Endless grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Endless grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gold Katana
01-22-06, 03:19 PM WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this.
Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat).

Did we totally misunderstand the grappling rules? They seem ill-designed, counter-intuitive, and lacking in resolution. :confused:
jazzman831
01-22-06, 03:45 PM I don't know a lot about this (my players are... not very creative) but there are several things you can do while grappled, as can be seen in the SRD:

If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.

Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.
The two important actions for your question are "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent". Spellcasters can also cast spells while grappling (though it's not likely) and you can use magic items such as wands.
Ruhl-Than Sage
01-22-06, 04:06 PM WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this.
Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat).

Did we totally misunderstand the grappling rules? They seem ill-designed, counter-intuitive, and lacking in resolution. :confused:

I had a similar expirience in my game, however it was even worse because the player they were trying to restrain had the Close-Quarters Combat feat (and improved unarmed strike). If your not familiar with the feat, it allows you an attack of opportunity even if the attacker has improved grapple or improved grab, and the amount of damage you deal is added to your roll to resist the grapple.

I think the grappling rules could be improved a little, but yes the non-leathal damage option does help quite a bit in the whole subdual process. Also the current rules allow for a type of action called Aid Another. Essentially each other person assisting add a +2 bonus on the main persons checks, all they have to do is suceed in a DC 10 check.

That should be enough to subdue someone who doesn't have Close Quarters Fighting. Even taking advantage of those rules however it took some 15 rounds to subdue the berserk character in my game. They were lassoing him, teaming up, coordinating their efforts, and it wasn't until two nets were thrown on him that he was finally restrained.

That feat really makes it impossible for anything but a huge giant, or a group of people with nets to successfull grapple you!
FriendoftheDork
01-22-06, 09:34 PM You tried to grapple the party barbarian? Ooooh... tough one. Yeah you forgot about the fact that every PC succeeding a grapple check will deal 1d3+str subdual damage to the barbarian.

Also, I think the grapplers could cooperate with aid-another checks instead of directly trying to grapple the barbarian. That means only one grapple check can deal damage, but it is more likely to succeed.
Loren Pechtel
01-22-06, 10:55 PM It seems to me that there should be something better than just aid-another in dealing with grapping. If nothing else, if two people grapple one person they are inherently aiding each other because the target of the grapple can't devote all of their limbs to freeing themselves from the first person.

Perhaps all grapplers should be considered as flanking all other grapplers even if they normally couldn't flank the target.
FriendoftheDork
01-23-06, 09:04 AM Remember that grappling should not be more effective than chopping someone with a sword. Realistically yes it should be harder to grapple against multiple opponents, but then again so should normal fighting. Instead all you got is flanking bonus.

But the system works alright as it is. This is D&D not realism.
Millennium
01-23-06, 09:14 AM Keep in mind that 23 rounds only seems endless: in game time it's only two minutes and eighteen seconds. It doesn't sound like it flowed all that smoothly play-wise, and that could certainly be a problem, but I'm not sure I see realism issues.
lostone
01-23-06, 11:18 AM WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this.
Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat).What classes and levels are the rest of the party? Why couldn't the party wizard or cleric (I'm assuming there is one) cast a spell to immobilize him?

Fight dominating spell with dominating spell. Hold Person on him. It's roleplaying logic but if he is already dominated shouldn't his mental defenses be weakened? It should be easier to hold person on him.

Cast web or any other immobilizing spell.
Throw up a wall of stone around him.
Cast an anti-magic field to suppress the domination.
Kill the spellcaster who dominated him and end the spell.

The last thing I would want to do is grapple the physically strongest character in the group. If nothing else just have everyone beat him to unconsciousness using the -4 penalty to do nonlethal damage. Barbarians typically have lower AC so it shouldn't be too hard to do. And the rogue should have a nonlethal weapon they can sneak attack with anyway. Sneak attack him for massive subdual damage.
Loren Pechtel
01-25-06, 12:39 AM Remember that grappling should not be more effective than chopping someone with a sword. Realistically yes it should be harder to grapple against multiple opponents, but then again so should normal fighting. Instead all you got is flanking bonus.

But the system works alright as it is. This is D&D not realism.

Sometimes it would be. Mob tactics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gold Katana 01-22-06, 03:19 PM	WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this. Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat). Did we totally misunderstand the grappling rules? They seem ill-designed, counter-intuitive, and lacking in resolution. :confused:
jazzman831 01-22-06, 03:45 PM	I don't know a lot about this (my players are... not very creative) but there are several things you can do while grappled, as can be seen in the SRD: If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. The two important actions for your question are "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent". Spellcasters can also cast spells while grappling (though it's not likely) and you can use magic items such as wands.
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-22-06, 04:06 PM	WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this. Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat). Did we totally misunderstand the grappling rules? They seem ill-designed, counter-intuitive, and lacking in resolution. :confused: I had a similar expirience in my game, however it was even worse because the player they were trying to restrain had the Close-Quarters Combat feat (and improved unarmed strike). If your not familiar with the feat, it allows you an attack of opportunity even if the attacker has improved grapple or improved grab, and the amount of damage you deal is added to your roll to resist the grapple. I think the grappling rules could be improved a little, but yes the non-leathal damage option does help quite a bit in the whole subdual process. Also the current rules allow for a type of action called Aid Another. Essentially each other person assisting add a +2 bonus on the main persons checks, all they have to do is suceed in a DC 10 check. That should be enough to subdue someone who doesn't have Close Quarters Fighting. Even taking advantage of those rules however it took some 15 rounds to subdue the berserk character in my game. They were lassoing him, teaming up, coordinating their efforts, and it wasn't until two nets were thrown on him that he was finally restrained. That feat really makes it impossible for anything but a huge giant, or a group of people with nets to successfull grapple you!
FriendoftheDork 01-22-06, 09:34 PM	You tried to grapple the party barbarian? Ooooh... tough one. Yeah you forgot about the fact that every PC succeeding a grapple check will deal 1d3+str subdual damage to the barbarian. Also, I think the grapplers could cooperate with aid-another checks instead of directly trying to grapple the barbarian. That means only one grapple check can deal damage, but it is more likely to succeed.
Loren Pechtel 01-22-06, 10:55 PM	It seems to me that there should be something better than just aid-another in dealing with grapping. If nothing else, if two people grapple one person they are inherently aiding each other because the target of the grapple can't devote all of their limbs to freeing themselves from the first person. Perhaps all grapplers should be considered as flanking all other grapplers even if they normally couldn't flank the target.
FriendoftheDork 01-23-06, 09:04 AM	Remember that grappling should not be more effective than chopping someone with a sword. Realistically yes it should be harder to grapple against multiple opponents, but then again so should normal fighting. Instead all you got is flanking bonus. But the system works alright as it is. This is D&D not realism.
Millennium 01-23-06, 09:14 AM	Keep in mind that 23 rounds only seems endless: in game time it's only two minutes and eighteen seconds. It doesn't sound like it flowed all that smoothly play-wise, and that could certainly be a problem, but I'm not sure I see realism issues.
lostone 01-23-06, 11:18 AM	WindOwl's post re: choke hold prompted me to post this. Had a situation last night where the party's barbarian is dominated to kill the party. Kind-hearted party (three other players) grapple him so they don't have to kill him. This becomes a nearly two hour round-about of grapple, pin, escape checks. There is no bonus for mulitiple grapplers, except for having to break free of them, too. There is no choke-out rule. There is nowhere to go but round and round. Eventually, we implented some ad hoc exhaustion and choking rules (it took 23 rounds to finish the combat).What classes and levels are the rest of the party? Why couldn't the party wizard or cleric (I'm assuming there is one) cast a spell to immobilize him? Fight dominating spell with dominating spell. Hold Person on him. It's roleplaying logic but if he is already dominated shouldn't his mental defenses be weakened? It should be easier to hold person on him. Cast web or any other immobilizing spell. Throw up a wall of stone around him. Cast an anti-magic field to suppress the domination. Kill the spellcaster who dominated him and end the spell. The last thing I would want to do is grapple the physically strongest character in the group. If nothing else just have everyone beat him to unconsciousness using the -4 penalty to do nonlethal damage. Barbarians typically have lower AC so it shouldn't be too hard to do. And the rogue should have a nonlethal weapon they can sneak attack with anyway. Sneak attack him for massive subdual damage.
Loren Pechtel 01-25-06, 12:39 AM	Remember that grappling should not be more effective than chopping someone with a sword. Realistically yes it should be harder to grapple against multiple opponents, but then again so should normal fighting. Instead all you got is flanking bonus. But the system works alright as it is. This is D&D not realism. Sometimes it would be. Mob tactics.