Evil Healers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evil Healers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
I_roll_ones
01-09-08, 11:26 PM This started on an argument that I had with my current DM on a character concept that I said I was interested in while he was browsing the Healer class. And while the healer class is uh, attractive for cohorts, we got into an argument on if a healer type could be evil.

My argument is that a contingent of healers would be a valuable military resource. True, you could just raise them as undead, but that might hurt recruiting a tad, and a lower level can just spam CLW rather then try to make a powerful enough undead.

His was that healing used positive engery, which increased the amount of good and has a slight chance of backfiring on the evil god.

So while I do think that certain evil gods(Bane, for instance) would use healers, they are somewhat problematic.

On this vein, I was wondering two house rules(We tend to play home brew campaigns).

The first is some way for Evil clerics to use Inflict wounds to heal. Maybe spend a feat and they can only heal Evil people. This would be an issue as it would be a quick Detect Evil, but it would take up a higher spell slot and they would have to be injured in the first place. I also wonder if people can detect negative energy cast on themselves.

The second is a good necromancer class, where they use positive energy undead only, and use positive energy. They would create undead from willing spirits, perhaps deceased members of their own order. But since they are using positive energy, the alignment wouldn't just be CG or NG, and LG would be allowed as well. However, they do sorta run into the problem that people who don't know what they are might be inclined to make a mob if they see undead being made.

I wonder about the balance, but I think that it could be done since no one plays the healer anyway, so these might make healing more attractive.

Have these alternatives been in any of the books thus far?
pigknight
01-12-08, 11:26 PM CLW/ILW are not good/evil spells, you can heal the bbeg and you can harm the bbeg.
Neutronium_Dragon
01-13-08, 04:11 AM As above, healing (and inflict) spells are not aligned and can be used freely regardless of your alignment.

Spontaneous conversion is limited by alignment, but that's a class power which is separate from the spells themselves.

Healing is neither good or evil in itself. (The alignment books made that very clear.)
Talisman
01-14-08, 02:54 PM I don't see a problem with Option #1, but I also don't see the point. Is it worth a spell level to ensure that your evil healers never accidentally heal someone who's good? No. As has been mentioned, there's nothing inherently good or evil about the cure/inflict spells, any more than bandages are inherently good, or a knife is inherently evil.

Option #2 looks silly to me, but then, I hate the deathless to begin with.

Need an example of an evil healer? Semirhage, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semirhage) form Jordan's Wheel of Time series. A powerful healer, she became viciously sadistic and exacted a price in pain for her healing.

Oh, and "you could raise them as undead" doesn't always fly - just becuase they're evil, doesn't mean they embrace necromancy. Down with stereotypes!
JulesCARV
01-14-08, 03:18 PM I think that Gregory House's alignment is chaotic evil, but most people disagree with me and regard him as being CN or somesuch.

Anyway, certainly an evil favored soul who took a lot of healing spells would be as good at healing as any good guy. Evil clerics, however, are at a distinct disadvantage. One houseruled "system" I've created for clerics is planar mediumship (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816375) -- a way for clerics to use their magical powers without connection to any specific deity, belief, faith, or whatever. Well organized evil religions might encourage some of their clergy to become planar media so as to better serve as battlefield healers, while still retaining faith in their religion without drawing their power from it (much like rogues, fighters, psions, etc who have faith in the evil religion without drawing their power from it). Planar media who have the healing domain can spontaneously cast healing spells and turn undead even if they're evil, while planar media who have the death domain can spontaneously cast inflict spells and rebuke undead even if they're good. (without either of those domains, though, planar media are like clerics: evil inflicts/rebukes, good cures/turns, and neutral chooses to inflict/rebuke or cure/turn.)
I_roll_ones
01-16-08, 09:34 PM The issue being that evil clerics cannot spontaneously cast healing spells, and the healing domains are taken up in most settings I've seen by goody-goody two shoes gods. Not having to set healing spells is a pretty big boon if you want to heal, since you'll always have enough and it'll cut down on wasted spells.

Making being able to heal with negative energy was not a nerf, but meant to balance since a good cleric can't really damage anything but undead with their healing, but an evil cleric who heals with negative has better options, since they can heal and damage much more.

The positive energy doesn't make a spell inherently good, but it does increase the amount of good in the world. The fact that necromancy use negative energy is one of the reasons that it is considered evil and good characters aren't supposed to deal heavily in it and why good divine characters tend to want to kill undead. So I assume that positive energy isn't something that an evil god wants to increase in the world all the time. So, a way to heal with using the spells that they can spontaneously cast and don't cause issues on down the line would be the goal.
pigknight
01-21-08, 01:28 AM Necromancy is no more evil than evocation (was going to say conjuration but there is alteast 9 evil spells in that). You can use necromancy to destroy undead just as easily as you can create undead with it (and use those to destroy the other non-under your control undead).
Firaeki
01-21-08, 04:33 PM Healing can be evil, because of the way it can be used. For instance:
A man learns healing spells in order to become a great healer. He uses this magic to make himself the most populatr seller of healing potions, scrolls, and spells to people, until he gets enough money from his "Miracle Magic" that he sold so low that he can buy out or eliminate all other clerics, healers, and the like in the area. Now, as the only healer, he sells his healing for high prices, and controls trade with his money to prevent imports or exports. He also hires goons to hurt people, demand pay for loans, and take other forms of payment (the sick farmer's daughter for himself, demanding the son become one of his goons) in the event that they have no money.

So I don't see why healers can't be evil. And besides, the ranks of evil aren't stupid. They won't blow off healing just because there's positive energy involved.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
I_roll_ones 01-09-08, 11:26 PM	This started on an argument that I had with my current DM on a character concept that I said I was interested in while he was browsing the Healer class. And while the healer class is uh, attractive for cohorts, we got into an argument on if a healer type could be evil. My argument is that a contingent of healers would be a valuable military resource. True, you could just raise them as undead, but that might hurt recruiting a tad, and a lower level can just spam CLW rather then try to make a powerful enough undead. His was that healing used positive engery, which increased the amount of good and has a slight chance of backfiring on the evil god. So while I do think that certain evil gods(Bane, for instance) would use healers, they are somewhat problematic. On this vein, I was wondering two house rules(We tend to play home brew campaigns). The first is some way for Evil clerics to use Inflict wounds to heal. Maybe spend a feat and they can only heal Evil people. This would be an issue as it would be a quick Detect Evil, but it would take up a higher spell slot and they would have to be injured in the first place. I also wonder if people can detect negative energy cast on themselves. The second is a good necromancer class, where they use positive energy undead only, and use positive energy. They would create undead from willing spirits, perhaps deceased members of their own order. But since they are using positive energy, the alignment wouldn't just be CG or NG, and LG would be allowed as well. However, they do sorta run into the problem that people who don't know what they are might be inclined to make a mob if they see undead being made. I wonder about the balance, but I think that it could be done since no one plays the healer anyway, so these might make healing more attractive. Have these alternatives been in any of the books thus far?
pigknight 01-12-08, 11:26 PM	CLW/ILW are not good/evil spells, you can heal the bbeg and you can harm the bbeg.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-13-08, 04:11 AM	As above, healing (and inflict) spells are not aligned and can be used freely regardless of your alignment. Spontaneous conversion is limited by alignment, but that's a class power which is separate from the spells themselves. Healing is neither good or evil in itself. (The alignment books made that very clear.)
Talisman 01-14-08, 02:54 PM	I don't see a problem with Option #1, but I also don't see the point. Is it worth a spell level to ensure that your evil healers never accidentally heal someone who's good? No. As has been mentioned, there's nothing inherently good or evil about the cure/inflict spells, any more than bandages are inherently good, or a knife is inherently evil. Option #2 looks silly to me, but then, I hate the deathless to begin with. Need an example of an evil healer? Semirhage, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semirhage) form Jordan's Wheel of Time series. A powerful healer, she became viciously sadistic and exacted a price in pain for her healing. Oh, and "you could raise them as undead" doesn't always fly - just becuase they're evil, doesn't mean they embrace necromancy. Down with stereotypes!
JulesCARV 01-14-08, 03:18 PM	I think that Gregory House's alignment is chaotic evil, but most people disagree with me and regard him as being CN or somesuch. Anyway, certainly an evil favored soul who took a lot of healing spells would be as good at healing as any good guy. Evil clerics, however, are at a distinct disadvantage. One houseruled "system" I've created for clerics is planar mediumship (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816375) -- a way for clerics to use their magical powers without connection to any specific deity, belief, faith, or whatever. Well organized evil religions might encourage some of their clergy to become planar media so as to better serve as battlefield healers, while still retaining faith in their religion without drawing their power from it (much like rogues, fighters, psions, etc who have faith in the evil religion without drawing their power from it). Planar media who have the healing domain can spontaneously cast healing spells and turn undead even if they're evil, while planar media who have the death domain can spontaneously cast inflict spells and rebuke undead even if they're good. (without either of those domains, though, planar media are like clerics: evil inflicts/rebukes, good cures/turns, and neutral chooses to inflict/rebuke or cure/turn.)
I_roll_ones 01-16-08, 09:34 PM	The issue being that evil clerics cannot spontaneously cast healing spells, and the healing domains are taken up in most settings I've seen by goody-goody two shoes gods. Not having to set healing spells is a pretty big boon if you want to heal, since you'll always have enough and it'll cut down on wasted spells. Making being able to heal with negative energy was not a nerf, but meant to balance since a good cleric can't really damage anything but undead with their healing, but an evil cleric who heals with negative has better options, since they can heal and damage much more. The positive energy doesn't make a spell inherently good, but it does increase the amount of good in the world. The fact that necromancy use negative energy is one of the reasons that it is considered evil and good characters aren't supposed to deal heavily in it and why good divine characters tend to want to kill undead. So I assume that positive energy isn't something that an evil god wants to increase in the world all the time. So, a way to heal with using the spells that they can spontaneously cast and don't cause issues on down the line would be the goal.
pigknight 01-21-08, 01:28 AM	Necromancy is no more evil than evocation (was going to say conjuration but there is alteast 9 evil spells in that). You can use necromancy to destroy undead just as easily as you can create undead with it (and use those to destroy the other non-under your control undead).
Firaeki 01-21-08, 04:33 PM	Healing can be evil, because of the way it can be used. For instance: A man learns healing spells in order to become a great healer. He uses this magic to make himself the most populatr seller of healing potions, scrolls, and spells to people, until he gets enough money from his "Miracle Magic" that he sold so low that he can buy out or eliminate all other clerics, healers, and the like in the area. Now, as the only healer, he sells his healing for high prices, and controls trade with his money to prevent imports or exports. He also hires goons to hurt people, demand pay for loans, and take other forms of payment (the sick farmer's daughter for himself, demanding the son become one of his goons) in the event that they have no money. So I don't see why healers can't be evil. And besides, the ranks of evil aren't stupid. They won't blow off healing just because there's positive energy involved.