from unbalancing the game by throwing all their AP into one area while still allowing for a fair amount of specialization. Since this replaces some of a character's magical treasure, the characters are treated as 1 level lower for the purposes of the "Wealth-by Level" table. There seem to be several benefits to this idea, the most obvious being that the players are no longer carrying around half a dozen magical items that do little except allow them to have decent stats. However, there are a number of other benefits. Anti-magic field and Mordekainen's Disjunction are not as terrifying. NPC opponents receive AP as well, and as such are closer in power to the their PC counterparts (making them more deserving of their CR). These NPC's also don't have to be equipped with rings of protection +1 and amulets of natural armor +1 that will only end up being sold. This system also has the potential to scale better at epic. The main drawback is that it is one more thing to track. In addition, it does require some extra house rules. Spells that previously granted deflection or natural armor bonuses to AC, or resistance bonuses to saving throws, need to be toned down somewhat since they stack with the unnamed bonuses granted by this sytem. I'd appreciate any feedback you may have, as I plan to implement this system in my next game (the players are currently level 1).
runestar 10-06-07, 10:17 AM	Sounds somewhat like what 4e might be implementing - reducing the players' reliance on gear, so that their victories can be fully attributed to their own capabilities, and less so on their myriad of magic gear. I am neutral on this, since my primary goal would be to ensure that the players are at least strong enough to take on challenges around their cr. Whether they achieve this via magic gear or class features which replicate the benefits of gear is irrelevant. Thus, it would be prudent to determine if the benefits from your AP system can properly replace said eq. At first glance, the cap for AC seems far too low, since a typical PC can normally enjoy up to at least +20 in AC boosting eq (+5 deflection, +5NA, +5 armour, +5 shield). Not to mention that spellcasters lose out from the lack of items like bracers of armour. Skill checks also seem too generous - you are ultimately allowing +20 to all checks (not even a PC with twinked out gear can achieve this, and DMs rarely allow bonuses to exceed +10 or +15). Rogues will benefit a lot. Maybe that was your goal - I dunno. Saving throws also seem a tad low, since there are other ways of boosting your saves other than the obligatory cloak of resistance +5 (luckstone, pale green ioun stone etc). Stat looks okay. Cap is high, but you have to pay through your nose to get there, so it seems that few players should take you up on your offer. Can't really be sure until this has actually be played out, so this is all I can infer at 1st glance.:P
Paladin's Pride 10-06-07, 10:51 AM	Oops...guess I need a little more detail. Enhancement bonuses to armor and shields are still in (one of the reasons for this is to keep the AC discrepency between shield and and two weapon fighter users the same). Items that grant armor bonuses are still in as well, since they are a substitute for non-magical gear. The reason the attribute cap is high is that books that grant inherent bonuses are gone (I'll probably also eliminate wish from being able to grant inherent bonuses). Skill bonuses are limited to +10 not +20 (in 5 increments of +2), but I am a little worried skill bonuses might be too generous anyhow (to get them to use AP on skills over combat bonuses means it needs to be a good deal, though).
Tequila_Sunrise 10-06-07, 10:59 AM	The main drawback is that it is one more thing to track. In addition, it does require some extra house rules. Spells that previously granted deflection or natural armor bonuses to AC, or resistance bonuses to saving throws, need to be toned down somewhat since they stack with the unnamed bonuses granted by this sytem. What about naming these bonuses? Sure it might be a little weird to have a +1 deflection bonus as an intrinsic part of your character, but it's a fantasy world. Then you don't have to go through every book you own which has a spell in it to make sure that all the buff spells can't be abused with your system.
runestar 10-06-07, 10:49 PM	(one of the reasons for this is to keep the AC discrepency between shield and and two weapon fighter users the same) There was never a discrepancy because of animated shields.:P The reason the attribute cap is high is that books that grant inherent bonuses are gone Fair enough, I hadn't considered that. Your cap of +10 looks okay in that case. Skill bonuses are limited to +10 not +20 Ah...the cap is a hard cap on the bonus granted, and not the amount of AP that can be spent...:embarrass Still slightly on the overly strong side, but should not cause any game imbalance, IMO.:)
Melayl 10-07-07, 01:51 PM	Doesn't look too bad. Do characters still get the +1 to any stat every 4 levels, do did you do away with that?
Paladin's Pride 10-07-07, 03:30 PM	Do characters still get the +1 to any stat every 4 levels, do did you do away with that? they still get the +1 to any stat at every 4 levels, I thought of eliminating that, but ultimately I decided to leave it in.