Post/Author/DateTime	Post
I_roll_ones 02-26-08, 04:20 AM	Anyone here made a rogue to be the trapmonkey of the party, through they wanted to be good in combat, really? One sort of house rule I'm thinking of using is that everyone gets 2 extra skill points per level, and 8 extra at level 1. You can pick four skills(Except UMD) to be class skills at first level, but you can't change what they are. Any skills can be chosen, but they work together and you can justify it with your RP back story. I really doubt my players are going to make horrible decisions with this. However, the point is that the traditional trap monkey skills, rather then having a player focus on that alone and suck at other things, one can take Search and Disable Device, another Open Lock and Spot, and a third some talky skills, the fourth survival. Or Knowledge, depending. Basically, it spreads out "vital" skills across the map so no one has to take everything. And if someone DOES want to play a skill monkey...Say a Trap Crafter. They'll need Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Craft Trap. 5 skills, so if the player wants, they can easily put it on any class with 12 INT, and be fine. If they wish for say, a Ranger, they can skill easily pick up Handle Animal, Survival and Knowledge:(Nature), for a grand total of 8 skills. Now they need no Int bonus. Of course, they'll be RPing an idiot, but not my call. And then if they wanted heal, no issue. Tumble? Fine. Now...My first question is, should baddies benefit from this? The most obvious issue is that if anyone can make a trap, then traps are suddenly common. People can easily track. More people can be sneaky. Suddenly, those vital skills are now necessary if you can have Clerics ambushing you, Warblades using traps, and Druids spotting you. I might simply keep it for more developed, powerful baddies. The second is how to benefit certain uncommon skills. I'm thinking that Heal might help with identifying diseases, poisons, and how wounds were created. Oakspar77777 had an excellent idea on how to use Knowledge skills. (They confer a +1 bonus to a check if successful). Any more suggestions? Also, since poison use is a class ability that can be easily controlled by the DM, should it double as a skill? Keep the normal check in place(5% chance to poison yourself) and it would benefit the DC 15 skill check that replaces the DC 15 reflex save not to poison yourself when you critically fumble. (Probably use the reflex save for those who don't have the skill) Keep in mind that you can't take 20 on it in combat. It would probably be tied to dexterity. Five or more ranks in craft poison would give a +2 synergy bonus to this skill. Not...Worth maxing out, no, but a few ranks might help those who wish to use poison not kill themselves. And a dex based character might be alright just using Craft Poison instead. If they have a +5 dexterity bonus, they get +2 from the bonus, so they have to roll a 8 or worse to poison themselves, so they'd only need 8 ranks at that level. Then there is the issue of if it is untrained or not. It makes sense for it to be trained, but then it penalizes further then what is in the rules. Any thoughts?
Red_Crawler 02-27-08, 01:43 AM	My DM allows poison application to not poison when you take a 20 on it in a non-combat situation (so a poison would take about a 2 minutes to apply safely by say putting on gloves, carefully opening the bottle/container/etc, and finally coating the weapon or sprinkling in the food or so on.) Also as either a rogue, or a factotum. High int and high cha are often more useful to you than strength ever is, and you'll have tons of skill points. Dex>Int (int first if factotum)>Cha>Con>Str>Wis
Fireclave 02-27-08, 04:59 AM	Anyone here made a rogue to be the trapmonkey of the party, through they wanted to be good in combat, really? I never thought the rogue lacked in skill points to the point that their combat suffered. Being a trapmonkey only requires two skills to do, Search and Disable Device (three if you include Open Lock, but see below). That leaves the rogue six skill points to invest in whatever else (most likely Hide, Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Tumble, and UMD for a rogue heavily focused on combat). Eight skill points cover your trap-monkeying, combat and typical skill-monkey needs. And a rogue that wants to cover additional areas should consider investing in his Int. ...Or is it that you think Rogue don't make good combatants, which would be a separate issue to discuss. I never felt that Open Lock warrented it's own skill and suggest rolling it into Disable Device. One sort of house rule I'm thinking of using is that everyone gets 2 extra skill points per level, and 8 extra at level 1. You can pick four skills(Except UMD) to be class skills at first level, but you can't change what they are. Any skills can be chosen, but they work together and you can justify it with your RP back story. I really doubt my players are going to make horrible decisions with this. The equivalent of four Skill Knowledge feats and a bunch of bonus skills is very generous. I'm not saying not to try it, but it will mitigate the value of skill-heavy classes like the Rogue and Bard. But if that's the effect you're going for, more power to you. And if someone DOES want to play a skill monkey...Say a Trap Crafter. They'll need Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Craft Trap. 5 skills Just a nitpick, but to be a trap crafter, you only need one skill, and that's Craft (Trap). You don't need search or disable device to craft traps, though it would be reasonable to expect one who can make-ith to also be able to break-ith. Move Silently and Hide don't even synergize with any craft skill, which can take days or weeks to finish. A trap crafter is not a typical skill monkey. Now...My first question is, should baddies benefit from this? The most obvious issue is that if anyone can make a trap, then traps are suddenly common. People can easily track. More people can be sneaky. Suddenly, those vital skills are now necessary if you can have Clerics ambushing you, Warblades using traps, and Druids spotting you. I might simply keep it for more developed, powerful baddies. Since it seems that your goal is to help players cover more bases, I suggest that you don't grant the same benefits to your most of your baddies. What point would there be to having an extra edge if your opponents can, and will, easily counter it. Now BBEG's and other major players are another story. They should be able to level the playing field with the PCs and hold their own. Also, traps may not necessarily become more common. They will still be expensive and time consuming to build. The second is how to benefit certain uncommon skills. I'm thinking that Heal might help with identifying diseases, poisons, and how wounds were created. Oakspar77777 had an excellent idea on how to use Knowledge skills. (They confer a +1 bonus to a check if successful). Any more suggestions? I always liked how in NWN you could use the heal skill in combination with a disposable healing kit to instantly restore HP equal to your healing check (yeah I know I said NWN, but stay with me for a minute). I've consider creating something similar for PnP, probably in the form of a series of alchemical substances, to allow for a similar effect. I just haven't sat down to figure out how to balance and price it. Also, since poison use is a class ability that can be easily controlled by the DM, should it double as a skill? Keep the normal check in place(5% chance to poison yourself) and it would benefit the DC 15 skill check that replaces the DC 15 reflex save not to poison yourself when you critically fumble. (Probably use the reflex save for those who don't have the skill) Keep in mind that you can't take 20 on it in combat. It would probably be tied to dexterity. Five or more ranks in craft poison would give a +2 synergy bonus to this skill. Not...Worth maxing out, no, but a few ranks might help those who wish to use poison not kill themselves. And a dex based character might be alright just using Craft Poison instead. If they have a +5 dexterity bonus, they get +2 from the bonus, so they have to roll a 8 or worse to poison themselves, so they'd only need 8 ranks at that level. That's an interesting idea, but I'm not completely sure that Poison Use would warrent it's own skill since it's so specific and limited in function, would require relatively few points, and has no advantage tp investing in a high rank with it. Maybe make it a feat instead, with ranks in Craft Poison and a high enough dexterity (and/or intelligence, representing knowing how to handle poisons properly) score as prerequistes.
I_roll_ones 02-27-08, 03:38 PM	The feat really makes more sense, and is more efficient. I might just make it require five ranks in craft poison, and be done with it. And yes, I do think that rogues are poor combatants. My group does not play with rogues, fighters or monks. I did almost fall asleep while playing one, so I can't really blame them(Not the fault of the DM, mind you). I'd have to look at factorum, but since there are no warforged, I might say that it's banned. But, since rogues are gone, there are few 8 skill point per level classes that players really want to take. The lesser used ones, such as use rope, climb, listen, bluff, craft, etc. get no love. And it does make an issue for survival and heal, two valuable skills that you have to play a wild-type or a cleric-type to get, often. The point is to encourage playing classes not to benefit the party and be bored with, but to benefit the party and still have fun. So in essence, moving away from the rouge. The trap crafter makes no sense if they are not very good at dealing with other people's traps, and the combat trapsmith I believe, requires those skills. Also, hide and move silently help to place the thing down. I should also mention that the campaign I will test this on will be a ninja-focused campaign(Not actually oriental, just using the term ninja to mean a stealthy, skill based fighter). A rogue cannot be a tank or a healer, and needs a variant to become a survival expert. So despite the rogue being sneaky, it has limited applications in the campaign. Open lock and disable trap being combined...Does make sense. I'll try that out. I've played NWN, and that might solve the issue of healing out of combat(No one likes to play healers besides me, I'm not going to force them). Have the kit take a while to apply (Preventing it's use in combat), but effective enough so as long as no one is attacking, it'll take care of cuts and boo-boos. It probably won't heal an amount equal to the heal skill, but more like being the equivalent of a cure spell of the right level. Thinking that it takes a heal check to use the kit. Heal can also make the kit using ingredients, and survival or knowledge nature(Either or) to find the plants and materials necessary to make the kit. Two skills, but it's not like Survival and Heal aren't helpful, or they could just buy the things. Is it a survival, knowledge nature or craft poison check to extract poison from a creature? Not sure where that is listed.
Fireclave 02-28-08, 12:49 AM	The feat really makes more sense, and is more efficient. I might just make it require five ranks in craft poison, and be done with it. Cool And yes, I do think that rogues are poor combatants.Rogue can make decent combatants, but it does take some work and planning since they are typically glass cannons. But since your group is dissatisfied with the the Rogue's combat ability, perhaps give the the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) a try. I feel it makes a better combatant that the default Rogue because it can augment it's offensive and defense with powers. A rogue with Vigor or activated will survive much longer that a rogue without, for example. And the versitility that comes with the utility powers and Expanded Knowledge makes it a bit more interesting to play, IMO. You might also want to consider simply giving a rogue a slight power boost. Giving it the Ranger's HD and Bab would go a long way to making it more serviceable in combat. But as long as you get rid of the need to have trapfinding to disable traps over DC 20, your group shouldn't miss rogues too much. I came across this varient on the boards somewhere: Trapfinding is no longer required to disable traps of DC 20 or over. Instead, trapfinding allows the rogue to automatically search for traps in the same way that elves can automatically search for hidden door. This variant allows anybody disable high level traps, but still allows the Rogue to keep their niche (assuming, of course, that you decide to still include them). The lesser used ones, such as use rope, climb, listen, bluff, craft, etc. get no love. I can't help you with Use Rope or Craft. Bluff might get used a bit more if it were easier to feint with it. Maybe consider dropping the action need to feint from a standard action to a move action, and let the Improved Feint feat drop it to a free or swift action. I wouldn't think that Listen would be a lesser used skill since you need it to counter the commonly used Move Silently. The trap crafter makes no sense if they are not very good at dealing with other people's traps, and the combat trapsmith I believe, requires those skills. Also, hide and move silently help to place the thing down. I agree that a trap crafter probably should be expected to handle other people's traps, but that need not be the case. It's one thing to now how to build a bomb. It's another to find and disable a minefield filled with similar bombs. Admittingly, I'm only passily familiar with Combat Trapsmith, but from what I understand, it's prestige class that allows the use of Craft (Trap) in new ways, and not a typical, stealth-disable-trap, skill monkey role. And as normal for prestige classes, you are focusing into a narrower, specialized role. So it's too be expected that a Combat Trapsmith will be less versatile skill wise. Normal traps take much longer to put down unless you have access to Fabricate or similar magics or ranks in Profession (Ninja Construction Worker). I've played NWN, and that might solve the issue of healing out of combat(No one likes to play healers besides me, I'm not going to force them). Have the kit take a while to apply (Preventing it's use in combat), but effective enough so as long as no one is attacking, it'll take care of cuts and boo-boos. It probably won't heal an amount equal to the heal skill, but more like being the equivalent of a cure spell of the right level. There's actually an item like that. The Healing Salve in the ToB is basically a mudane Potion of CLW with the same cost and takes a full-action to apply. The only issue I have with it is that, if I make similar items of increasing power, they players could actually get a potentially huge discount over buying regular potions if they decide to make their own since mundane items only cost 1/3 the base price (which might not be a bad thing actually). And there's also the issue of deciding what to set the crafting DCs to. Another similar idea I was considering was to let Healing Kit greatly accelerate the longterm care use of the Heal skill, and make them most useful between adventuring days when the party is likely low on spells. In this case, a straight Heal-check-to-HP recovery method would probably not be a bad thing. Or maybe different healing kits for both. Heal can also make the kit using ingredients, and survival or knowledge nature(Either or) to find the plants and materials necessary to make the kit. Two skills, but it's not like Survival and Heal aren't helpful, or they could just buy the things. I never thought to use the Heal skill to actually craft the Healing kits. I like that idea. Is it a survival, knowledge nature or craft poison check to extract poison from a creature? Not sure where that is listed. I believe the Complete Adventurer has more detailed rules for crafting and extracting poison, so you might want to check there. Barring that, I would make it a Craft (Poison) check. Knowledge checks would help you to know stuff, but not necessarily do stuff. You can have 20 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), but if you don't know which end of the hammer to use (read: have a Profession skill), you're not going to get too far. Survival pretty much only covers getting along in the wild and surviving. A survival check would probably help "forage" source of poison (plant, animal, other), but not necessarily cover how to properly extract, contain, and preserve the poison. I would also argue that Craft (Alchemy) should allow you to identify poisons since the Detect Poison spells allows you to make a Craft (Alchemy) to divine a poison's identity. Perhaps even let Craft (Alchemy) be used to create potions of a pseudo-magical nature and/or synergize with Craft (Poison).
I_roll_ones 02-28-08, 01:06 AM	I like most of your ideas, minus the rogue. I have not tried or looked at psionics much, I'll admit, but flavor wise, it doesn't quite match up all the time. That, and this will, uh, be my first time DMing(Maybe second, if I can whip up a shorter campaign). So I don't want to add what i don't have to. Also, the issue with the rogue is not just the glass cannon, but inability to deal with certain enemies, and the fact that Swordsages, Warblades and Crusaders are in play. So little reason to play it, if you can just do something with better combat options. I will definitely have to look at Feint, excellent point. And that psychic rogue has 6 skill points per level, I think.
Fireclave 02-28-08, 02:03 AM	I like most of your ideas, minus the rogue. Can't blame a guy for trying :D I have not tried or looked at psionics much, I'll admit, but flavor wise, it doesn't quite match up all the time. Flavorwise, psionics is magic with different names and MP instead of spell slots. Honestly, that's it. If magic fits in your campaign, then more magic can fit in your campaign. And most of the time, when people say they don't like the flavor of psionics, they don't like it sounds "too sci-fi", while not realizing that many core spells are already equally non-fantasy in their phonetics (Polymorph for example). There's a thread around here somewhere that gives some very good suggestions for making psionic powers sound more magical. And even if that still doesn't convince you that psionics does not fit the flavor of your campaign, the mechanics are still sound. Also, the issue with the rogue is not just the glass cannon, but inability to deal with certain enemies, and the fact that Swordsages, Warblades and Crusaders are in play. Martial adepts do roxxors teh boxxors. In that case, I would just add to the Swordsage +2 skill points and the rogue's class skills to it's list. Bam! Neo-rogue! And that psychic rogue has 6 skill points per level, I think. Very true. However, many of their powers can substitute partially or entirely for their missing skill points, or making them extremely good at a skill, plus still have powers to spare on other things like offensive, defense, and "fun stuff". Knock can replace ranks in Open Lock. Compression and/or Chamelon can lessen the need for Hide ranks. Levitate or Wall Walker can replace the climb skill completely. Read Thoughts can entirely cover Sense Motive. Dimensional Pocket:Slight of Hand. Psionic Find Traps:Search. Microkinesis:Disable Device and Open Lock. And so on. Plus, since psychic rogues will likely have a few extra skill points from their int since require a bit of extra int to get all of their top level powers.
Cranewings 02-28-08, 08:29 AM	I personally think Rouges make great combatants. At first level a fighter with an 18 strength does 1d8+4 or 5 damage depending on feets. That is an average of 9 damage. A rouge with a 14 Strength deals 2d6+2, or 9 points of damage. The rouge's damage total goes up every few levels while the fighter's really doesn't. If you make a rouge a good archer with two arrows per round and flank or spec out Bluff to use it as a move equivlant action with combat reflexes, they end up doing gobs of damage. I think they are the best strikers. Not to mention the fact that they are the exciting class. If you need a scout, an infiltrator, an assassin, and often times a talker, the rouge does the job. The rouge goes first in as many or more situations as the ranger. Your ideas sound real good for running your alternate style of game though, the ninja based one. This is the blog for my dnd game. A month and a half in, almost everything worth mentioning that happened was performed by the rouge halfling Tony. http://coldnorthdnd.livejournal.com/ later
I_roll_ones 02-28-08, 05:54 PM	My players don't want to play a rogue. I don't want to play a rogue. I don't even know if I'll even make NPC's with levels in rogue, other then one that is a strict non-combatant. If you want to play with rogues, that's fine and dandy. I'm not going to tell you how to play. I however, hate how people get thrust into certain roles, and I want to eliminate the role of the skill monkey because no one wants to do it. Also, the campaign world will feature lots of elementals, so already the rogue is rather pointless, without removing their main form of damage somehow. I think there is a variant, but they'd have to give up something to be good in the world. What I would like is not on how I should play differently to allow people to make skill monkeys without everyone taking the same thing, and input on craft poison, which is already dealt with. (Make it a feat with ranks in craft poison as a requirement) Would it be unreasonable to have Heal to make heal kits from materials, Craft(Poison) from materials, but Knowledge: (Nature) to obtain the materials for free?
Fireclave 02-28-08, 09:13 PM	Would it be unreasonable to have Heal to make heal kits from materials, Craft(Poison) from materials, but Knowledge: (Nature) to obtain the materials for free? It wouldn't be unreasonable to let Knowledge (Nature) obtain the materials for free. But IMO, Knowledge would probably tell you what to look for and the general area to look it, wouldn't help you actually forage for the materials. Knowledge skills let you know stuff, but not necessarily do stuff. Assuming that the materials you need for the heal kits and poisons and don't require you to kill something with a CR over 1, Survival would probably be most appropriate for tracking down the free stuff. Though I'd allow Knowledge (Nature) ranks to add a synergy bonus to the check.
LordTarmos 02-28-08, 10:37 PM	I am sorry but readiing all of these posts saying how rogues are bad combatants, I have to disagree, my rogue just hit 20th level he is a rogue 13 fighter 2 invisible blade 5, and handles combat exceptionally well. His ac is currently 40 (when in robilars gambit) he gets sneak attack almost every attack he makes (with his bluff as a free action) does (even when he does not he gets it on all crits[which is 30% of the time]) his bab is 16 with dex and weapon focus and +3 on kukri's of speed thats +32/+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+18/+18( and +32 to all Aoo). to . he has +3 kukri's of speed which he can add weapon crystals to including truedeath (allows sneak attack on undead) and destruction (allows sneak attaack on constructs) and others. on his 10 attacks non Aoo he consistantly hits over half thats 5 attacks at 13d6 + 1d4+3 damage each.If he only hits half which is rare thats(total 65D6 + 5d4+15) (that averages over 200 hp in a round if we do not include aoo. which he gets one for each melee attack made against him up to 13 (oh wait he has dual strike so he gets 2 attacks per Aoo thats up to 26 more total attacks (I think as a rogue (or any other class thats pretty combat effective) oh I forgot his strength thats 2 more per hit or 1 with off hand ah we will just forget those. either way if made right a rogue can be highly combat effective. Yes highly combat effective.
I_roll_ones 02-28-08, 11:56 PM	The thing about rogues, is that I have two options: "Alright, one of you has to be a rogue because none of the shiny classes you actually like to play get disable device!" Or "No one make a rogue, just take extra skill points if you can justify it with a back story" And then there is the issue of: "Yeah, none of you have heal as a class skill. Sorry. One of you roll up a cleric or similar healing class, which none of you wants to play in the first place" Or "You want heal and survival? Good combo." So if you want to play rogues, fine. I'd like for interesting ideas for ways I can NOT force my players to do things they don't want to, and make more versatile characters.
Cranewings 02-29-08, 07:14 AM	I don't see rouge or cleric as boring. What is the option? I'm a fighter with a sword. I'm a fighter with a bow. I'm a fighter that trips people with a whip. I'm a fighter with two swords. I'm a mage with sleep. I'm a mage with magic missile. I'm a mage with color spray. Great team guys! Legend of the Five Rings Rules!
Cranewings 02-29-08, 07:17 AM	Tarmos, that is awesome. (:
I_roll_ones 02-29-08, 02:16 PM	Forcing people into roles because other people on the forums like them is a silly idea. You like them. So you play them. My players don't. Why cater to that? I heard that there is a feat that already grants poison use, but I can't find it. Is it real, and if so, can anyone point me to the source? Also, Survival is useful enough to validate getting it, so that works. Maybe allow players to use Knowledge Nature with a penalty?
Rosisha 03-02-08, 06:24 PM	I joined a group once that had no cleric, and I didn't want to play one, so I made a compromise deal with my DM. I played a wizard who specialized in necromancy, and had skill in Knowledge (Anatomy), the Heal skill, Knowledge (Disease), and Craft (Alchemy). I could make, with a successful Craft (Alchemy) check the following: Healing Compress These handy items are a must have for any adventurer. Essentially an advanced bandage, it is created by treating multiple layers of linen or cotton in healing alchemical compounds. Usually wrapped up tightly, a compress can be unwound, and then wrapped around a wound, a simple application of water begins the healing process. A healing compress will heal 2 points of damage, stabilize a patient, and assist the healing process. Make a healing check when creating. If the check passes the player heals 1 + 1d4 hit points each day of full rest while using the compress. The cost of a healing compress was 50gp. The DC to create was 15. Turnback A turnback is a small stone that is wrapped in cord, usually burned in a fire with the elements and chemicals that are needed to work its alchemical magic. Turnbacks are an ancient secret, created to stop assassination via poison or bad food. When a character suspects they could be poisoned, or will eat bad food, they can swallow a turnback. Chocolate helps it go down easier. This grants them a +5 Alchemy bonus to their next fort save against poison or rotten food/water, and the stone remains potent for 24 hours. However, if it is successful, the turnback will need to exit the body the way it came in, causing the character to loose all actions for one full round after being poisoned. They will then successfully throw up the stone, and can proceed from there. A turnback costs 25gp and is a DC 10 item to create. Elixir of Health These small bottles are usually the key to surviving even the most diseased ravaged area. They provide an unusual degree of health to the imbiber, allowing them to readily fend off disease both natural and magical. They are often used by clerics and adepts of healing dieties when they go in to treat a population fighting off a particularly vile disease. However, those who explore ancient tombs would find them useful as well, for who knows what ancient diseases lurk with ancient secrets? An elixir of health actually just increases the resources of the body. A simple way to think about it is a Halls Defense crushed up into a bottle of Gatorade. So you get a lot of vitamin C, zinc, and electrolytes, which is everything the body needs to stay healthy. This adds a +1 to +5 Alchemy bonus to any fort save made to stop disease. The amount is determined by the DC. DC 10 for +1 and an additional +2 for each bonus to the save. The bonus will last for 24 hours, and the cost is 25gp multiplied by the bonus. ------------ There were others as well, but a quick check through my email I could only find these. Allowing the players to use these items, or make them, will allow the players to do alright. It will still be hard, and other healing methods are needed (I remember we used Healing Salves, alchemical healing potions, and food that was treated to increase healing rate). Anyway, that should hopefully help you find a way around the healing question. Rosisha
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 01:31 AM	Hrm...I would perfer to only have one skill(Heal) be used to make the items instead of four. Do you think that would be horribly unbalancing? (Also, no necromancer thus far) But I will definitely be stealing those items! Thank you!
Rosisha 03-04-08, 07:17 PM	I only needed the Craft (Alchemy) skill for it, but the others provided bonuses and knowledge I could use to help the party. Hence why I took them. It was a load of fun actually, way different from a cleric. Totally different healing feel. I even was allowed to make a few necromantic healing spells which would come with dis figurations and scarring. Load of fun.