Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avihs 09-10-05, 04:32 PM	(Grrr.. I wish search was still up ... :mad: ) Does anybody out there have any alternate Energy Drain rules? SUch as causeing X amount of xp loss, as opposed to a full level?
Aurotuli 09-10-05, 08:09 PM	The problem with an XP penalty is that it is rarely immediately penalizing unless it is huge - and then you have the problem that a mechanic that currently is only a moderate problem to all levels is suddenly either useless at high levels or crippling at low levels. If, for instance, a Vampire did 5000 xp damage, most high level characters would only be bothered if they had recently gained a level, maybe. Any character of third level or lower, however, would instantly be slain - or nearly so. The only possible alternatives I can imagine are: 1) Using only ability damage / drain with the stipulation that anyone who takes drain that would lower them below zero instead takes - perhaps - 100 XP per ability point drained. Once a character has any ability at zero, they are already completely incapacitated. The additional penalty is relatively minor, and it does not penalize undead attacks as undead typically turn you into one of their own once a score reaches zero anyway. 2) A new condition called 'Curst'. This is similar to Energy Drain, except that level is not affected. Instead the Curst character receives an unnamed penalty equal to the normal level loss to armor class and all attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and caster level. You might also apply it to benefits such as fast healing, spell resistance, etc (ie: set mechanical advantages). Those permanently curst would be considered extremely unlucky. They rarely succeed in their tasks, and bad things tend to happen to them (failed balance checks on a slope, failed diplomacy check, failed save, lower AC, etc). Restoration or Break Enchantment could be used to deal with Curst. If used before the save verse permanency is made, the save auto-succeeds and the penalty decreases immediately by one (normally it decreases at one point per 24 hours). If used after a failed check vs permanency (Will save or Fort save? I tend to think Will is more appropriate.) then it merely removes the permanency, allowing it to restore itself at the normal rate. Greater Restoration removes 1+1d4 points if used before the permanency check, while if used after it only removes permanency and restores 1d3. Raise Dead does not remove the Curst status, but Resurrection and Reincarnate do (since neither requires the body). I'm not certain how this would affect game play, if at all. It is an interesting idea, however, and mechanically it is not too different from Energy Drain - its just not based upon XP or levels. Of course, if you really want to emphasize the terrible nature of being Curst, make it grant a point of Taint (if you use the taint system) that cannot be removed while curst. And/or state that those curst rise as zombies a number of days after dying equal to 10 - curst points. - - - I recall the first few campaigns I went through (both as PC and as DM) involving energy drain. The DMs I had been under treated it as going back to a prior level, in the order the levels were received. So a Ftr 2 / Wiz 3 whose last two levels were Ftr - if hit for 2 points of level drain - was no longer a fighter - only a Wiz 3 (using the same skill ranks, etc as on the prior char sheet; a new sheet was used each time a level was gained, in part for this reason). In one instance, a Clr9 was hit for 4 points of level drain and chose to take a level of ranger after (fav enemy: undead), eventually becoming a Hunter of the Dead a level or two later. The PC's level 9 char - when it reached that level - was quite different (in skills, abilities, etc) than the prior Clr 9 had been. In some ways that is the one thing I really liked about 3.0 Energy Drain - it allowed one to take a new path if the situation called for it. 3.5 Energy drain does not allow that. If an entire 10th level party was drained (each and every PC) to level 6, it would be the same as if - when they first reached level 6 - the DM required them to state their class level choices for the next four levels, not allowing them to change their mind later. I think the reason this occured was due to some taking advantage of level drain, particularly in the case of DMs not keeping track of a character's prior level skill ranks, etc - a sort of 'redo' button. Also, it was probably seen as more of an inconvenience at higher levels - where such could be removed with the correct spell, etc rather than re-lived.
Avihs 09-11-05, 02:31 AM	Thank you, Aurotuli, for your response and insights. As it sits now, I am in the role of the player and am gearing up to run my first campaign in a long time (don't even want to try to add up the *ahem* years, lets just say it was back in the AD&D days). Needless to say, the effects of level drain attacks are one of my concerns, as they can be murder.
Arcade 09-11-05, 09:17 AM	One thing I've considered for level drain is that if a character loses a level, I don't take their level away, but I do take their XP down as normal. This way you skip having to worry about backtracking a level and losing their knowledge. However, it will take them longer to reach their next level so they still feel the effects quite a bit. Example: 4th level character at 8000 XP loses a level. They stay 4th level, but now they only have 4500 XP (half way between 3rd and 4th). They gain XP as if they were still 4th level, but now they need 5500 XP before reaching 5th level. If they take enough level drains to run out of XP, then they die/become undead/etc. just like normal. Also, I have seen a suggestion that instead of losing a level, you lose however much XP it took you to gain your last level. So in the same example up above, the character would lose 3000 XP (the amount needed to get from 3rd to 4th). They would end up with 5000 XP, just barely staying at 4th level, but having to start all over again on the XP trail. [EDIT: Oops, the character would go down to 3rd level since you need 6000 XP to be 4th level. But if the character had 9000 XP, than they lose 3000 to go to 6000 and stay at 4th]
Card_Wizard 09-11-05, 11:43 AM	While I haven't had the experience of dealing with Energy drain as a DM personally, I'm just made sick by the idea of characters permenantly loosing levels just because a vampire touched them funny. (As a side note, where did the designers get the idea for vampires sucking life energy with their hands :confused: Call me ignorant, but I've never heard of a vampire myth where they steal anything other then blood, and perhaps mental well being if a psychic vampire.) The only change to the current energy drain system I would use despite my thoughts against it is instread of losing a real level, you simply keep the negative level on a failed at the end of the day fort save. You can try to lose it each day, applying its penalties as normal. For exmple, Tordek as a 5th level fighter with his party runs afoul of a vampire spawn and gets negative energy wacked twice, so he's got two negative levels on his person. At the end of the day, he makes his saves as per the normal system, passing one and failing the other. One level disappears as his mighty dwarven constitution restores his mojo, but the other one was too much to do at the same time, and thus remains. For a day (or longer) he's weaker then his full strength, but he is still somewhat close to his full power.
Crystal Monk 09-11-05, 12:08 PM	2) A new condition called 'Curst'. This is similar to Energy Drain, except that level is not affected. Instead the Curst character receives an unnamed penalty equal to the normal level loss to armor class and all attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and caster level. You might also apply it to benefits such as fast healing, spell resistance, etc (ie: set mechanical advantages). Those permanently curst would be considered extremely unlucky. They rarely succeed in their tasks, and bad things tend to happen to them (failed balance checks on a slope, failed diplomacy check, failed save, lower AC, etc). I think that this, or something similar, is the best way to handle Level Drain - simply a blanket -1 to all actions for every level the PC would otherwise lose. everything else would work the same way. this way, you get the negatives that should be part of the power without having to deal with XP loss or actual level loss. I never liked the idea of actually losing levels, not entirely sure why.
Avihs 09-11-05, 12:42 PM	One thing I've considered for level drain is that if a character loses a level, I don't take their level away, but I do take their XP down as normal. This way you skip having to worry about backtracking a level and losing their knowledge. However, it will take them longer to reach their next level so they still feel the effects quite a bit. Example: 4th level character at 8000 XP loses a level. They stay 4th level, but now they only have 4500 XP (half way between 3rd and 4th). They gain XP as if they were still 4th level, but now they need 5500 XP before reaching 5th level. If they take enough level drains to run out of XP, then they die/become undead/etc. just like normal. Also, I have seen a suggestion that instead of losing a level, you lose however much XP it took you to gain your last level. So in the same example up above, the character would lose 3000 XP (the amount needed to get from 3rd to 4th). They would end up with 5000 XP, just barely staying at 4th level, but having to start all over again on the XP trail. With your second method, if you come up against a creature that drains multiple levels, such as vampires = 2level loss, would you loose 6000xp or would it be 5000xp (3000xp [3rd to 4th] + 2000xp [2nd to 3rd])? Originally Posted by Aurotuli 2) A new condition called 'Curst'. This is similar to Energy Drain, except that level is not affected. Instead the Curst character receives an unnamed penalty equal to the normal level loss to armor class and all attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and caster level. You might also apply it to benefits such as fast healing, spell resistance, etc (ie: set mechanical advantages). Those permanently curst would be considered extremely unlucky. They rarely succeed in their tasks, and bad things tend to happen to them (failed balance checks on a slope, failed diplomacy check, failed save, lower AC, etc).I think that this, or something similar, is the best way to handle Level Drain - simply a blanket -1 to all actions for every level the PC would otherwise lose. everything else would work the same way. this way, you get the negatives that should be part of the power without having to deal with XP loss or actual level loss. I never liked the idea of actually losing levels, not entirely sure why. I'm tending to lean in this direction so far. What I currently thinking would be to use the "Curst" condition in unison with Arcade's suggestion of the "mini-death" where you lose the xp, ringing you down to the mid point of your previous level. Thanks for the continued responses guys. :)
Arcade 09-12-05, 08:24 AM	[QUOTE=Avihs]With your second method, if you come up against a creature that drains multiple levels, such as vampires = 2level loss, would you loose 6000xp or would it be 5000xp (3000xp [3rd to 4th] + 2000xp [2nd to 3rd])? [\QUOTE] I would think option 2, losing 5000 XP. Losing experience is painful enough. On a side note, losing levels is a pain in the neck. But restoration is a 4th level spell and only costs 280 gold to have someone cast it using the normal cost guidelines. By the time you're facing creatures with energy drain (around 3rd level), 280 gold is not that much of an expense. By the time you're 7th level, your cleric can cast it for free, so energy drain only becomes scary during the encounter it happens- when you need to make sure you don't lose more levels than you have. Much like ability damage.
weasel fierce 09-14-05, 01:46 PM	If you are concerned about level drain, dont use monsters that has it. They're supposed to be scary mo'fo's If you want to make it weaker, just make the level loss temporary, recovered at say, 1 level per week of rest If you're going for more of a final fantasy type of thing, make them recover in days, or even after a night of sleep.