Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Hedgewizard 09-11-07, 10:53 AM	Hey all, Been working on the below for quite a while, but haven't posted anything yet partially because I didn't think anyone would be all that interested, and partly because folk around here aren't always exactly constructive with the criticism from what I've seen. Since I spent so much time on it though I figured I'd post it anyway. The main idea is, as the threat title indicates, to regularize (and lower) the levels which all classes gain their abilities at. This was inspired by a number of things including: 1. I can't seem to find the link again, but there was a good article that discussed how in the translation of D&D levels to reality a character with 4 levels is quite exceptional. Since I personally like the lower levels and agreed with this, I thought I would re-design the classes so a level 4 character would have learned pretty much everything there is to know about his class, with any additional levels just moving into higher and higher mastery. 2. I also personally don't like the feeling of rushing to level up. For instance, when I play a barbarian, I never really feel like a “complete” barbarian until you gain damage reduction, but that is not until level 11. The same goes for other classes like monks. I find that if I get pretty much everything earlier it reduces 'build anxiety' and the focus on leveling.This also makes surviving at lower levels much easier, without having to do things like tripling the first hit die. 3. With all the prestige classes out there now, many people prestige class right out of there base class as soon as they can, which is usually after level 5. Having everything gained by 4 is sort of an in-game justification for this, as a character has learned most of the abilities granted to him by his training in his base class, and it also follows with the logic above that any character over level 4 or so is 'prestigious'. However, I also made a lot of other changes, such as a creating a new point buy system and also a sytem to regulate the amount of spells a divine caster gets, instead of having them automatically know everything, which closely matches the number of spells they would receive if only using core. I also gave the martial classes in general a much needed boost, and there's a balance system (albeit a rather abstract one, since it values all class features equally) which I used to redesign all the classes. If you decide to ready any of this and comment on it please keep in mind a couple of things: 1. I haven't tested this yet. It's based mostly on abstract reasoning as I said and not experience because I don't really have anyone to test it with. Of course, if you want to test it and let me know how it works I'd love to hear it. I also haven't tried doing anything like this before, so remember that as well. 2. Although a lot of it is copied from the SRD, there are a few key words or phrases in the descriptions and such that can change things considerably. I pasted from the SRD and worked with that, simply to reduce the amount of stuff I'd have to type. 3. There are likely still some typos in there. If something looks outrageous or nonsensical, like a sudden jump in a spells known table for instance, it's probably a typo. The formatting is also a little screwed up because I do not really know anything about making web pages. Well, having said all that, here's my stuff: http://thehedgewizard.007ihost.com/index.htm. Let me know what you think (politely).
The_Hedgewizard 09-14-07, 08:39 PM	So I was wondering why no one commented yet and then I went back to my own page and found out it was very slow loading and kept not connecting at all. So, I simply re-loaded it as a .pdf. It's still a bit slow, but since it only loads once it's not too bad. http://thehedgewizard.007ihost.com/TheHedgewizardsHouseRules.pdf You might have to click reload a couple times... (I need to find a better free hosting page :-\ )
The_Hedgewizard 09-15-07, 11:49 AM	Okay, apparently the site I'm using is only loading about 1/3 of the time. Can anyone point me to a decent free hosting site? I just want to load a .pdf. . .
Ra-Tiel 09-16-07, 04:52 PM	Okay, apparently the site I'm using is only loading about 1/3 of the time. Can anyone point me to a decent free hosting site? I just want to load a .pdf. . . AFAIK rapidshare.com or megaupload.com are free and host basically anything. But I'm not using those a lot, so I could be wrong. Anyways, your system looks... uhh... well... "interesting". Don't take it wrong, it doesn't look bad. However, it's quite unconventional in many regards. If you are still looking for ideas, perhaps the "Variant Rules" on http://www.d20srd.org/ and a completely point-based d20 (http://mxpb.wikispaces.com/) might help you. Happy gaming. :)
The_Hedgewizard 09-17-07, 09:58 AM	Anyways, your system looks... uhh... well... "interesting". Don't take it wrong, it doesn't look bad. However, it's quite unconventional in many regards. If you are still looking for ideas, perhaps the "Variant Rules" on http://www.d20srd.org/ Thanks, I guess.I definitely saw the Variant Rules on the SRD though, in fact about half the stuff is reworked from UA. I'll take a look at those hosting sites too, btw.
deathbane 09-17-07, 04:50 PM	Hey all, Been working on the below for quite a while, but haven't posted anything yet partially because I didn't think anyone would be all that interested, and partly because folk around here aren't always exactly constructive with the criticism from what I've seen. Since I spent so much time on it though I figured I'd post it anyway. The main idea is, as the threat title indicates, to regularize (and lower) the levels which all classes gain their abilities at. This was inspired by a number of things including: 1. I can't seem to find the link again, but there was a good article that discussed how in the translation of D&D levels to reality a character with 4 levels is quite exceptional. Since I personally like the lower levels and agreed with this, I thought I would re-design the classes so a level 4 character would have learned pretty much everything there is to know about his class, with any additional levels just moving into higher and higher mastery. 2. I also personally don't like the feeling of rushing to level up. For instance, when I play a barbarian, I never really feel like a “complete” barbarian until you gain damage reduction, but that is not until level 11. The same goes for other classes like monks. I find that if I get pretty much everything earlier it reduces 'build anxiety' and the focus on leveling.This also makes surviving at lower levels much easier, without having to do things like tripling the first hit die. 3. With all the prestige classes out there now, many people prestige class right out of there base class as soon as they can, which is usually after level 5. Having everything gained by 4 is sort of an in-game justification for this, as a character has learned most of the abilities granted to him by his training in his base class, and it also follows with the logic above that any character over level 4 or so is 'prestigious'. However, I also made a lot of other changes, such as a creating a new point buy system and also a sytem to regulate the amount of spells a divine caster gets, instead of having them automatically know everything, which closely matches the number of spells they would receive if only using core. I also gave the martial classes in general a much needed boost, and there's a balance system (albeit a rather abstract one, since it values all class features equally) which I used to redesign all the classes. If you decide to ready any of this and comment on it please keep in mind a couple of things: 1. I haven't tested this yet. It's based mostly on abstract reasoning as I said and not experience because I don't really have anyone to test it with. Of course, if you want to test it and let me know how it works I'd love to hear it. I also haven't tried doing anything like this before, so remember that as well. 2. Although a lot of it is copied from the SRD, there are a few key words or phrases in the descriptions and such that can change things considerably. I pasted from the SRD and worked with that, simply to reduce the amount of stuff I'd have to type. 3. There are likely still some typos in there. If something looks outrageous or nonsensical, like a sudden jump in a spells known table for instance, it's probably a typo. The formatting is also a little screwed up because I do not really know anything about making web pages. Well, having said all that, here's my stuff: http://thehedgewizard.007ihost.com/index.htm. Let me know what you think (politely). Front-loading a class is never good. Players don't have anything to look forward to later, and certain abilities will make then to powerful at low levels. I personally don't agree with it.
The_Hedgewizard 09-17-07, 06:23 PM	Well, the entire point is that I disagree with the idea of "having something to look forward to". Most campaigns don't (or really shouldn't in my opinion) go past about 10-12 tops, and giving stuff at the high levels makes me personally feel like I need to rush to level up to have my character feel complete. If all classes are front-loaded and you restrict multi-classing a bit (which I'm sure is controversial, but then this is supposed to be a class-based system), then it's not really a balance issue, just one of preference, and if it's not your preference then it's of course not for you. I'm more interested in hearing about potential mistakes and such then just hearing people disagree with the basic motive behind it, but thanks for your comment anyway.
Ra-Tiel 09-18-07, 04:58 AM	Front-loading a class is never good. Players don't have anything to look forward to later, and certain abilities will make then to powerful at low levels. I personally don't agree with it. Depends. I see frontloading only as a problem if it is unevenly done across all classes. For example, the v3.0 paladin (or the swashbuckler) are bad examples, because other classes (barbarian, monk, ...) had to wait into the mid/high levels before they got their useful or powerful abilities. If you now make all classes equally frontloaded, that point is moot as all stand on an equal footing again. And I guess this is what The_Hedgewizard tries to achieve.
Rhialto 09-18-07, 07:16 AM	As the OP noted, the classes *as written* reach the high levels of realism by character level 4 or so, and few, if any, real people are as high as level 7-8. If you front-load characters this way, it will change the above equation, and will simply mean that level 4 becomes the new "once in a generation" uber-human when contemplating realism. Now, I understand realism is a specious argument generally in d20, but since teh OP used that as one foundation for doing this redesign, it seems a little silly to use it as a justification and then break down that very justification.
deathbane 09-18-07, 11:39 AM	Depends. I see frontloading only as a problem if it is unevenly done across all classes. For example, the v3.0 paladin (or the swashbuckler) are bad examples, because other classes (barbarian, monk, ...) had to wait into the mid/high levels before they got their useful or powerful abilities. If you now make all classes equally frontloaded, that point is moot as all stand on an equal footing again. And I guess this is what The_Hedgewizard tries to achieve. You can't equally frontload characters because some classes just have better abilities than others, and they will be to powerful when fighting the lower level monsters. His idea is to give all the class abilities by 4th level. A monk would already be immune to hold person spells(his last ability makes him an outsider), have spell resistance, be immune to poisons and diseases. A dread necromancer would become a lich at 4th level unless he was made to wait until level 11, but then it is not fair to wait while the others do not. Now if he decides to spread the abilities out differently it might work better, but eveything by four won't work.
The_Hedgewizard 09-18-07, 11:43 AM	...A monk would already be immune to hold person spells(his last ability makes him an outsider). . . . . . Did any of you perchance actually read what I wrote in it? This is not the case. Please actually read it before commenting on it,thanks.
deathbane 09-18-07, 01:03 PM	. . . Did any of you perchance actually read what I wrote in it? This is not the case. Please actually read it before commenting on it,thanks. If you are asking did I read through all 32 pages then the answer is no. I read the paladin, cleric, and another class(don't remember) so I assumed that all special abilities would be given by 4th level. I am sure it took a great deal of time to make those 32 pages, but for purposes of a critique it is better to release the info in smaller portions. Assuming anything is wrong it is easier to fix one class at a time than to fix all of them.