| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| gbnogkfs09-06-04, 03:17 PM | FIRST: I know, it's weird to ask official clarifications about officially optional rules, but then... there are two ways to build gestalts: fractional saves and BAB, or not. In the former case, nothing strange happens... In the latter, something weird begins to pop out: would you believe that it is possible to have a Wiz/Psion/Commoner 20th level total with +19 BAB? or a character with saves better than a plain Monk 20 even eliminating the +2 bonus at first level for classes other than the first picked)? Well, maybe you would, but I didn't until I tryied to build a couple of characters: the question is: how do you advance when selecting multiple (more than two) classes? what does "take the better progression" means when you are a 12th level gestalt-character Clr 8/Rog 8/Wiz 8? is it correct to do something like this: Wiz 1 / Commoner 1 BAB +0 SAVES +0 +0 +2 Wiz 2 / Psion 1 / Commoner 1 BAB +1 SAVES +0 +0 +4 that is, since the wiz BAB goes up by 1 at 2nd level, I take +1 BAB; and since Psion Will saves improves by 2 i get +2? and then: Wiz 3 / Psion 2 / Commoner 1 BAB +2 SAVES +1 +1 +5 since at Psi 2 I get +1 BAB and +1 Will saves while at Wiz 3 I get +1 Fort and Ref saves going on... W4/P3/C1 BAB +3 SAVES +2 +2 +6 W5/P4/C1 BAB +4 SAVES +2 +2 +7 W6/P5/C1 BAB +5 SAVES +3 +3 +8 W7/P6/C1 BAB +6 SAVES +4 +4 +9 W8/P7/C1 BAB +7 SAVES +4 +4 +10 W9/P8/C1 BAB +8 SAVES +5 +5 +11 W10/P9/C1 BAB +9 SAVES +6 +6 +12 (SAVES AS WIZ 20!!!!!!!) W11/P10/C1 BAB +10 SAVES +6 +6 +13 W12/P11/C1 BAB +11 SAVES +7 +7 +14 W13/P12/C1 BAB +12 SAVES +8 +8 +15 (SAVES BETTER THAN MONK 13) W14/P13/C1 BAB +13 SAVES +8 +8 +16 W15/P14/C1 BAB +14 SAVES +9 +9 +17 W16/P15/C1 BAB +15 SAVES +10 +10 +18 W17/P16/C1 BAB +16 SAVES +10 +10 +19 W18/P17/C1 BAB +17 SAVES +11 +11 +20 W19/P18/C1 BAB +18 SAVES +12 +12 +21 W20/P19/C1 BAB +19 SAVES +12 +12 +22 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: that character is way better than Wiz 20/Psion 20!!! (and i have changed one level of Psion for 1 level of COMMONER!) that is: there is a possibility to tweak the (apparently nerfing!!!!) BAB-and-SAVES rounding mechanic in your favour. Note there nothing of the like happens when using the fractional BAB and SAVES! So... how does the whole gestalt thing works? What is the spirit of the rules? |
| Deekin09-06-04, 05:14 PM | You are very confusning in your math. You only use the best part, and the fractional thing is compleatly unrlated to gestalt. |
| gbnogkfs09-06-04, 06:31 PM | You are very confusning in your math. You only use the best part, and the fractional thing is compleatly unrlated to gestalt. can you be a bit more specific and tell what's wrong with the progression and how you think it should be? |
| RaspK FOG09-06-04, 06:38 PM | First of all, gestalt characters are based on 2 classes. And to put it simply, it means: you get the better of any you might have. That means that you get the best BAB granted by any 1 of the classes you have chosen for your character level, and so on. A Brd/Sor would get the Avg BAB of the Brd, the High Ref and Will of the Brd (Will as well from Sor), the proficiencies of both, class skills of both, 6 + Int skill points per level, and the ability to cast spells as both a Brd and a Sor of his gestalt level. For example: the above character is a 5th-level Gestalt Brd/Sor. His BAB is equal to +3. His BFB is equal to +1. His BRB is equal to +4. His BWB is equal to +4. His skill points are (6 + Int) x (8 [NOTE: level + 3 to get skill points]). |
| gbnogkfs09-06-04, 06:49 PM | Unearthed Arcana speaks about Prestige Classes, so I suppose you can change class while advancing; and the optimization board is full of gestalt characters with 6 or more classes... |
| jagggar09-07-04, 12:34 AM | You use the best progression, not the best increase. All three classes have the Poor BAB, so you'd end up with +10 at 20th level. |
| gbnogkfs09-07-04, 04:55 AM | You use the best progression, not the best increase. All three classes have the Poor BAB, so you'd end up with +10 at 20th level. what does "the best progression" means when I take, say: 1st level of Ftr / Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz 3rd level of Wiz / Rog 4th level of Rog / Brb 5th level of Brb / Brd 6th level of Brd / Rgr 7th level of Rgr / Mnk 8th level of Mnk / Pal 9th level of Pal / Drd 10th level of Drd / Sor 11th level of Sor / PsW 12th level of PsW / Psi 13th level of Psi / Wil 14th level of Wil / Ftr ? :confused: |
| Kiri Sittori09-07-04, 10:44 AM | what does "the best progression" means when I take, say: 1st level of Ftr / Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz 3rd level of Wiz / Rog 4th level of Rog / Brb 5th level of Brb / Brd 6th level of Brd / Rgr 7th level of Rgr / Mnk 8th level of Mnk / Pal 9th level of Pal / Drd 10th level of Drd / Sor 11th level of Sor / PsW 12th level of PsW / Psi 13th level of Psi / Wil 14th level of Wil / Ftr ? :confused: In this rather obtuse example, you would have +1 at every level. But you would have the suckiest character EVER. :P |
| dantedarkstar09-07-04, 11:01 AM | Here's what I would do: Calculate each stat independently: BAB: Count how many levels with good BAB you have, how many with medium and how many with poor. Now, if you had 8 levels with good BAB, 5 with medium and 1 with poor (as in above example), your BAB would be +11 - just like Ftr 8/Rog 5/Wiz 1 (example classes with good, medium and poor BAB progression). Fort, Ref, Will: Count how many levels with good save you have and how many with poor. Do the same as with BAB. So let's say 12 levels with good Fort plus 2 levels with poor Fort give grand total +8 Fort - as Ftr 12/Wiz 2 And this also fixes problems with multiple same good save that can give ridiculous save bonuses even for non-gestalt characters. |
| RaspK FOG09-07-04, 12:50 PM | what does "the best progression" means? :confused: It means you take the best of each; you check which class gives you the best BAB and use that for your level (if a class of yours has a High BAB, it's that of a fighter of your level, and so on), and do the same with base save bonuses. A Gestalt Ftr/Wiz has a High BAB, a High BFB, a Poor BRB, and a High BWB. |
| gbnogkfs09-07-04, 02:18 PM | dantedarkstar: that's interesting :) (however, no level in the previous exemple has poor BAB) RaspK FOG: I was asking for characters with MORE THAN TWO classes :cool: |
| Crossover-Chronicler09-07-04, 03:56 PM | what does "the best progression" means when I take, say: 1st level of Ftr / Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz 3rd level of Wiz / Rog 4th level of Rog / Brb 5th level of Brb / Brd 6th level of Brd / Rgr 7th level of Rgr / Mnk 8th level of Mnk / Pal 9th level of Pal / Drd 10th level of Drd / Sor 11th level of Sor / PsW 12th level of PsW / Psi 13th level of Psi / Wil 14th level of Wil / FtrAs I understand it, a gestalt has two "progressions" - one for each half of the gestalt (gestalt doesn't replace normal multiclassing; it just allows the best of two classes at each level). Fractional bonuses would only apply to indivicual progressions rather than across them. I'm not sure how you intend this example to be read, but taking the same class on both sides of a Gestalt is kinda fishy (don't have my rulebook here to check...) note: decimals are not quite accurate due to rounding/truncation. Level 1: Fighter 1 | Cleric 1 Att+1|+.75 Fort+2.5|2.5 Ref+.3|+.3 Will+2.5|+.3 -so you Get Att+1 Fort+2.5 Ref+.3 Will+2.5 Level 2: Fighter 1/Wizard 1 | Cleric1 Att+1.5|+1.5 Fort+2.8|+3 Ref +.6|+.6 Will+2.8|+3 -meaning Att+1.5, Fort+3 Ref+.6 Will+3 Level 3: Fighter 1/Wizard 2 | Cleric 2/Rogue 1 Att +2|+2.25 Fort+3.1|3.3 Ref+.6|+3.1 Will+3.1|+3.3 -meaning Att+2.25 Fort+3.3 Ref+3.1 Will+3.3 [b]Level 4: Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Barbarian 1 | Cleric 2/Rogue 2 Att+3|+3 Fort +5.6|+3.6 Ref+1|+3.6 Will+3.4|+3.6 -meaning Att+3 Fort+5.6 Ref+3.6 and Will+3.6 ...and so on. |
| gbnogkfs09-07-04, 05:54 PM | As I understand it, a gestalt has two "progressions" - one for each half of the gestalt (gestalt doesn't replace normal multiclassing; it just allows the best of two classes at each level). Fractional bonuses would only apply to indivicual progressions rather than across them. I'm not sure how you intend this example to be read, but taking the same class on both sides of a Gestalt is kinda fishy (don't have my rulebook here to check...) note: decimals are not quite accurate due to rounding/truncation. Level 1: Fighter 1 | Cleric 1 Att+1|+.75 Fort+2.5|2.5 Ref+.3|+.3 Will+2.5|+.3 -so you Get Att+1 Fort+2.5 Ref+.3 Will+2.5 Level 2: Fighter 1/Wizard 1 | Cleric1 Att+1.5|+1.5 Fort+2.8|+3 Ref +.6|+.6 Will+2.8|+3 -meaning Att+1.5, Fort+3 Ref+.6 Will+3 Level 3: Fighter 1/Wizard 2 | Cleric 2/Rogue 1 Att +2|+2.25 Fort+3.1|3.3 Ref+.6|+3.1 Will+3.1|+3.3 -meaning Att+2.25 Fort+3.3 Ref+3.1 Will+3.3 [b]Level 4: Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Barbarian 1 | Cleric 2/Rogue 2 Att+3|+3 Fort +5.6|+3.6 Ref+1|+3.6 Will+3.4|+3.6 -meaning Att+3 Fort+5.6 Ref+3.6 and Will+3.6 ...and so on. I think to have understood the general interpretation tou have, but don't quite catch the whole of it. One thing is clear: everybody has get the gestalt as they wish :D |
| saethar09-07-04, 09:30 PM | The appropriate part of the rules from UA is: Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few cavets apply, however. Two features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day seperately. PrC rules. Emphasive mine. So if you are Fighter 1/Wizard 1 (+1 bab, +2 F, +0 R, +2 W) and the next level he takes Barbarian 1/Ranger 1 his total at level 2 would be +2 BAB, +4 F, +2 R, +2 W. If the character had gone Fighter 2/Wizard 2 at second level his total would be +2 BAB, +3 F, +0 R, +3 W. Make sense? Hopefully :-) Saethar :b: |
| starfire31109-08-04, 09:45 AM | what does "the best progression" means when I take, say: 1st level of Ftr / Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz 3rd level of Wiz / Rog 4th level of Rog / Brb 5th level of Brb / Brd 6th level of Brd / Rgr 7th level of Rgr / Mnk 8th level of Mnk / Pal 9th level of Pal / Drd 10th level of Drd / Sor 11th level of Sor / PsW 12th level of PsW / Psi 13th level of Psi / Wil 14th level of Wil / Ftr ? :confused: I will just do the first 10 levels to make it easy 1st: Ftr 1/ Clr 1 BAB +1(High) Fort +2(good) Ref +0(poor) Will +2(good) 2nd: Clr 2/ Wiz 1 BAB +1(Average) Fort +3(good) Ref +0(poor) Will +3(good) 3rd: Wiz 2/ Rog 1 BAB +2(Average) Fort +3(good) Ref +2(good) Will +3(good) 4th: Rog 2/ Brb 1 BAB +3(High) Fort +4(good) Ref +3(good) Will +3(poor) 5th: Brb 2 / Brd 1 BAB +4(High) Fort +4(good) Ref +3(good) Will +4(good) 6th: Brd 2/ Rgr 1 BAB +5(High) Fort +5(good) Ref +4(good) Will +4(good) 7th: Rgr 2/ Mnk 1 BAB +6(High) Fort +5(good) Ref +4(good) Will +5(good) 8th: Mnk 2/ Pal 1 BAB +7(High) Fort +6(good) Ref +5(good) Will +5(good) 9th: Pal 2/ Drd 1 BAB +8(High) Fort +6(good) Ref +6(poor) Will +6(good) 10th: Drd 2 / Sor 1 BAB +9(Avg) Fort +7(good) Ref +6(poor) Will +6(good) At least this is how I would do it. |
| gbnogkfs09-08-04, 02:08 PM | men (or women)... I can't catch a single line of what you're saying... :confused: That was just a curiosity, however... |
| MushroomSpore09-08-04, 03:07 PM | men (or women)... I can't catch a single line of what you're saying... :confused: It's been explained to you repeatedly in the simplest terms possible. With all due respect, is English not your first language? Because otherwise, I'm at a loss as to how much clearer anyone can make this. |
| gbnogkfs09-08-04, 08:34 PM | It's been explained to you repeatedly in the simplest terms possible. With all due respect, is English not your first language? Because otherwise, I'm at a loss as to how much clearer anyone can make this. it is not, but I can cope with it quite well. I don't want to be annoying, the whole stuff is not really important: they're just optional rules everybody can interpret as they wish... but, simply said, and not wanting to be offensive at all, the other posters' "explanations" are not what I would call an "exhaustive clarification". What have I to understand from: 1st: Ftr 1/ Clr 1 BAB +1(High) Fort +2(good) Ref +0(poor) Will +2(good) 2nd: Clr 2/ Wiz 1 BAB +1(Average) Fort +3(good) Ref +0(poor) Will +3(good) 3rd: Wiz 2/ Rog 1 BAB +2(Average) Fort +3(good) Ref +2(good) Will +3(good) 4th: Rog 2/ Brb 1 BAB +3(High) Fort +4(good) Ref +3(good) Will +3(poor) 5th: Brb 2 / Brd 1 BAB +4(High) Fort +4(good) Ref +3(good) Will +4(good) 6th: Brd 2/ Rgr 1 BAB +5(High) Fort +5(good) Ref +4(good) Will +4(good) 7th: Rgr 2/ Mnk 1 BAB +6(High) Fort +5(good) Ref +4(good) Will +5(good) 8th: Mnk 2/ Pal 1 BAB +7(High) Fort +6(good) Ref +5(good) Will +5(good) 9th: Pal 2/ Drd 1 BAB +8(High) Fort +6(good) Ref +6(poor) Will +6(good) 10th: Drd 2 / Sor 1 BAB +9(Avg) Fort +7(good) Ref +6(poor) Will +6(good) ???? why the 2nd level is listed as "BAB +1(Average)"? what does that mean? What's the interpretation? that a 2nd level character with average BAB progression has BAB +1, so the gestalt character has BAB +1? why the 10th level is listed "BAB +9(Avg)"? what's the meaning of those "good" & "poor" labels regarding SAVES when the increases all looks unrelated from them? what's the meaning of: Level 1: Fighter 1 | Cleric 1 Att+1|+.75 Fort+2.5|2.5 Ref+.3|+.3 Will+2.5|+.3 -so you Get Att+1 Fort+2.5 Ref+.3 Will+2.5 Level 2: Fighter 1/Wizard 1 | Cleric1 Att+1.5|+1.5 Fort+2.8|+3 Ref +.6|+.6 Will+2.8|+3 -meaning Att+1.5, Fort+3 Ref+.6 Will+3 Level 3: Fighter 1/Wizard 2 | Cleric 2/Rogue 1 Att +2|+2.25 Fort+3.1|3.3 Ref+.6|+3.1 Will+3.1|+3.3 -meaning Att+2.25 Fort+3.3 Ref+3.1 Will+3.3 [b]Level 4: Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Barbarian 1 | Cleric 2/Rogue 2 Att+3|+3 Fort +5.6|+3.6 Ref+1|+3.6 Will+3.4|+3.6 -meaning Att+3 Fort+5.6 Ref+3.6 and Will+3.6 ????? what's the difference between "/" and "|" in that description? where in the book does they explain that there are "two sides" in a gestalt characters? etc... What I have understood, is that the rules are not clear at all, and all what they do is creating an inspiration over which you can build your own campaign; the exact rules are just not important. Sorry guys, I was just replying to MushroomSpore, no offence is wanted; thanks very well for your contributions :) |
| philopharynx09-08-04, 09:02 PM | One way I use to check the characters is this - a gestalt character can never be better than a single-classed character at the same level. (they are good at more things, but never better) So a 5th level gestalt character can never have more than +5 bab, +4 to any save, 8*(8+int bonus+human bonus) skill points, 5 caster levels in any specific class, etc. Also, gestalt rules do not allow more than two classes per level, at least as presented in Unearthed Arcana. |
| MushroomSpore09-08-04, 09:15 PM | ...ow, my brain. :) I think your main problem is that you're trying to learn this in the most complicated way possible. (And your English is pretty good for someone who wasn't raised with it. :) ) Let's take the simplest method of gestalt, and-as I understand it-the way it was really meant to be done. That is to say, only using *two* classes, period. For my example, I'll be using fighter/sorcerer. -Fighter uses d10, sorcerer uses d4. d10 is better, so this gestalt gets d10 + Con modifier hit points at every level. -Fighter uses the best attack bonus progression (+1 at every level), sorcerer uses the worst attack progression (+1 at every even level). The fighter's is better, so this gestalt gets +1 base attack bonus at every level. -Both classes get 2 + Int skill points. Since neither one is better, you just stick with 2+Int skill points. However, the list of class skills for this gestalt is a full combination of the fighter and sorcerer lists. -The fighter has a good fortitude save, therefore, so does this gestalt. The sorcerer has a good will save, so this gestalt uses the good will save progression. Neither has a good reflex save, so they stick with the low one. (In simpler terms, you can just look at the cleric's saves for this gestalt. Fort and Will good, Reflex bad.) -The fighter gets lots of proficiencies with weapons and armor. The sorcerer only gets simple weapons. The fighter's proficiencies, being better, are what you use. (Though you still have to worry about arcane spell failure.) -The fighter gets his bonus feats. The sorcerer gets his familiar and spells. The gestalt gets both, at the levels appropriate. Therefore, at level 1, you have: 1d10 hit points, +1 BAB, +2 Fortitude, +0 Reflex, +2 Will. (2 + Int) x4 skill points, and an extra four if you're playing human; skills can be chosen from both the fighter and sorcerer lists. You're proficient with all simple and martial weapons, shields, and all armor. You can have a familiar, and you know and cast spells as a first level sorcerer. You also have a bonus fighter feat. At level 20, you have 20d10 hit points, +20/+15/+10/+5 base attack bonus, +12 Fortitude base save, +6 Reflex base save, +12 Will base save. You have (2+Int) x 23 skill points, and an extra 23 if you're playing a human; all skills are chosen from the fighter and sorcerer skill lists. You have the proficiencies, etc. You have the familiar of a level 20 sorcerer, the spells known and per day of a level 20 sorcerer, and the crapload of bonus feats that a 20th level fighter has, in addition to normal character-level feats. All the levels in between follow the rules set up there. *pant wheeze* Using gestalt to mix in a dozen classes at once is both somewhat against the spirit of the rules and also REALLY INSANELY confusing. I don't recommend it at all. Besides, it will leave you with the abilities of a lot of low-level characters, and none of the good stuff. :) |
| MushroomSpore09-08-04, 09:19 PM | Also, just a nitpick, but in that build you attempt to have barbarian and bard (nonlawful only) and monk and paladin (lawful only) levels. That is impossible without losing abilities (no barbarian rage, cannot gain barbarian or bard levels if lawful; NO paladin abilities whatsoever, possibly lose some monk abilities, cannot gain monk or paladin levels if chaotic). Unless you have some serious house rules in your campaign, in which case it's your business. :) |
| RaspK FOG09-08-04, 09:22 PM | I'll reiterate what I have post earlier, also quoting from the book: In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don't overlap.To put it simply, you cannot choose more than 2 classes for a gestalt character combination. The book goes on, explaining exactly what is to happen; taking into account the fact that fractional BAB and BSB are included as an option RIGHT THERE is like pointing out to any person who would like to make a gestalt character that if he takes multi-gestalt combinations he is to use it his benefit if he likes. Now, let us consider the above example (using non-fractional values as PHB): 1st level of Ftr / Clr --> +1 BAB, +2 F, +0 R, +2 W, 1st lvl Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz --> +1 BAB, +3 F, +0 R, +3 W, 2nd lvl Clr, 1st lvl Wiz 3rd level of Wiz / Rog --> +2 BAB, +3 F, +2 R, +4 W, 2nd lvl Clr, 2nd lvl Wiz 4th level of Rog / Brb --> +3 BAB, +5 F, etc... Generally, I would use a more balanced version: Count BAB and BSB as if taking levels in appropriate progressions; that is, a character such as the above would gain his BAB and BSB according to his total in each progression (a variant I have been using with non-gestalt multiclassed characters for a while). |
| gbnogkfs09-08-04, 10:50 PM | well... the rules are perfectly clear when you limit the character to two classes only. I'm not trying to understand it in the most complicated way possible: I'm trying to learn THE complicated way, since the simple one (the two-classes-only version) is not a problem. :cool: continuing to cite UA, we have: "each times he (the character) gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspect of each, and applies them to his characteristics", so I hope we can agree that a gestalt character can have more than two classes, and that doing so is not against the spirit of the gestalt rules. (besides, we can keep reading just a few more lines and we see the book speaking about prestige classes and prerequisites, or jump five minutes in the character optimization boards and see threads full of multiclassed gestalt characters). Also, I didn't take more than two classes each level and OF COURSE the multitasking gestalt build was just an example to try to understand how the whole stuff works and is fairly insensitive to alignment matters of actual role play. now, let's have a close look to the example RaspK FOG gives us: 1st level of Ftr / Clr --> +1 BAB, +2 F, +0 R, +2 W, 1st lvl Clr that is clear: the fighter gives BAB +1 and the cleric gives +0, so you take the better and take BAB +1 the fighter gives +2 fort save and the cleric +0, so you take +2 the fighter gives +0 will save and the cleric +2, so you take +2 both the fighter and cleric give +0 ref save, so you take +0 now the tricky part: 2nd level of Clr / Wiz --> +1 BAB, +3 F, +0 R, +3 W, 2nd lvl Clr, 1st lvl Wiz why does this level give no BAB increase? what is the logic behind that? is it something akin to dantedarkstar's rules posted above? if so, where do you take those rules from? I can't read them anywhere in the book... and what about the saves? why don't I take the +2 will save from my 1st wizard level? thanks again for your patience in continuing this mindboggling thread :) |
| MushroomSpore09-09-04, 12:31 AM | 1st level of Ftr / Clr --> +1 BAB, +2 F, +0 R, +2 W, 1st lvl Clr 2nd level of Clr / Wiz --> +1 BAB, +3 F, +0 R, +3 W, 2nd lvl Clr, 1st lvl Wiz why does this level give no BAB increase? what is the logic behind that? Actually, in my opinion, it should. You are now a ftr1-wiz1/clr 2. A third level cleric gets +1 base attack bonus (I think, for a total of +2). EDIT AGAIN: Good lord, where is my brain? First I got cleric and wizard levels mixed, now I think you're third level in the middle of my sentence. Too much class today. :D The *second* level of cleric should net you +1 attack bonus, since for this level, you are using whichever is better: the increase of a second-level cleric or a first-level wizard. Back to original post: (nonsenical sentence wherein I use much bad math is edited out) It really is a mess, and this is why triple/quadruple classing is not usually a good idea. The record-keeping gets soul-killing. :) and what about the saves? why don't I take the +2 will save from my 1st wizard level? Because that's just a whole new bunch of wrong waiting to happen. :) Rather than risk that can of worms, I think you *ought* to treat your will save as simply being second level in a class with good will saves (in other words, a total base will of +3). I am *pretty* sure that UA says to do this, but I could be off. Otherwise you can end up with some seriously sick stats; it's an odd problem to be sure, you don't have to worry about this with base attack bonus stacking, since no matter what you can never have better BAB than a fighter of equal level. And again, the book-keeping is horrific if you try to start your save bonus chart over at the initial +2 every time you toss in a new class. Just because you *can* technically be a gestalt fighter 1-wiz1-clr1-mnk1/drd1-rog1-rng1-sor1, doesn't mean you SHOULD. It is a godawful mess, and in most cases an incoherent (and seriously gimped at everything) character. :) |
| RaspK FOG09-09-04, 04:21 AM | BAB is really erroneously written on my part. As for the whole thing, read my final statement: should make my opinion clear (in fact, the book makes apparent that that's the way to go, with the exception it goes based on class-based bonuses, not progression-based bonuses). If it doesn't read the following lines: Write down 4 columns and put a title above each one of them: Attack, Fort, Ref, and Will respectively. On the left of these columns, write down these 3 lines: High, Average, Poor (saves have no average under core rules, but many people use them anyway). Write down the values that correspond to its newly-formed cell according to your total level in that progression. For example, a character with 4 cleric, 2 fighter, 3 ranger, and 1 rogue level should note: BAB: +5/+3/+0; Fort: +6/-/+0; Ref: +4/-/+1; Will +4/-/+2 |
| starfire31109-09-04, 09:01 AM | now the tricky part: 2nd level of Clr / Wiz --> +1 BAB, +3 F, +0 R, +3 W, 2nd lvl Clr, 1st lvl Wiz why does this level give no BAB increase? what is the logic behind that? is it something akin to dantedarkstar's rules posted above? if so, where do you take those rules from? I can't read them anywhere in the book... and what about the saves? why don't I take the +2 will save from my 1st wizard level? thanks again for your patience in continuing this mindboggling thread :) NP, a quick key for my previous post that you found confusing the words in parenthesis(High) are the type of bonus that you are taking at that level. So at 1 ftr/ 1 clr you are taking the +1 BAB(High) from fighter, +2 fort(good) form Fighter, +0(poor) from fighter, +2 Will(Good) from Cleric So at 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr You decided to take your first level in an average BAB, what kind of bonus do you get for your 1st level in an average BAB, you get a +0, so you now have a +1 BAB(average), You now take the good fort save from cleric, at second level in a good fort save you have a +3 fort(Good) save, then you take poor reflex save from cleric, you have +0 Ref(poor), then you take good Will from Wizard giving you your second level in a good will save, this gives a +3 Will(good) So this character has 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr +1 BAB, +3 Fort, +0 Ref, + 3 Will At least that is how I do it. |
| MushroomSpore09-09-04, 09:52 AM | So at 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr You decided to take your first level in an average BAB, what kind of bonus do you get for your 1st level in an average BAB, you get a +0, so you now have a +1 BAB(average), So this character has 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr +1 BAB, At least that is how I do it. I can see your logic, really. IMC, we'd rule that you're gestalting your *second* level of cleric with wizard, and thus get +1 BAB as normal for a cleric. (Which is also along the same lines as you wouldn't start your saves over, but track it as being second level in a good Fortitude class, and second level in a good Will class.) Either could work, I suppose. It's making my mind hurt, though, so I'm gonna leave the topic alone until after lunch. ;) |
| Kiri Sittori09-09-04, 09:57 AM | The hard part is finding a way to explain this in a way that makes sense. 1. BAB: Imagine, if you will, that there are three BAB Classes. To use UA's generic-class names for the most part: Warrior = 1/1 Expert = 3/4 Mage = 1/2 Now, if one of the gestalttet classes is a 1/1, you gained a BAB Class Level in warrior. If you didn't take a 1/1, but did take a 3/4, you gain a BABCL in Expert. If you only took 1/2's (like wiz/sor,) you get a Mage BABCL. Then, you figure out yer BAB based on these "class levels." So, for the first four levels of yer obtuse build: L1: Ftr/Clr = Warrior L2: Clr/Wiz = Expert L3: Wiz/Rog = Expert L4: Rog/Bbn = Warrior Thus, this build is the same as a War2/Exp2... which is a +3 BAB. This is supported by the following texts. Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the two classes. Base Saving Throw Bonus: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2 --- taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class. Clearly, the progression (Dante's argument above) is what's important, not the actual value. It's also supported (in refutation of yer wiz/psi/commoner +19 BAB) by common sense: if you take nothing but Poor attack progressions, the result should not be anything but a Poor attack-progression result. |
| kdyal09-09-04, 11:31 AM | The hard part is finding a way to explain this in a way that makes sense. 1. BAB: Imagine, if you will, that there are three BAB Classes. To use UA's generic-class names for the most part: Warrior = 1/1 Expert = 3/4 Mage = 1/2 Now, if one of the gestalttet classes is a 1/1, you gained a BAB Class Level in warrior. If you didn't take a 1/1, but did take a 3/4, you gain a BABCL in Expert. If you only took 1/2's (like wiz/sor,) you get a Mage BABCL. Then, you figure out yer BAB based on these "class levels." So, for the first four levels of yer obtuse build: L1: Ftr/Clr = Warrior L2: Clr/Wiz = Expert L3: Wiz/Rog = Expert L4: Rog/Bbn = Warrior Actually, it should go something like this: L1: Ftr1 (+1BAB)/Clr1 (+0BAB)=+1 L2: Wiz1 (+0BAB)/Clr2 (+1BAB)=+1 L3: Wiz2 (+1BAB)/Rog1 (+0BAB)=+1 L4: Bbn1 (+1BAB)/Rog2 (+1BAB)=+1 etc. |
| starfire31109-09-04, 11:55 AM | Actually, it should go something like this: L1: Ftr1 (+1BAB)/Clr1 (+0BAB)=+1 L2: Wiz1 (+0BAB)/Clr2 (+1BAB)=+1 L3: Wiz2 (+1BAB)/Rog1 (+0BAB)=+1 L4: Bbn1 (+1BAB)/Rog2 (+1BAB)=+1 etc. I dont like this interpretation of the gestalt rules because it is broken. as the orginal poster already showed this would allow a Wizard 20/Commoner 1-Psion 19 to have this would allow a BAB of +19 this is better than a Rogue 20/Monk 20 Why should a Wizard/Psion be a better fighter than a Rogue/Monk |
| kdyal09-09-04, 12:55 PM | I dont like this interpretation of the gestalt rules because it is broken. as the orginal poster already showed this would allow a Wizard 20/Commoner 1-Psion 19 to have this would allow a BAB of +19 this is better than a Rogue 20/Monk 20 Why should a Wizard/Psion be a better fighter than a Rogue/Monk I think I see what you're saying, but that problem is solved by 5 seconds of DM common sense rather than a need for mechanics (Poor/Poor=Poor) |
| Kiri Sittori09-09-04, 01:21 PM | Actually, it should go something like this: L1: Ftr1 (+1BAB)/Clr1 (+0BAB)=+1 L2: Wiz1 (+0BAB)/Clr2 (+1BAB)=+1 L3: Wiz2 (+1BAB)/Rog1 (+0BAB)=+1 L4: Bbn1 (+1BAB)/Rog2 (+1BAB)=+1 etc. No, actually. Watch the first two levels of this build. L1: Ftr1/Clr1 L2: Wiz1/Clr2 You say this "should" be a BAB +2... for a Ftr1/Clr2/Wiz1. Watch the ball. L1: Wiz1/Clr1 L2: Ftr1/Clr2 I simply swapped the first two levels. And this build only has a +1 BAB... for a Ftr1/Clr2/Wiz1. Now, please tell me why yer F1/C2/W1 is better than mine. |
| gbnogkfs09-09-04, 01:59 PM | :D I'm beginning to laugh hard... now everybody is trying to explain to the others how their interpretation goes and why the others' are wrong with endless numbers' listing :cool: I suggest, for the mental health of us all, that we calm down this, stop the thread, and come back being great friends ;) I think starfire311 caught my initian point: results compared with common sense and Kiri Sittori discovered an interesting non commutative property of some gestalt building rules... it's funny, maybe, but far from having a roleplaying value... :) |
| starfire31109-09-04, 02:12 PM | I think I see what you're saying, but that problem is solved by 5 seconds of DM common sense rather than a need for mechanics (Poor/Poor=Poor) Actually implementing a mechanic allows you to apply it consistantly across the board rather than how the DM feels like interpreting it at that moment. And most of the time the mechanic that I am talking about is the common sense interpretation, once the DM has had a chance to really look at it. As I think has become obvious because other posters(Kiri and MushroomSpore) knew what I was talking about immediatly. And if a DM could solve this problem with 5 seconds of Common Sense, then why did you post this. Originally Posted by kdyal L1: Ftr1 (+1BAB)/Clr1 (+0BAB)=+1 L2: Wiz1 (+0BAB)/Clr2 (+1BAB)=+1 L3: Wiz2 (+1BAB)/Rog1 (+0BAB)=+1 L4: Bbn1 (+1BAB)/Rog2 (+1BAB)=+1 Why would a character that only has 2 levels that grant full attack bonus be able to get a full attack bonus. Heck the combo you made has a better attack bonus than L1: Monk( +0 BAB)/Rogue (+0 BAB) = +0 L2: Ranger(+1 BAB)/Fighter (+1 BAB) = +1 L3: Ranger(+1 BAB)/Fighter (+1 BAB) = +1 L4: Ranger(+1 BAB)/Fighter (+1 BAB) = +1 Oh well I guess I am just trying to find balance in a crazy unbalanced rule to begin with. |
| starfire31109-09-04, 02:13 PM | :D I'm beginning to laugh hard... now everybody is trying to explain to the others how their interpretation goes and why the others' are wrong with endless numbers' listing :cool: I suggest, for the mental health of us all, that we calm down this, stop the thread, and come back being great friends ;) I think starfire311 caught my initian point: results compared with common sense and Kiri Sittori discovered an interesting non commutative property of some gestalt building rules... it's funny, maybe, but far from having a roleplaying value... :) This has probably been the best post on the thread |
| saethar09-09-04, 08:55 PM | The RaW makes it very simple. You take the best aspect of the two classes chosen for any particular level. Also, not giving the +2 BSB for the first level of a class violates the RaW for multiclassing, and the rules for gestalt do not have anything which allows you to do this. Obviously any particular GM can do whatever they want, but the RaW is very simple and very easy to understand. If you think the RaW allows for characters which are too powerful you probably shouldn't be using the gestalt rules. Saethar :b: |
| Celerian09-10-04, 02:53 AM | Here's a semi-related question: If you have a gestalt character that has a bonus feat progression from both classes, do the progressions overlap or stack (i.e., on the levels where they would get a bonus feat from both classes, do they get feats from both of their classes or only one)? Human gestalt Ftr 2/Sam 2 (OA Sam, not CW Sam) gets a bonus fighter feat at 1st and 2nd levels, and a bonus samurai feat at 2nd level. Would he have three bonus feats or two? (Edited because I'm a bit of a grammar nazi with myself and I left out some words.) |
| saethar09-10-04, 03:18 AM | I would allow it, since they are not the same ability, even if they are similar. For example if wiz2/sor2 both get arcane spell progression, because they are similar - but not the same. The RaW don't give an example using bonus feats - if memory serves me (books at home, me at work) the only example they give is uncanny dodge (which you get at the "faster" rate). Very good question actually. Like I said, I've always assumed that you would get both. Remind me, do the OA sam pull from the same list as fighters (with OA stuff added obviously)? Saethar :b: |
| Celerian09-10-04, 03:41 AM | OA sam pulls from various subsets of the fighter list (except for the feats that have a requisite fighter level) depending on clan style (Crane feat list is different from Unicorn feat list is different from Crab feat list). There's also a special type of feat (technique feats) that the sam can take as bonus feats (as long as they're a member of the clan that technique belongs to), but the fighter can't, although anyone from the proper clan can take them as their character level feats. |
| saethar09-10-04, 06:42 AM | I'd probably let the character get both feats then - it's not that over powering (as opposed to getting SA twice in one level, or something similar) and it's really not the same "same ability" - or even an ability at all. Saethar :b: |
| starfire31109-10-04, 09:11 AM | Ofcourse they would stack. So saethar, you dont think it is a flaw that a Wizard 20/Commoner 1-Psion 19 would have a BAB of +19 where a Wizard 20/Psion 20 would have BAB of +10 and a Wizard 20/Psion 19- Commoner 1 would have a BAB of +10. That is obviously a flaw in the RAW and not what they intended when introducing the houserule... And since it is absolutly a houserule, I have no problem taking the idea and implementing it how it should be. And yes I do have a problem with Gestalt characters being too powerful. Everything has a context and I certainly believe that Gestalt should be balanced within its context. Nothing should be too powerful for what it is, if something is too powerful the DM needs to take measures to balance it for the context. Yes I know many people will respond to this without actually reading it, so I will say it again, to avoid having to say it again in a future post. Gestalt in and of it self is not too powerful, but when there is the potential for abuse that has been illustrated, I think the DM just needs to take some corrective measures to make all the gestalt characters have similar power levels, or else there is no reason not to play a wizard 20/Fighter 1-Cleric 19.... this character will have +20 BAB at 20th level cast as a 20th level wizard and as a 19th level clereic. Actually every character in the group should play this character, because it will clearly be the most powerful build anyone can come up with. 2 Full caster Progression, 2 good saves and full BAB what isnt to love. |
| saethar09-10-04, 09:54 PM | Ofcourse they would stack. So saethar, you dont think it is a flaw that a Wizard 20/Commoner 1-Psion 19 would have a BAB of +19 where a Wizard 20/Psion 20 would have BAB of +10 and a Wizard 20/Psion 19- Commoner 1 would have a BAB of +10. It may or may not be a flaw (personally I don't think it is). As an aside, why are you (whoever did this) allowing NPC classes? Also unless you have "commoner" or "any" for your favored class you're looking at an XP penalty. That is obviously a flaw in the RAW and not what they intended when introducing the houserule... And since it is absolutly a houserule, I have no problem taking the idea and implementing it how it should be. And yes I do have a problem with Gestalt characters being too powerful. Everything has a context and I certainly believe that Gestalt should be balanced within its context. Nothing should be too powerful for what it is, if something is too powerful the DM needs to take measures to balance it for the context. So you think the developers intended for you to only - ever - have two classes with gestalt? "You choose Fighter/Wizard at first level and by gum you'll stay until your Fighter 20/Wizard 20!" That's just silly. They fully intended for players to have access to the multiclass rules when using the optional gestalt rules. In fact they specificly talk about taking PrC's which are just a subset of the multiclass rules. Yet they chose not to put in rules about how to handle multiclassing - which means they intended for you to use the rules as presented in the PHB & DMG. To not allow a player access to the best aspect of their new class is to cheat that player. For example, lets say I start with: Fighter 1/Wizard 1 : +1 BAB; +2/+0/+2 BSB The next level I, as a player make the choice to go with Monk instead of going fighter 2 Monk 1/Wizard 2 : +1 BAB; +2/+2/+2 BSB would be the "best aspects" of both classes. What you're saying is that the player should get screwed and get a +0 BAB? and I have no idea how you would handle the saves - do they get the "progression" from the monk (+1/+1/+1)? Once again this would be cheating the player - and breaking the multiclass RaW. Also, how will you handle the +2 BSB when that player adds a PrC, will they get cheated out of that too? Yes I know many people will respond to this without actually reading it, so I will say it again, to avoid having to say it again in a future post. Gestalt in and of it self is not too powerful, but when there is the potential for abuse that has been illustrated, I think the DM just needs to take some corrective measures to make all the gestalt characters have similar power levels, or else there is no reason not to play a wizard 20/Fighter 1-Cleric 19.... this character will have +20 BAB at 20th level cast as a 20th level wizard and as a 19th level clereic. Actually every character in the group should play this character, because it will clearly be the most powerful build anyone can come up with. 2 Full caster Progression, 2 good saves and full BAB what isnt to love. With the proper use of PrC's you can easily get a gestalt character with full arcane caster, near full cleric, 2 good saves (with the 3rd somewhere above poor, but lower than good) and near full BAB (+17 roughly) that will smoke your wizard/fighter/cleric in just about any battle. That's without using broken stuff like MT or Cheater of Mystra. It's all about proper optimization of choices. Saethar :b: |
| gbnogkfs09-11-04, 10:59 AM | It may or may not be a flaw (personally I don't think it is). As an aside, why are you (whoever did this) allowing NPC classes? Also unless you have "commoner" or "any" for your favored class you're looking at an XP penalty. well, I used commoner on purpose; I wanted to take a class that added nothing to the gestalt, as it is worse than every other one, to make the contrast stronger. "any" won't save you from XP penalty. you can use a level of psion (to keep with low BAB classes) and choose elan as a race. |
| Vanigo09-11-04, 04:08 PM | There are, as far as I can tell, only two coherent interpretations of the gestalt rules as applied to massively multiclass characters. 1) The wizard's BAB is interpreted as follows: He gets +1 BAB at 2nd level, 4th level, 6th level, 8th level, 10th level, 12th level, 14th level, 16th level, 18th level, and 20th level. The same goes for the commoner and sorcerer. A Wiz20/Com1/Sor19 would get BAB as follows: 1st: Wiz/Com. Neither class gives a point of BAB. 2nd: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to wiz2 and gains a point of BAB. 3rd: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to sor2 and gains a point of BAB. 4th: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to wiz4 and gains a point of BAB. And so on, giving a total of +19 BAB at 20th level. Advantages: Fairly simple, doesn't require any additional rules. Disadvantages: Fully endorsed by the Lollipop Guild, gives crazy illogical results. 2) Combine the gestalt rules with the fractional BAB/Save rules. A wizard gets +.5 BAB at every level, and you round down when you need an integer value (i.e. all the time except when you're leveling up). A Wiz20/Soc1/Sor19 would get BAB as follows: 1st: Wiz/Com. BAB +.5; rounds down to 0. 2nd: Wiz/Sor. BAB +1. 3rd: Wiz/Sor. BAB +1.5; rounds down to +1. 4th: Wiz/Sor. BAB +2. And so on, giving a total of +10 BAB at 20th level. Advantages: Simple, avoids absurdities. Disadvantages: Involves the use of an additional optional rule. The "condense levels into levels of good, medium, and bad BAB progression" method advocated by some is, in practice, nearly identical to the fractional BAB rules. |
| gbnogkfs09-11-04, 04:48 PM | There are, as far as I can tell, only two coherent interpretations of the gestalt rules as applied to massively multiclass characters. 1) The wizard's BAB is interpreted as follows: He gets +1 BAB at 2nd level, 4th level, 6th level, 8th level, 10th level, 12th level, 14th level, 16th level, 18th level, and 20th level. The same goes for the commoner and sorcerer. A Wiz20/Com1/Sor19 would get BAB as follows: 1st: Wiz/Com. Neither class gives a point of BAB. 2nd: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to wiz2 and gains a point of BAB. 3rd: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to sor2 and gains a point of BAB. 4th: Wiz/Sor. The character advances to wiz4 and gains a point of BAB. And so on, giving a total of +19 BAB at 20th level. Advantages: Fairly simple, doesn't require any additional rules. Disadvantages: Fully endorsed by the Lollipop Guild, gives crazy illogical results. 2) Combine the gestalt rules with the fractional BAB/Save rules. A wizard gets +.5 BAB at every level, and you round down when you need an integer value (i.e. all the time except when you're leveling up). A Wiz20/Soc1/Sor19 would get BAB as follows: 1st: Wiz/Com. BAB +.5; rounds down to 0. 2nd: Wiz/Sor. BAB +1. 3rd: Wiz/Sor. BAB +1.5; rounds down to +1. 4th: Wiz/Sor. BAB +2. And so on, giving a total of +10 BAB at 20th level. Advantages: Simple, avoids absurdities. Disadvantages: Involves the use of an additional optional rule. that's pretty exactly what I said in the first post :D |
| Kiri Sittori09-12-04, 04:18 AM | So you think the developers intended for you to only - ever - have two classes with gestalt? "You choose Fighter/Wizard at first level and by gum you'll stay until your Fighter 20/Wizard 20!" That's just silly. They fully intended for players to have access to the multiclass rules when using the optional gestalt rules. In fact they specificly talk about taking PrC's which are just a subset of the multiclass rules. Yet they chose not to put in rules about how to handle multiclassing - which means they intended for you to use the rules as presented in the PHB & DMG. To not allow a player access to the best aspect of their new class is to cheat that player. For example, lets say I start with: Fighter 1/Wizard 1 : +1 BAB; +2/+0/+2 BSB The next level I, as a player make the choice to go with Monk instead of going fighter 2 Monk 1/Wizard 2 : +1 BAB; +2/+2/+2 BSB would be the "best aspects" of both classes. What you're saying is that the player should get screwed and get a +0 BAB? Yes. I'll say that. Because, once again: L1. Monk1/Wiz1. +0 BAB, +2 all saves. L2. Ftr1/Wiz2. +1 BAB, and saves 4/2/3. Note that simply by switching yer two character levels, I've produced a character with not only -1 BAB (compared to what you think "should" be true,) but -1 Will Save as well. Note that we both have the same thing. Monk1/Ftr1/Wiz2. Logically, they should be perfectly equal... |
| saethar09-12-04, 02:50 PM | Yes. I'll say that. Because, once again: L1. Monk1/Wiz1. +0 BAB, +2 all saves. L2. Ftr1/Wiz2. +1 BAB, and saves 4/2/3. Note that simply by switching yer two character levels, I've produced a character with not only -1 BAB (compared to what you think "should" be true,) but -1 Will Save as well. Note that we both have the same thing. Monk1/Ftr1/Wiz2. Logically, they should be perfectly equal... Except they aren't and shouldn't be perfectly equal. The order you take your classes in has always mattered, gestalt rules just shine a bright light on this fact. If you have a reason to take monk at level 1 instead of fighter then you live with the hit to BAB, that's part of planning an effective character. Maybe you want to start with a lawful character and move to a chaotic one later (I've actually done this with a monk/paladin of freedom) so you start with monk and take the hit. Ultimately if you take away the gestalt, you have a CL 4 character who has (slightly) better than my BSB and my BAB. (+2; +4/+2/+5) Now these are much better than yours - how is that fair to the character? Also, when rules can either help or harm the character, and there is no "written in stone" answer (which I think there is, but you disagree) shouldn't you error on the side of helping the player? IMO fractional BAB and BSB are even more cheese. It's just a way to pull out that extra +1 or +2 in a non-combat character (ie cleric/wiz or bard/sorc) that you normally wouldn't get. I realize that this is more of an issue with non-gestalt characters, but it does apply to gestalt ones as well. Bottom line is if you aren't giving the player the best of both classes then there is no compeling reason to use the gestalt rules. You are making the game more complicated without giving a good enough reason to. I will point out that I haven't seen a single gestalt character in a game yet that didn't combine a caster with a melee character so this hasn't been an issue (once again yet). I may very well change my mind the first time a player wants to do a wiz1/fighter1/sorc19 (which I don't disagree in it's cheese). My arguement would be the combining of caster classes with primarily melee classes (monk, fighter, paladin, whatever) where they get screwed out of several +BAB if you don't use the multiclass RaW. Add to that the whole issue with saves, which I still think you should get the best at each level - otherwise a character gets screwed with just taking a PrC (PrC rules apply the same as CoreC rules for multiclassing, except XP penalties) let alone taking multiple core classes. Which also brings up my point again of XP penalties - they apply even more so with gestalt. The character mentioned earlier - the monk/paladin of freedom was ultimately going for bladesinger and ended up, I think, a -40% XP penalty. That hurt. ALOT. Now if I had totally optimized the character I probably could have gotten a much more powerful character, and wouldn't have had an XP penalty, but I build him around a theme (and made a few bad choices *shrug*) and ultimately he was still tons of fun to play. As with all things, the DM is the ultimate judge of how things work in his/her campaign, but this thread was about the official rules. It would have been nice if the designers had included one full progression gestalt character in the book. Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-12-04, 11:36 PM | Except they aren't and shouldn't be perfectly equal. The order you take your classes in has always mattered, gestalt rules just shine a bright light on this fact. If you have a reason to take monk at level 1 instead of fighter then you live with the hit to BAB, that's part of planning an effective character. Maybe you want to start with a lawful character and move to a chaotic one later (I've actually done this with a monk/paladin of freedom) so you start with monk and take the hit. Ultimately if you take away the gestalt, you have a CL 4 character who has (slightly) better than my BSB and my BAB. (+2; +4/+2/+5) Now these are much better than yours - how is that fair to the character? To tackle both questions: 1. There's no good reason why two gestalt characters with the same class levels should have different BAB/BSB, if two core characters with the same class levels have the same BAB/BSB. That is, a core Monk1/Ftr1/Wiz2 does indeed have 2/4/2/5, no matter how you take those levels. (Now, by RAW, the taking of monk before the others closes the monk class, but that's not an issue of core mechanics.) Moreover, it's not "planning an effective character," it's an illogical loophole in a vague rule. 2. Oh noes... the FOURTH LEVEL CORE CHARACTER is slightly better than a SECOND LEVEL GESTALT. The SKY is falling!!! Seriously, though, it's perfectly fair that a L4 core character is slightly better than a L2 gestalt... especially since that L4 core character has one more feat, one stat-juicer, and a handful of extra skill ranks... not to mention 6000exp vs. 1000. Also, when rules can either help or harm the character, and there is no "written in stone" answer (which I think there is, but you disagree) shouldn't you error on the side of helping the player? I know there's no RAW here. But I choose to err on the side of common sense, and an extrapolation from how multiclass rules affect the core system. And that precludes having two characters with identical classes having different BAB/BSB. (Skills are another matter entirely, as the core mechanic is abundantly clear on what to do with skills.) And I do know DM's who house-rule most "either way" rulings to harm the players (such as house-ruling the rounding rules, so that any rounding effect that helps the party always rounds down, and any that hurts a PC rounds up.) |
| Kiri Sittori09-13-04, 09:56 AM | There are two other problems with (L1: Ftr1/Wiz1, L2: Clr1/Wiz2 having a +2 BAB.) 1. As was pointed out, using that method with a Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 "has" a +17 BAB. This means that a *one level dip in [BAB 1/1 class] gives a +2 BAB.* (Compare: A pure Wiz20/Clr20 has a +15 BAB; and a core Ftr1/Clr19 also has a +15 BAB.) Compare also to the OP's all-poor, "+19" character: a pure Wiz20/Psi20 has +10... honestly, should a one-level dip in *commoner* give an extra +9?? (Especially when a Com1/Psi19 would only have +9...) If no to the one, it must be no to the other. 2. This ruling also entails *retroactive application of discarded BAB modifiers.* The result of this is that the gestalt would get *extra character levels* for BAB/save purposes. Example: L1 Ftr1/Wiz1. You pick either the +0 (+1/2) from Wizard, or the +1 from Fighter. Naturally, you pick the Fighter... which means that, for BAB purposes, you are the same as a Ftr1. L2 Wiz2/Clr1. Now, what yer trying to do is to go back to L1 to grab the +1/2 from Wiz1, and plug it into the Wizard level here (for a net result of +1.) That is, that you want this *second level character* to have the BAB of a Ftr1/Wiz2, which is a *third level character.* Now, if this is true, I can do this: L1: Ftr1/Rgr1 L2: Ftr2/Bbn1 L3: Rgr2/Bbn2 L4: Bbn3/Rog1 L5: Rgr3/Ftr3 L6: Rgr4/Rog2 Watch this: L1: Apply Ftr1. BAB +1. L2: Apply Ftr2. BAB +2. L3: Apply Bbn2 (and, retroactively, Bbn1.) BAB +4. L4: Apply Bbn3. BAB +5. L5: Apply Ftr3. BAB +6. L6: Apply Rgr4 (and, retroactively, the other three Ranger levels.) BAB +10. And this is EXACTLY what yer doing with the Wizard levels. L1: Ftr1/Wiz1 L2: Clr1/Wiz2 L3: Clr2/Rog1 L1: Apply Ftr1. BAB +1 (and Wiz1's +1/2 deferred.) L2: Apply Wiz2 (with retroactive Wiz1.) BAB +2 (and Clr1's +3/4 deferred.) L3: Apply Clr2 (with retroactive Clr1.) BAB +3 (and Rog1's +3/4 deferred.) Hopefully, you see the problem now. |
| starfire31109-13-04, 10:54 AM | 1. As was pointed out, using that method with a Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 "has" a +17 BAB. This means that a *one level dip in [BAB 1/1 class] gives a +2 BAB.* (Compare: A pure Wiz20/Clr20 has a +15 BAB; and a core Ftr1/Clr19 also has a +15 BAB.) Just want to show something Wiz 1/Fighter 1 BAB +1(From Ftr) Wiz 2/Clr 1 BAB +2(From Wiz) Wiz 3/Clr 2 BAB +3(From Clr) Wiz 4/Clr 3 BAB +4(From Clr) Wiz 5/Clr 4 BAB +5(From Clr) Wiz 6/Clr 5 BAB +6(From Wiz) Wiz 7/Clr 6 BAB +7(From Clr) Wiz 8/Clr 7 BAB +8(From Clr) Wiz 9/Clr 8 BAB +9(From Clr) Wiz 10/Clr 9 BAB +10(From Wiz) Wiz 11/Clr 10 BAB +11(From Clr) Wiz 12/Clr 11 BAB +12(From Clr) Wiz 13/Clr 12 BAB +13(From Clr) Wiz 14/Clr 13 BAB +14(From Wiz) Wiz 15/Clr 14 BAB +15(From Clr) Wiz 16/Clr 15 BAB +16(From Clr) Wiz 17/Clr 16 BAB +17(From Clr) Wiz 18/Clr 17 BAB +18(From Wiz) Wiz 19/Clr 18 BAB +19(From Clr) Wiz 20/Clr 19 BAB +20(From Clr) This character at 20th level is Wiz 20/Ftr 1-Clr 19 and has a BAB +20 not +17 |
| Kiri Sittori09-13-04, 11:37 AM | This character at 20th level is Wiz 20/Ftr 1-Clr 19 and has a BAB +20 not +17 I stand corrected... and further vindicated (as now, that *one level dip* in fighter has been shown to grant a +5 BAB...!!!) |
| gbnogkfs09-13-04, 02:06 PM | L1 Ftr1/Wiz1. You pick either the +0 (+1/2) from Wizard, or the +1 from Fighter. Naturally, you pick the Fighter... which means that, for BAB purposes, you are the same as a Ftr1. L2 Wiz2/Clr1. Now, what yer trying to do is to go back to L1 to grab the +1/2 from Wiz1, and plug it into the Wizard level here (for a net result of +1.) That is, that you want this *second level character* to have the BAB of a Ftr1/Wiz2, which is a *third level character.* yes: that's the result of NOT using fractional BABs and saves |
| saethar09-13-04, 08:04 PM | There are two other problems with (L1: Ftr1/Wiz1, L2: Clr1/Wiz2 having a +2 BAB.) 1. As was pointed out, using that method with a Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 "has" a +17 BAB. This means that a *one level dip in [BAB 1/1 class] gives a +2 BAB.* (Compare: A pure Wiz20/Clr20 has a +15 BAB; and a core Ftr1/Clr19 also has a +15 BAB.) Compare also to the OP's all-poor, "+19" character: a pure Wiz20/Psi20 has +10... honestly, should a one-level dip in *commoner* give an extra +9?? (Especially when a Com1/Psi19 would only have +9...) If no to the one, it must be no to the other. 2. This ruling also entails *retroactive application of discarded BAB modifiers.* The result of this is that the gestalt would get *extra character levels* for BAB/save purposes. Example: L1 Ftr1/Wiz1. You pick either the +0 (+1/2) from Wizard, or the +1 from Fighter. Naturally, you pick the Fighter... which means that, for BAB purposes, you are the same as a Ftr1. L2 Wiz2/Clr1. Now, what yer trying to do is to go back to L1 to grab the +1/2 from Wiz1, and plug it into the Wizard level here (for a net result of +1.) That is, that you want this *second level character* to have the BAB of a Ftr1/Wiz2, which is a *third level character.* Now, if this is true, I can do this: L1: Ftr1/Rgr1 L2: Ftr2/Bbn1 L3: Rgr2/Bbn2 L4: Bbn3/Rog1 L5: Rgr3/Ftr3 L6: Rgr4/Rog2 Watch this: L1: Apply Ftr1. BAB +1. L2: Apply Ftr2. BAB +2. L3: Apply Bbn2 (and, retroactively, Bbn1.) BAB +4. L4: Apply Bbn3. BAB +5. L5: Apply Ftr3. BAB +6. L6: Apply Rgr4 (and, retroactively, the other three Ranger levels.) BAB +10. And this is EXACTLY what yer doing with the Wizard levels. L1: Ftr1/Wiz1 L2: Clr1/Wiz2 L3: Clr2/Rog1 L1: Apply Ftr1. BAB +1 (and Wiz1's +1/2 deferred.) L2: Apply Wiz2 (with retroactive Wiz1.) BAB +2 (and Clr1's +3/4 deferred.) L3: Apply Clr2 (with retroactive Clr1.) BAB +3 (and Rog1's +3/4 deferred.) Hopefully, you see the problem now. Ok, this is so wrong that it's taken me a minute or two to come to grips with it. First off, you want to use frac BAB, not me. My Example would be: L1: F1/W1 (+1 for fighter or +0 for wizard; NOT +1/2) L2: W2/C1 (+1 for wizard or +0 for cleric; NOT +1/2 for either) As to your Barbarian with +4 BAB, I have no idea where you are getting that - that's just silly. You don't get stuff retroactively - this is why frac BAB & BSB is so very bad. It gives you the impression that you are getting +1/2 each level, when in reality you are getting +1 every two levels opposite of a +0 every two levels (for 1/2 BAB progression). 3/4 progression is messier, but still follows a pattern (+0, +1, +1, +1; repeat). As I've stated before frac BAB & BSB is complete cheese to pull out an extra +2 or so of bonus where you normally wouldn't get it when multiclassing with 1/2 and 3/4 progression classes. Also, you still haven't answered my question on how you plan on reconciling prestige class BAB & BSB with this version of rules, and if you plan on treating PrC's different from core classes what the justification for that decision is? For the record, I'm not commenting on the wiz20/com1/psi19 - getting a +19 BAB of this is perfectly alright by the gestalt rules. The fact that it's pure muchkin-cheese not with-standing. It's up to the DM to patrol this type of rules abuse whether the rules are optional or not. For example, plenty of DM's nurfed haste and similar things long before 3.5 came out. Saethar :b: |
| Vanigo09-13-04, 09:32 PM | As I've stated before frac BAB & BSB is complete cheese to pull out an extra +2 or so of bonus where you normally wouldn't get it when multiclassing with 1/2 and 3/4 progression classes. Sure, it's a slightly cheesy way to get an extra point or two in normal, non-gestalt bulids, but have you noticed that it typically gives lower results in gestalt builds? When was the last time anyone said: "This rule is so cheesy, it makes my builds 25% less powerful!" Kiri, you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting the other way to handle things. You do not get +1/2, +1/2, +1/2... BAB for wizard levels in a non-fractional system. That's the whole point. You get +0, +1, +0, +1... BAB. When you put them together out of sync, you get something like Wiz1/Ftr1: BAB increases by the greater of +0(wiz) and +1(ftr), or +1. The +0 from wiz is discarded. Wiz2/Sor1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(wiz) and +0(sor), or +1. Total +2. The +0 from sor is discarded. Wiz3/Sor2: BAB increases by the greater of +0(wiz) and +1(sor), or +1. Total +3. The +0 from wiz is discarded. Wiz4/Sor3: BAB increases by the greater of +1(wiz) and +0(sor), or +1. Total +4. The +0 from sor is discarded. Notice the distinct lack of fractions. You don't go back and get the discarded fractions. There are no discarded fractions; only discarded zeroes (and sometimes ones). There are no fractions at all. Were you to do something like your example, it would work like this: Ftr1/Rgr1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(ftr) and +1(rgr), or +1. The +1 from rgr is discarded. Ftr2/Bbn1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(ftr) and +1(bbn), or +1. Total +2. The +1 from bbn is discarded. Rgr2/Bbn2: BAB increases by the greater of +1(rgr) and +1(bbn), or +1. Total +3. The +1 from bbn is discarded. Bbn3/Rog1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(bbn) and +0(rog), or +1. Total +4. The +0 from rog is discarded. (arbitrarily picking which class to use for the first three levels; since it's the same for each it doesn't matter.) Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it against the spirit of the rules? Yes. Is it completely coherent without having to give a sixth level character +10 BAB? Yes. |
| Kiri Sittori09-13-04, 10:42 PM | Ok, this is so wrong that it's taken me a minute or two to come to grips with it. First off, you want to use frac BAB, not me. My Example would be: L1: F1/W1 (+1 for fighter or +0 for wizard; NOT +1/2) L2: W2/C1 (+1 for wizard or +0 for cleric; NOT +1/2 for either) As to your Barbarian with +4 BAB, I have no idea where you are getting that - that's just silly. You don't get stuff retroactively - this is why frac BAB & BSB is so very bad. It gives you the impression that you are getting +1/2 each level, when in reality you are getting +1 every two levels opposite of a +0 every two levels (for 1/2 BAB progression). 3/4 progression is messier, but still follows a pattern (+0, +1, +1, +1; repeat). As I've stated before frac BAB & BSB is complete cheese to pull out an extra +2 or so of bonus where you normally wouldn't get it when multiclassing with 1/2 and 3/4 progression classes. Actually, what YOU are doing is complete cheese... and "allows" one level of Commoner to pull out an extra +9 of bonus where you normally wouldn't get it when multiclassing with 1/2 progression classes. And to do this, you need frac accounting AND retroactive application. L1: Ftr1/Wiz1. You get fighter OR wizard. +1 (from one level of 1/1) or +0 (from one level of 1/2.) L2: Clr1/Wiz2. You get cleric OR wizard. +0 (from one level of 3/4) or... +1, (from TWO levels of 1/2, one of which you don't even have for BAB purposes!) And, of course, the lather-rinse-repeat in which you store up untaken Wizard +1's for those rainy-day levels in which you can't get Cleric +1's. Doing it *without* frac BAB would entail the consideration of progressions only. For example: L1 Ftr1/Wiz1. Fighter BABp > Wizard BABp. +1. L2 Clr1/Wiz2. Cleric BABp > Wizard BABp. +0. Take Clr/Wiz to the point where you have Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19: Since Cleric BABp > Wizard BABp, you always discard the poor *progression* of wizard, and thus end up with the same BAB as a core Ftr1/Clr19... that is, +15. Likewise, using the progression method, the Wiz20/Com1-Psi19 would have +10. Since all classes involved have Poor attack progressions, it only makes sense that the result should be consistent with that. That is, no first level commoners that effectively grant +9 BAB. As it pertains to PrC's, those also have BAB progressions. A blackguard's is 1/1, whereas an assassin has 3/4. Watch. Sor20/Ftr1-Rog10-Asn9. What's the BAB? -Yer method: L1 +1 (Ftr) L2: +1 (Sor) L3: +1 (Rog) L4: +1 (Rog) L5: +1 (Rog) L6: +1 (Sor) L7: +1 (Rog) L8: +1 (Rog) L9: +1 (Rog) L10: +1 (Sor) L11: +1 (Rog) L12: +1 (Sor) <--- First Asn level taken here. L13: +1 (Asn) L14: +1 (Asn) L15: +1 (Asn) L16: +1 (Sor) L17: +1 (Asn) L18: +1 (Asn) L19: +1 (Asn) L20: +1 (Sor) For a +20. (Now, a Sor20/Ftr1-Rog9-Asn10 would only have a +19 since neither Sor11 nor Asn1 give a BAB +1... by yer method. There might be a workable bypass scheme that allows +20 in this build, though.) -The progression method: Since Fighter, Rogue, and Assassin are all better BAB *progression* than sorceror, this build is the same as a core Ftr1/Rog9/Asn10. This results in a +14. |
| saethar09-13-04, 11:36 PM | Actually, what YOU are doing is complete cheese... and "allows" one level of Commoner to pull out an extra +9 of bonus where you normally wouldn't get it when multiclassing with 1/2 progression classes. And to do this, you need frac accounting AND retroactive application. L1: Ftr1/Wiz1. You get fighter OR wizard. +1 (from one level of 1/1) or +0 (from one level of 1/2.) L2: Clr1/Wiz2. You get cleric OR wizard. +0 (from one level of 3/4) or... +1, (from TWO levels of 1/2, one of which you don't even have for BAB purposes!) And, of course, the lather-rinse-repeat in which you store up untaken Wizard +1's for those rainy-day levels in which you can't get Cleric +1's. Doing it *without* frac BAB would entail the consideration of progressions only. Um, no. Doing without frac BAB all you do is look at what the level actually gets. You're still thinking of wizard 2 as two +1/2 BAB, it's not. It's one +0 and one +1. You aren't "storing" anything up, or getting "retroactively." You get a +1 because ALL level 2 wizards get a +1 to their BAB. The only time the wizards +1 to BAB doesn't matter is when they also get a +1 from their other class, in which case you take the better (+1) Only by using frac BAB do you get a problem where you are "saving stuff up." Using frac you can actually get +1.5 (3/4 + 3/4 progression) or +1.25 (1/2 + 3/4 progressions) on a single level. Using what is actually listed in the "BAB" column of the class listing you will only ever get +1 or +0. For example: L1 Ftr1/Wiz1. Fighter BABp > Wizard BABp. +1. L2 Clr1/Wiz2. Cleric BABp > Wizard BABp. +0. Take Clr/Wiz to the point where you have Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19: Since Cleric BABp > Wizard BABp, you always discard the poor *progression* of wizard, and thus end up with the same BAB as a core Ftr1/Clr19... that is, +15. Likewise, using the progression method, the Wiz20/Com1-Psi19 would have +10. Since all classes involved have Poor attack progressions, it only makes sense that the result should be consistent with that. That is, no first level commoners that effectively grant +9 BAB. As it pertains to PrC's, those also have BAB progressions. A blackguard's is 1/1, whereas an assassin has 3/4. Watch. Sor20/Ftr1-Rog10-Asn9. What's the BAB? -Yer method: L1 +1 (Ftr) L2: +1 (Sor) L3: +1 (Rog) L4: +1 (Rog) L5: +1 (Rog) L6: +1 (Sor) L7: +1 (Rog) L8: +1 (Rog) L9: +1 (Rog) L10: +1 (Sor) L11: +1 (Rog) L12: +1 (Sor) <--- First Asn level taken here. L13: +1 (Asn) L14: +1 (Asn) L15: +1 (Asn) L16: +1 (Sor) L17: +1 (Asn) L18: +1 (Asn) L19: +1 (Asn) L20: +1 (Sor) For a +20. (Now, a Sor20/Ftr1-Rog9-Asn10 would only have a +19 since neither Sor11 nor Asn1 give a BAB +1... by yer method. There might be a workable bypass scheme that allows +20 in this build, though.) Once again, EVERY level 12 sorcerer gets a +1 to BAB, if that happens to trump the +0 given by the class taken with it, so be it. This still doesn't answer my question about BSB with PrC. When you take that first level of asn you get +0/+2/+0 to your saves. Do you give the character the +2 to ref, or the +1 from his "progression" - and if you do give the +2 why don't you do the same when the player adds a new core class? If you don't give the +2 how do you justify once again cheating the player out of what is rightly theirs? -The progression method: Since Fighter, Rogue, and Assassin are all better BAB *progression* than sorceror, this build is the same as a core Ftr1/Rog9/Asn10. This results in a +14. Once again, the entire point of gestalt is to make more powerful characters than you would get with core rules. A sor20/ftr1/rog9/asn10 having +20 BAB is not overpowering as long as he's used in a fully gestalt campaign as suggested by the rules in UA. Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-13-04, 11:40 PM | Sure, it's a slightly cheesy way to get an extra point or two in normal, non-gestalt bulids, but have you noticed that it typically gives lower results in gestalt builds? When was the last time anyone said: "This rule is so cheesy, it makes my builds 25% less powerful!" Which is why it's an optional rule... to an optional rule. Kiri, you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting the other way to handle things. You do not get +1/2, +1/2, +1/2... BAB for wizard levels in a non-fractional system. That's the whole point. You get +0, +1, +0, +1... BAB. When you put them together out of sync, you get something like Wiz1/Ftr1: BAB increases by the greater of +0(wiz) and +1(ftr), or +1. The +0 from wiz is discarded. Wiz2/Sor1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(wiz) and +0(sor), or +1. Total +2. The +0 from sor is discarded. Wiz3/Sor2: BAB increases by the greater of +0(wiz) and +1(sor), or +1. Total +3. The +0 from wiz is discarded. Wiz4/Sor3: BAB increases by the greater of +1(wiz) and +0(sor), or +1. Total +4. The +0 from sor is discarded. Notice the distinct lack of fractions. You don't go back and get the discarded fractions. There are no discarded fractions; only discarded zeroes (and sometimes ones). There are no fractions at all. Were you to do something like your example, it would work like this: Ftr1/Rgr1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(ftr) and +1(rgr), or +1. The +1 from rgr is discarded. Ftr2/Bbn1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(ftr) and +1(bbn), or +1. Total +2. The +1 from bbn is discarded. Rgr2/Bbn2: BAB increases by the greater of +1(rgr) and +1(bbn), or +1. Total +3. The +1 from bbn is discarded. Bbn3/Rog1: BAB increases by the greater of +1(bbn) and +0(rog), or +1. Total +4. The +0 from rog is discarded. (arbitrarily picking which class to use for the first three levels; since it's the same for each it doesn't matter.) Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it against the spirit of the rules? Yes. Is it completely coherent without having to give a sixth level character +10 BAB? Yes.That's the point I've been trying to make. Except the spirit of the rules part, I think it is in the spirit of the rules. I still wish they had put a full 20 level build in UA. *sigh* Saethar :b: |
| starfire31109-14-04, 09:11 AM | " Using frac you can actually get +1.5 (3/4 + 3/4 progression) or +1.25 (1/2 + 3/4 progressions) on a single level. Using what is actually listed in the "BAB" column of the class listing you will only ever get +1 or +0. No, actually fractional BAB makes it work. when you level up in wiz and clr you get(+1/2 or 3/4) not +1.25 so in the example of the Wiz/Com-Psion using fractional BAB you would get a +10 BAB at 20th level, if you dont use fractional BAB you get a +19 BAB at 20th level. How is it cheesy to reduce your BAB by +9. Once again, the entire point of gestalt is to make more powerful characters than you would get with core rules. A sor20/ftr1/rog9/asn10 having +20 BAB is not overpowering as long as he's used in a fully gestalt campaign as suggested by the rules in UA. using this logic you might as well just say all gestalt characters should have a BAB of +20 at 20th level because I can gaurentee that any player that realizes the stupid loophole will get a +20 BAB at 20th level. even if I wanted to play a wiz 20/sor 20 = BAB +10.. i would be willing to give up that first level of wiz by changing it to fighter in order to get a +10 to my final BAB, Ftr 1-Wiz 19/sor 20 = BAB +20, wow just by delaying my wizard spell prgression one level I am getting a +10 to my BAB. If we were using fraction BAB, then BAB would be +10.5 at 20th level, wow how broken that is uber cheese. IMO fractional BAB/BSB was created to give a more accurate description of what the character is. Not so yes you might be able to get an extra BAB or 2 at 20th level if you really worked it or some extra saves if you really worked it, but overall it is very nice. I like the fact that in non-gestalt game a clr 1/ rogue 1 still gets a +1 BAB. |
| Kiri Sittori09-14-04, 10:06 AM | Dropping everything in favour of a different tactic --- one that will HOPEFULLY put a different perspective on game balance. 1. Single-pair gestalt builds. (Ftr/Pal) 20: +20 BAB. (Ftr/Clr) 20: +20. (Ftr/Sor) 20: +20. (Clr/Rog) 20: +15. (Clr/Sor) 20: +15. (Sor/Wiz) 20: +10. Now, it's reasonable to compare these to the core mechanic, in which a single-class Fighter gains +20, a Cleric +15, and a Sorcerer +10. 2. Core multiclassing (NOT gestalt. Yet.) -A Ftr/X will not have a +20 BAB unless X is a class (or combination of classes) that has a 1/1 BAB progression. For example, a Ftr/Rgr will have +20, as will a Ftr/Rgr/Pal. But a Ftr/Clr can NEVER have a +20 (it will necessarily be lower.) -A Clr/X will not have a +15 BAB unless X gives a 1/1 (then see above) OR it is combined with another 3/4 BABp class (or classes) such that all levels are a multiple of 4 (eg, 16/4, 12/8, 12/4/4, 8/8/4, 8/4/4/4, etc.) -A Sor/X, where X is a class (or classes) that grant 1/2 BABp, will have a +10 if all levels are even. If any are odd, it will reduce (and NEVER increase) BAB. (Eg, a Sor10/Wiz10 will have +10, but a Sor11/Wiz9 will have +9, and a Sor5/Wiz5/Psi10 will also get +9.) 3. Now, how IMO this pertains to gestalt multiclasses: -Logically, a gestalt build that at *every level* has a 1/1 BAB class as one of its components, should have the best (+20) BAB. That is: A Ftr20/Wiz1-Clr19 should get the +20. A Ftr10-Pal10/Wiz1-Clr19 should. A Clr20/Wiz1-Ftr19 should not (didn't take a 1/1 class for all 20 levels. Compare to a core multiclass fighter, above.) A Clr20/Ftr1-Wiz19 should not, for the same reason. -Likewise, a multi-gestalt without 1/1 progressions in it should not be able to exceed +15 (the BAB of a "single-gestalt" 3/4 build.) -A Clr20/Brd1-Rog19 should get +15. -A Clr20/Brd1-Sor19 should. -A Wiz20/Brd1-Clr19 should. -A Wiz20/Brd1-Sor19 should be lower... specifically +10. -And, finally, a multi-gestalt with only 1/2 progressions should not be able to exceed +10. -Wiz20/Sor1-Psi19 should be +10. -Wiz11-Psi9/Sor11-Loremaster9 should only be +9. BUT: -Wiz10-Psi10/Sor11-Loremaster9 SHOULD be +10. ---- Now, you might say "But gestalts are supposed to be better. Why shouldn't my Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 get +20?" Gestalts are better, in that a gestalt has more HP, better save profiles, more skills, and a boatload of class features. The intent of the above is to show where a balance must be struck between "single-gestalt characters" and "multi-gestalt characters," just as the core system balances single-class vs. multi-class characters. Specifically, the single-gestalt *should* be better in the features of its two classes... including BAB. Saves are a bit trickier --- solely because of that initial +2. If you have any thoughts about how to balance those (apart from embracing the abuse of the Six Level Loop, coming next post!) I'm open to those. |
| Kiri Sittori09-14-04, 11:11 AM | The Six Level Loop (SLL) is basically a reflection of how the good and poor save progressions overlap. L1: Initial (+2 to good saves, +0 to poor saves) And now, the loop: L2: Good saves progress. L3: Poor saves progress. L4: Good saves. L5: No saves. L6: All saves. L7: No saves (which is actually the same as initial, but without the +2 to good saves.) Repeat. Now, knowing this, you can dip one or more classes to "delay" the beginning of a gestalt combo, for the purpose of improving saves. Default: A X20/Y20 will have +12 to good saves, and a +6 to poor saves (if any,) just like a normal single-class core chara. One level delay: X20/Y1-Z19. The first eight levels of this build will adjust saves as follows: L1: X Initial, Y Initial. L2: X Good, Z Initial. Loop: L3 X Poor, Z Good L4 X Good, Z Poor L5 X None, Y Good L6 X All, Y None L7 X None, Y All L8 X Good, Y None Endloop. Example: Ftr20/Rog1-Wiz20. L1: Ftr/Rog Initial = 2-2-0 L2: Ftr Good / Wiz Initial = 3-2-2 Loop: L3 Poor / Good = 3-3-3 (+1 Ref, Will) L4 Good / Poor = 4-4-3 (+1 Fort, Ref) L5 None / Good = 4-4-4 (+1 Will) L6 All / None = 5-5-5 (+1 All) L7 None / All = 6-6-6 (+1 All) L8 Good / None = 7-6-6 (+1 Fort) Endloop. Each loop gives +4 to all saves; since it loops two more times, the end result will be 15-14-14. Not bad! Two-level delay (X20/Y2-Z18) L1 X, Y Initial L2 X, Y Good L3 X Poor, Z Initial Loop: 4 Good / Good 5 None / Poor 6 All / Good 7 None / None 8 Good / All 9 Poor / None Endloop. Once again, the Ftr20/Rog2-Wiz18 build. L1 Ftr, Rog initial : 2-2-0 L2 Ftr, Rog good : 3-3-0 L3 Ftr poor, Wiz initial: 3-4-2 (the +1 Ref is from Fighter's poor.) Loop: L4 Good / Good - 4-4-3 (+1 Fort, Will) L5 None / Poor - 5-5-3 (+1 Fort, Ref) L6 All / Good - 6-6-4 (all!) L7 None / None - 6-6-4 (none!) L8 Good / All - 7-7-5 (all!) L9 Poor / None - 7-8-6 (+1 Ref, Will) Endloop. Surprisingly, this results in better Ref saves, EVEN THOUGH I'm advancing fighter-wizard. It doesn't quite loop two more times, but will result in Fort 17, Ref 17, Will 15. (Now, with two levels of BARD instead of rogue, Will ends up at 18. Try it.) The three-level delay (X20/Y3-Z17) works the same, and is even sicker. L1: X, Y Init L2: X, Y Good L3: X, Y Poor L4: X Good / Z Init Loop: L5: X None / Z Good L6: All / Poor L7: None / Good L8: Good / None L9: Poor / All L10: Good / None Endloop. Let's try a Bard20/Ftr3-Rgr17 (a Harper wannabe :P ) now. L1: Bard init, Ftr init: 2-2-2 L2: Both good: 3-3-3 L3: Both poor: 4-4-4 (Fighter and bard complement one another this way.) L4: Bard good, Ranger init: 6-6-5 Loop: L5: None/good: 7-7-5 (+1 Fort, Ref) L6: All/poor: 8-8-6 (+1 all) L7: None/good: 9-9-6 (+1 Fort, Ref) L8: Good/none: 9-10-7 (+1 Ref, Will) L9: Poor/all: 10-11-8 (+1 all) L10: Good/none: 10-12-9 (+1 Ref, Will) Endloop. End result here: Fort 17, Ref 22, Will 14. (By the way, Brd20/Ftr3-Clr17 has 17-14-22, and Rgr20/Sor3-Monk17 has 22-22-17. Try it out.) If any of this is confusing, I'll try to explain it better :) And amazingly, this is NOT unbalanced vs. core equivalents, as saving throws were designed to operate this way. |
| starfire31109-14-04, 12:44 PM | A Clr20/Wiz1-Ftr19 should not (didn't take a 1/1 class for all 20 levels. Compare to a core multiclass fighter, above.) A Clr20/Ftr1-Wiz19 should not, for the same reason. I love this actually because a Clr20/ Wiz 1-Ftr 19 has a BAB of +19 which is worse than a Clr 20/Ftr1-Wiz 19 haas a BAB +20 Why in the world would swapping 19 levels of fighter for 19 levels of wizard improve your BAB. Saves are a bit trickier --- solely because of that initial +2. If you have any thoughts about how to balance those (apart from embracing the abuse of the Six Level Loop, coming next post!) I'm open to those. Here is what we do IMC. We use fractional BSB and you only get the +2 for good saves one time for base classes and one time for PRCs all other times you just get the normal +1/2 for the level. |
| saethar09-14-04, 08:11 PM | I love this actually because a Clr20/ Wiz 1-Ftr 19 has a BAB of +19 which is worse than a Clr 20/Ftr1-Wiz 19 haas a BAB +20 Why in the world would swapping 19 levels of fighter for 19 levels of wizard improve your BAB. Actually if you go: 1 Clr1/Ftr1 2 Clr2/Wiz1 3 Clr3/Ftr 2 etc... You get +20 BAB On to other things... I still maintain that each class gets certain things at each level. For example a Wizard who advances to 2nd level (of wizard - regardless of character level, or other classes s/he has) gets a +1 BAB, and +0/+0/+1 BSB. EVERY second level wizard gets these - why would a gestalt wizard not get them? The only answer is if the paired class the character is taking gives something better, whether that paired class is a core 20 level or PrC doesn't matter since the mechanics are the same for both. This becomes even more clear when you take the 1st level in a class and get that +2 boost to one or more of your saves. The only way to handle this is to give the player the +2 for each class they take 1st level in, or to give it to them for a certain - predetirmined - number of classes, preferably the same number of core and prc. The first way is official rules, the second way is house rules. *shrug* Saethar :b: |
| MushroomSpore09-14-04, 08:54 PM | Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been under the impression that you used the *best BAB chart* of your gestalt classes, not any of this "oh, this class gets a +1 now, and that class doesn't but gets a +1 two levels from now, so I'll smush them together and get full fighter attack bonuses using only poor-BAB classes!" In other words, as I see it, a level 20 cleric/wizard has the BAB of a level 20 cleric, because it is *better* than a level 20 wizard's BAB. A fighter 10-wizard 10/cleric 20 would use fighter BAB for ten levels (being a better progression that the cleric), and cleric BAB for ten levels (being better than the wizard), for a total of, what, +17? |
| saethar09-14-04, 09:52 PM | Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been under the impression that you used the *best BAB chart* of your gestalt classes, not any of this "oh, this class gets a +1 now, and that class doesn't but gets a +1 two levels from now, so I'll smush them together and get full fighter attack bonuses using only poor-BAB classes!" As stated early in the tread the rules are: Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few cavets apply, however. Two features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day seperately. PrC rules. Emphasis mine. In other words, as I see it, a level 20 cleric/wizard has the BAB of a level 20 cleric, because it is *better* than a level 20 wizard's BAB. A fighter 10-wizard 10/cleric 20 would use fighter BAB for ten levels (being a better progression that the cleric), and cleric BAB for ten levels (being better than the wizard), for a total of, what, +17? With a straight 20/20 build it is easy to say "take the progression" since even with 3/4 vs 1/2 (the only comparison which matters for this issue since full v anything gets full, all others are dup compare (1/2 v 1/2, 3/4 v 3/4)) the 3/4 always has a better increase. The only levels which a 3/4 doesn't get a +1 are 5, 9, 13, 17 - all odd levels & all levels where 1/2 BAB gets a +0. So you see the 20/20 gestalt is not at issue here - it is VERY clear cut no matter which rules set you are using. The only time the rules questions comes into the picture are when you have uneven class levels. In that case it depends on which rules set you are using. If you are using the "official" verson as explained in my previous post then it will matter what order you take the classes in. You could end up with I think 3 different values for BAB depending on the order of the classes. If you are using the frac rules I couldn't say if it would matter without doing a full build out. For example: your ftr 10/wiz 10/clr 20 will have different bab just based on if you alternate your ftr/wiz levels, or if you take them in 'chunks'. you could end up with a +15 by not having a ftr level or an even wiz level on the previously mentioned cleric 5, 9, 13, & 17; or you could have a +20 by making sure you have either a ftr or even wiz level on those 4 levels & if you just take levels randomly you'll end up with something in between. Because of the clr 20 you'll never have below +15. Also once again the gestalt rules, like all official rules (optional or not, still official) are balanced based on XP penalties. The Wiz 20/Com 1/Psion 19 in the original post would have XP penalties for any race except human and half-elf. If you change Com 1 to Ftr 1 then it's every race except human, half-elf & dwarf. The same is true for most other class combo's like this. The Ftr 10/Wiz 10/Clr 20 posted here would have to be human or half-elf since no core races have cleric for favored class. Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-14-04, 11:27 PM | As stated early in the tread the rules are: Emphasis mine. With a straight 20/20 build it is easy to say "take the progression" since even with 3/4 vs 1/2 (the only comparison which matters for this issue since full v anything gets full, all others are dup compare (1/2 v 1/2, 3/4 v 3/4)) the 3/4 always has a better increase. The only levels which a 3/4 doesn't get a +1 are 5, 9, 13, 17 - all odd levels & all levels where 1/2 BAB gets a +0. So you see the 20/20 gestalt is not at issue here - it is VERY clear cut no matter which rules set you are using. The only time the rules questions comes into the picture are when you have uneven class levels. In that case it depends on which rules set you are using. If you are using the "official" verson as explained in my previous post then it will matter what order you take the classes in. You could end up with I think 3 different values for BAB depending on the order of the classes. If you are using the frac rules I couldn't say if it would matter without doing a full build out. For example: your ftr 10/wiz 10/clr 20 will have different bab just based on if you alternate your ftr/wiz levels, or if you take them in 'chunks'. you could end up with a +15 by not having a ftr level or an even wiz level on the previously mentioned cleric 5, 9, 13, & 17; or you could have a +20 by making sure you have either a ftr or even wiz level on those 4 levels & if you just take levels randomly you'll end up with something in between. Because of the clr 20 you'll never have below +15. Also once again the gestalt rules, like all official rules (optional or not, still official) are balanced based on XP penalties. The Wiz 20/Com 1/Psion 19 in the original post would have XP penalties for any race except human and half-elf. If you change Com 1 to Ftr 1 then it's every race except human, half-elf & dwarf. The same is true for most other class combo's like this. The Ftr 10/Wiz 10/Clr 20 posted here would have to be human or half-elf since no core races have cleric for favored class. Saethar :b: The 20/20's were presented as a sort of upper limit... since taking both classes for all 20 levels is the gestalt equivalent of "single classing." For example, the all-poor multi should never be capable of a +10, since the "single-gestalt" of two poors is +10. Now, let's try to work out some sort of solution here, keeping this in mind. 1. The rules as written, even though they partially "account for" multi-gestalt builds and PrC's, primarily assume that the characters will take on a pure, "single-gestalt" build. That is, it assumes a paladin/sorceror will remain so long enough to abuse its massive Charisma advantages, or that a fighter/ranger will go at least to L11 to pick up all the feats of Archery Combat Style. 2. Defining a Gestalt "Class Level." This might be the most serious failing of the RAW: failing to properly define the concept of "class level." I'd like to attempt it now. -Hit Dice: Always apply the better HD: a fighter/wizard gains a d10. -BAB: Always count the better *progression rate* between the two classes. For multi-class builds, only consider the number of times any given class "counts" for BAB purposes. -BSB: See below. -Class Features: ---If the two classes have separate features (such as a fighter/wizard) then all are applied. ---If the two classes have identical features (such as a wizard/sorceror for *familiar purposes only*) then apply at the better rate. ---If a PrC supplies a benefit that stacks with another (such as a fighter/rogue that takes Blackguard, with Sneak Attack) it still stacks. (Yes, this does mean that a Rog20/Ftr10-BG10 will bust out 13 dice of sneak damage.) A sample, and popular, build: Clr20 / Ftr1-Wiz19. L1: Clr/Ftr. Ftr1 is applied = +1 BAB. L2: Clr/Wiz. Cleric is applied for the first time, so you fight as a Ftr1/Clr1 (+1 BAB) L3: Clr/Wiz. You would apply Clr2, and claim a +1. ... End result: This build fights as a Ftr1/Clr19 (+15 BAB.) And "sequencing" of the Fighter level would never come into play... ALL gestalts that feature 20 cleric levels, one fighter level, and 19 wizard levels would end up +15. Now for gestalt saves... applying a similar theory separately for each "good" save: Fort: Since Cleric has good, we can count 20 levels of Cleric: +12. Ref: No class in this build ever had good saves: +6. Will: Cleric and wizard have good, and wizard "counted" at L2 due to its initial: hence, as a Clr19/Wiz1, we get +13. Now, demonstrating for a Rog20/Ftr1-Wiz19. BAB: +15 (see above.) Fort: Only fighter supplied a good save. Treat as a Ftr1/Rog19: +8. Ref: 20 levels of Rogue give a +12. Will: 19 levels of Wizard give good saves. Treat as Wiz19/Rog1: +11. Now, sequencing does affect saves: consider L1 Cleric/fighter: 2/0/2 L2 Cleric/rogue: 3/2/3 L1 Cleric/rogue: 2/2/2 L2 Cleric/fighter: 4/2/3. The easy solution is to deny the initial +2 *if it would be taken in conjunction with another Good BSBp class.* Thoughts? (The alternative to this is described in the "Six Level Loop.") |
| saethar09-15-04, 12:14 AM | The 20/20's were presented as a sort of upper limit... since taking both classes for all 20 levels is the gestalt equivalent of "single classing." For example, the all-poor multi should never be capable of a +10, since the "single-gestalt" of two poors is +10. Now, let's try to work out some sort of solution here, keeping this in mind. 1. The rules as written, even though they partially "account for" multi-gestalt builds and PrC's, primarily assume that the characters will take on a pure, "single-gestalt" build. That is, it assumes a paladin/sorceror will remain so long enough to abuse its massive Charisma advantages, or that a fighter/ranger will go at least to L11 to pick up all the feats of Archery Combat Style. I'll get into this more fully in a bit, just wanted to comment that the rules as written specificly state to "choose two classes" - they are taking into account that you can, and will take any two classes that you qualify for. The lack of an alternate set of rules for "gestalt multi-classing" means that you use the RaW in the PHB. Saethar :b: |
| starfire31109-15-04, 09:20 AM | The biggest part of the confusion stems for them saying that you take the best aspect of each class at each level, and then they don't go on to explain in detail what they mean by aspect. IMO it means that if a you take a level in wizard and cleric you always take the clerics BAB because clerics have a better BAB than wizards even if the Cleric has a +0 at that level and the Wizard has a +1, the cleric's BAB is the better aspect of the gestalt. Just an idea. |
| MushroomSpore09-15-04, 09:40 AM | IMO it means that if a you take a level in wizard and cleric you always take the clerics BAB because clerics have a better BAB than wizards even if the Cleric has a +0 at that level and the Wizard has a +1, the cleric's BAB is the better aspect of the gestalt. Very much agreed. :) |
| Kiri Sittori09-15-04, 10:25 AM | I'll get into this more fully in a bit, just wanted to comment that the rules as written specificly state to "choose two classes" - they are taking into account that you can, and will take any two classes that you qualify for. The lack of an alternate set of rules for "gestalt multi-classing" means that you use the RaW in the PHB. Saethar :b: Which means what? L1 Ftr/Wiz L2 Clr/Wiz What we know about this build is the following: One level of Fighter Features (one feat) One level of Cleric Features (turn undeads, cast spells as Clr1) Two levels of Wizard Features (familiar as Wiz2, cast spells as Wiz2, scribe scroll) HD: 1d10+1d8 What we don't know: BAB: Is it +1 or +2? Saves: 3-0-3 or 4-0-4? Herein lies the problem. Without controversy, we can do EVERYTHING with a gestalt build, except derive the BAB and saves. PHB-RAW is helpless in this regard, as is the UA-RAW. Now, I've taken the liberty of emailing the Mages, and asking them to demonstrate a Wiz20/Ftr1-Rog19 build, especially for BAB and save purposes. Maybe we can get an actual answer from the head(s) that cooked up the gestalt system to begin with. :) |
| gbnogkfs09-15-04, 12:27 PM | As stated early in the tread the rules are: If you are using the "official" verson as explained in my previous post then it will matter what order you take the classes in. Interesting how your explanation is the "official" one... Also once again the gestalt rules, like all official rules (optional or not, still official) are balanced based on XP penalties. The Wiz 20/Com 1/Psion 19 in the original post would have XP penalties for any race except human and half-elf. If you change Com 1 to Ftr 1 then it's every race except human, half-elf & dwarf. The same is true for most other class combo's like this. also once again, maybe you didn't catch the "any" favoured class feature of humans and half-elves... their favoured class is the highest level one, not any of player's choice. to keep with low BAB classes, take a src level and choose wild elf as race. |
| saethar09-15-04, 08:55 PM | Interesting how your explanation is the "official" one... also once again, maybe you didn't catch the "any" favoured class feature of humans and half-elves... their favoured class is the highest level one, not any of player's choice. to keep with low BAB classes, take a src level and choose wild elf as race.My version is a direct quote from the rules book - I think that makes it official. If I happened to misremember the fav class for humans/.5 elves I apoligize, I didn't quote that directly just from memory so it could very well be wrong. But that just makes it harder to avoid XP penalties. Even a human or 1/2 elf can't avoid it. And wild elf is not a core race - it's an add of from FRCS - and it's Fav class is the same as core elf (wizard, not sorc). In fact the only FR elves which don't have wiz for fav class (that I can remember off the top of my head) are female drow (cleric) and star elves (bard). I even double checked the PGtF - it doesn't update any of the info from FRCS for fav class. EDIT: Just realized that sorc as fav class is in MM. My Bad. Look - I stand by the basic fact that at second level a wizard gets a +1 to their BAB. Every single wizard, upon taking their second class level, gets a +1 to their BAB. If that aspect of their class abilities is better than the BAB given by their paired class then they get the +1. The mechanics don't get more simple. Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-15-04, 09:01 PM | The biggest part of the confusion stems for them saying that you take the best aspect of each class at each level, and then they don't go on to explain in detail what they mean by aspect. IMO it means that if a you take a level in wizard and cleric you always take the clerics BAB because clerics have a better BAB than wizards even if the Cleric has a +0 at that level and the Wizard has a +1, the cleric's BAB is the better aspect of the gestalt. Just an idea.The only problem with this is that you can easily end up with a BAB of less than the progression. Wiz 20 (1/2 progression, +10 BAB) Bard 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Monk 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Cleric 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Rogue 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Final character: +11 BAB All of the 5 level classes have "medium" progression - when you take the first level in the class you get a +0 to BAB. If you have to take that because the progression is better than the wizard's "poor" you end up with a BAB of +11 - well below the 3/4 progression (+15 BAB) they should get. Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-15-04, 09:14 PM | Which means what? L1 Ftr/Wiz L2 Clr/Wiz What we know about this build is the following: One level of Fighter Features (one feat) One level of Cleric Features (turn undeads, cast spells as Clr1) Two levels of Wizard Features (familiar as Wiz2, cast spells as Wiz2, scribe scroll) HD: 1d10+1d8 What we don't know: BAB: Is it +1 or +2? Saves: 3-0-3 or 4-0-4? Herein lies the problem. Without controversy, we can do EVERYTHING with a gestalt build, except derive the BAB and saves. PHB-RAW is helpless in this regard, as is the UA-RAW. Now, I've taken the liberty of emailing the Mages, and asking them to demonstrate a Wiz20/Ftr1-Rog19 build, especially for BAB and save purposes. Maybe we can get an actual answer from the head(s) that cooked up the gestalt system to begin with. :) RaW, with no optional rules applied, say that a wizard always gets a +1 to his BAB and a +1 to his Base Will Save when he gets his 2nd class level - regardless of his character level. Controversy only exists because of the optional fractional rules supplied in UA, rules which only use standard multiclass characters as an example - not gestalt characters. Thanks for emailing the mages - hopefully they will give an example, I think that will bury this arguement once and for all. FYI: I hope I don't seem more imflamatory than usual - suffering a tooth-ache which makes me a little shorter than I usually am. Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-15-04, 09:23 PM | -Class Features: ---If the two classes have separate features (such as a fighter/wizard) then all are applied. ---If the two classes have identical features (such as a wizard/sorceror for *familiar purposes only*) then apply at the better rate. ---If a PrC supplies a benefit that stacks with another (such as a fighter/rogue that takes Blackguard, with Sneak Attack) it still stacks. (Yes, this does mean that a Rog20/Ftr10-BG10 will bust out 13 dice of sneak damage.) It's generally accepted that shared class features only stack if they are not received at the same level. By that I mean taking Rog/Black guard at the same time won't give you 2 bonus dice of SD at one level. I assume that is what you mean. Just clearifing because it's come up on the CO board when the gestalt rules first came out. :) Oh, and this once again shows how very important it is what order you take your classes in with gestalt builds. Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-15-04, 10:37 PM | The only problem with this is that you can easily end up with a BAB of less than the progression. Wiz 20 (1/2 progression, +10 BAB) Bard 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Monk 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Cleric 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Rogue 5 (3/4 progression, +15 BAB) Final character: +11 BAB All of the 5 level classes have "medium" progression - when you take the first level in the class you get a +0 to BAB. If you have to take that because the progression is better than the wizard's "poor" you end up with a BAB of +11 - well below the 3/4 progression (+15 BAB) they should get. Saethar :b: Check the math again --- like any core Bard5/Monk5/Clr5/Rog5, that gives a +12. Now, if you had taken 8 levels in one of the classes, and 4 in the other three, you'd get +15... which illustrates one of my previous points about 3/4 progressions. To be sure: 5 levels in each: Four loops of 0 1 2 3 3. Only using multiples of 4: Five loops of 0 1 2 3. (Some loops may be repeated within a single class: do a build of a core Monk8/Bard4/Clr4/Rog4 and see for yerself.) The alternative would give yer wiz20/four 3/4 classes 5 a +15 BAB... but would entail using Dante's method for BAB progressions. Save progressions will be similar. 1. Choose classes. 2. Base attack bonus: -If you chose a class with a "1/1" attack progression, you gain +1 level of Warrior (for BAB purposes.) If not, proceed: -If you chose a class with a "3/4" attack progression, you gain +1 level of Expert (for BAB purposes.) If not, proceed: -If you chose two classes with "1/2" attack progression, you gain +1 level of Mage (for BAB purposes.) 3. Base save bonuses: -If either class has a Good fort save, gain +1 level of Good fort saves; otherwise, gain +1 level of Poor fort saves. -Repeat this process for Ref and Will saves. -Any time you gain "+1 level of X class feature" for the first time you took X, its associated Good saves get a one-time +2 bonus, in lieu of what you would otherwise get at this level. 4. Skill points: -At first level, take the higher total of the skill points available, add Int modifier, and multiply by 4 (as usual.) -After first level, take the higher total, and add Int modifier (as usual.) -For any given level, yer Class Skills are any and all class skills defined for the two chosen classes. 5. Ability scores: -As usual, stat increases occur every four character levels. 6. Hit points: -Choose the better Hit Die from between the two chosen classes. 7. Feats: -At the usual character levels (1+1/3) you gain one feat. 8. Spells: -This entry in the PHB shall be folded into Class Features. 9. Class Features: -Each class gains "+1 level of ____ class features." This is cumulative with any identically named benefit. A sample progression (The Wiz20/Ftr1-Brd19.) First level: Classes: Fighter and wizard. BAB: +1 Warrior: (War1 = +1.) Saves: Good Fort (from Fighter, initial.) +2 Poor Reflex. +0 Good Will (from Wizard, initial.) +2. Skills: (2+Int)x4. Ability score: NA HD: d10 Feats: One feat (as any first level character.) Class features: +1 level of Fighter features (first time taken. A Ftr1 gains one martial feat.) +1 level of Wizard features (first time. A Wiz1 gets scribe scroll, summon familiar, and the appropriate spellcasting ability.) Second level: Classes: Bard and wizard. BAB: +1 level of Expert. (As a War1/Exp1, you have +1... this doesn't change yet.) Saves: Poor Fort: +2 (good1/poor1.) Good Reflex: +2 (poor1/good1, plus Bard's initial.) Good Will: +4 (good2, plus Bard's initial.) Skills: 6+Int. Ability score: NA HD: d6 Feats: NA Class features: +1 level of Wizard features (second time taken. Now we can cast spells as a Wiz2.) +1 level of Bard features (first time.) Third level: Classes: Wizard and bard. BAB: +1 Expert. As a war1/exp2, you have BAB +2. Saves: Poor Fort = +2 (now a good1/poor2) Good Ref = +3 (now a poor1/good2) Good Will (now a good3) = +4 (since good saves don't progress at third level.) Feats: Gain one feat +1 level of Wizard features (now we're a Wiz3 for features.) +1 level of Bard features (and now, a Bard2.) Level 20: Classes: Wizard and bard (taken throughout.) BAB: +1 expert. As a war1/exp19, you have BAB +15. Saves: Fort - as a good1/poor19. +8 Ref - as a poor1/good19 - +11 Will - as a good20, but with a +1 replaced by the bard's initial +2: +13. Total skills: (2+Int)x4 + (6+Int)x19 (for 19 wizard/bard levels.) Total ability score increases: 5 Total HD: 1d10 + 19d6 Total character-level feats: 7 Class features: One level of Fighter features 19 levels of Bard features 20 levels of Wizard features. Thoughts on the above? |
| Kiri Sittori09-15-04, 11:08 PM | RaW, with no optional rules applied, say that a wizard always gets a +1 to his BAB and a +1 to his Base Will Save when he gets his 2nd class level - regardless of his character level. Controversy only exists because of the optional fractional rules supplied in UA, rules which only use standard multiclass characters as an example - not gestalt characters. Thanks for emailing the mages - hopefully they will give an example, I think that will bury this arguement once and for all. FYI: I hope I don't seem more imflamatory than usual - suffering a tooth-ache which makes me a little shorter than I usually am. Saethar :b: Yet if this produces absurd results, it shouldn't be correct. I'll try something. 1. Let's first compare *core* Ftr1/Pal19 to *core* Ftr1/Wiz19. It should be obvious that the fighter/pally will get the +20, and the gish will get only +10. 2. Now, take each character, and gestalt its levels (with Ftr1 at the beginning of both!) to Sor20. That is, we now have a Sor20/Ftr1-Pal19, and a Sor20/Ftr1-Wiz19. 3. Is it balanced (within the gestalt rules) to say that because of the 20 sorcerer levels, the wizard should end up with the same level of martial skill (ie, BAB) as the paladin? Is it balanced that this character should end up with the same martial skill as a (Ftr/Pal)20? I probably gave a poor interpretation of what the RaW doesn't do. PHB-RaW describes, very clearly, what happens with standard multiclassing. Gestalt mechanics, however, give PHB-RaW a terrible identity crisis, in that a Wiz2/Ftr1-Rog1 isn't quite the same as a Ftr1/Rog1/Wiz2. This is a second level character, so it doesn't do at all to say it "has" the BAB of a Ftr1/Wiz2 (which is a third level character.) In short, the PHB can't describe what a first-level gish is. And UA doesn't sufficiently describe what happens if you take second level in something other than gish (even if it has a wizard component.) This was the email exchange. This concerns the gestalt character rules presented in Unearthed Arcana. How, exactly, do you figure out your base attack and save bonuses if you take classes other than those you started with? Example: At first level, I choose a gestalt fighter/wizard. Then, at second level, I take rogue/wizard, and continue to take rogue/wizard to level 20. What are the BAB and saves at level 20, and how is this arrived at? Overall we can not figure out the math for the question however here is the overview of how it would work. When you start, ftr1/wiz1, you have a bab of +1, and the saves would most likely be combined of the fighter and wizard (fighters best, with wizards best) When you gain a level in rogue/wiz you would take the best of both worlds (This may not give you a bonus to base attack, but would increase your saves based on the best of the rogues and wizards.) This seems to suggest that you would actually take progressions, and not "actual class levels." That is, that the L1 F/W, L2 Ro/W would fight as a F1/Ro1. |
| Vanigo09-15-04, 11:39 PM | This seems to suggest that you would actually take progressions, and not "actual class levels." That is, that the L1 F/W, L2 Ro/W would fight as a F1/Ro1. To me it seems to suggest that even they can't figure it out. Like all of us, they noticed the possible Wiz2=+1 BAB interpretation, and like many of us, they thought that looked awfully funky. They really should have made the fractional BAB/Saves part of gestalt rules instead of an optional sidebar. |
| gbnogkfs09-16-04, 12:39 AM | To me it seems to suggest that even they can't figure it out. Like all of us, they noticed the possible Wiz2=+1 BAB interpretation, and like many of us, they thought that looked awfully funky. They really should have made the fractional BAB/Saves part of gestalt rules instead of an optional sidebar. oh, yes. definetly. |
| starfire31109-16-04, 08:53 AM | This was the email exchange. Overall we can not figure out the math for the question however here is the overview of how it would work. When you start, ftr1/wiz1, you have a bab of +1, and the saves would most likely be combined of the fighter and wizard (fighters best, with wizards best) When you gain a level in rogue/wiz you would take the best of both worlds (This may not give you a bonus to base attack, but would increase your saves based on the best of the rogues and wizards.) LOL this is hilarious.... It seems like they know less than us. FYI I am going to stick with either one of the following interpretation A) just use fractional BAB/BSB B) use my first interpretation form my first and second post, See below NP, a quick key for my previous post that you found confusing the words in parenthesis(High) are the type of bonus that you are taking at that level. So at 1 ftr/ 1 clr you are taking the +1 BAB(High) from fighter, +2 fort(good) form Fighter, +0(poor) from fighter, +2 Will(Good) from Cleric So at 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr You decided to take your first level in an average BAB, what kind of bonus do you get for your 1st level in an average BAB, you get a +0, so you now have a +1 BAB(average), You now take the good fort save from cleric, at second level in a good fort save you have a +3 fort(Good) save, then you take poor reflex save from cleric, you have +0 Ref(poor), then you take good Will from Wizard giving you your second level in a good will save, this gives a +3 Will(good) So this character has 1 ftr-1 Wiz/2 Clr +1 BAB, +3 Fort, +0 Ref, + 3 Will At least that is how I do it. GL all |
| saethar09-16-04, 09:47 AM | Overall we can not figure out the math for the question however here is the overview of how it would work. When you start, ftr1/wiz1, you have a bab of +1, and the saves would most likely be combined of the fighter and wizard (fighters best, with wizards best) When you gain a level in rogue/wiz you would take the best of both worlds (This may not give you a bonus to base attack, but would increase your saves based on the best of the rogues and wizards.) Well, at least we're not the only ones having a problem figuring out how it should work. I find it interesting that they say you take the best save, regardless of progression, though since the rogue/wiz saves don't overlap it's not that big of a deal in this example. Does this mean though that we all accept that we take the first level +2 to saves with gestalt for each 1st class level? *shrug* for most campaigns using gestalt the frac system will likely work best - balance wise - but I'm gonna stick with my way for my campaigns which use gestalt. Oh and I love the "and the saves would most likely be" part... Did they read the rules before answering? Edited for other ideas about the BSB stuff Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-16-04, 10:05 AM | Well, at least we're not the only ones having a problem figuring out how it should work. I find it interesting that they say you take the best save, regardless of progression, though since the rogue/wiz saves don't overlap it's not that big of a deal in this example. *shrug* for most campaigns using gestalt the frac system will likely work best - balance wise - but I'm gonna stick with my way for my campaigns which use gestalt. Oh and I love the "and the saves would most likely be" part... Did they read the rules before answering? Saethar :b: More than likely not, since I *specifically* used the level one gish *because* it's the example in the book. Now, try to wrap yer brain around this: 14 levels of Sor/Wiz (or, if you prefer, Sor14/Ftr1-Wiz13) to start. Now, take Sor15/Archmage1. 1. Is it reasonable to say that the "+1 spellcasting level" provided by Archmage MUST be taken in Wizard (since it would otherwise overlap with the +1 spellcasting level provided by Sorcerer?) 2. Regardless of the above, should this character be able to pay for his High Arcana abilities with either sorc or wiz slots, at any given Archmage level? 3. For purposes of the "must know spells of five schools, of fifth level or higher," can both classes be considered? All three of these seem to have reasonable "yes" answers to them, just want thoughts on it. |
| saethar09-16-04, 10:13 PM | More than likely not, since I *specifically* used the level one gish *because* it's the example in the book. Now, try to wrap yer brain around this: 14 levels of Sor/Wiz (or, if you prefer, Sor14/Ftr1-Wiz13) to start. Now, take Sor15/Archmage1. 1. Is it reasonable to say that the "+1 spellcasting level" provided by Archmage MUST be taken in Wizard (since it would otherwise overlap with the +1 spellcasting level provided by Sorcerer?) 2. Regardless of the above, should this character be able to pay for his High Arcana abilities with either sorc or wiz slots, at any given Archmage level? 3. For purposes of the "must know spells of five schools, of fifth level or higher," can both classes be considered? All three of these seem to have reasonable "yes" answers to them, just want thoughts on it. 1) If you want the +1 spellcasting level to "count" yes it must be taken in wizard. 2) You would pay for high arcane with what ever class you just got the +1 in, or with which ever one you picked at first level (ie all high arcana get payed for by the class chosen at 1st archmage level), or you can choose at each level. Lacking exact rules it's up to the DM. 3) I would say yes here - but you all already agree that I allow high powered stuff into my game. ;) I would say that this wouldn't be any different than a non-gestalt wiz/sorc going archmage (much later than the gestalt... but non-the-less) - would you let spell knowledge from both arcane classes count to get into the PrC? Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-16-04, 11:13 PM | 1) If you want the +1 spellcasting level to "count" yes it must be taken in wizard. 2) You would pay for high arcane with what ever class you just got the +1 in, or with which ever one you picked at first level (ie all high arcana get payed for by the class chosen at 1st archmage level), or you can choose at each level. Lacking exact rules it's up to the DM. 3) I would say yes here - but you all already agree that I allow high powered stuff into my game. ;) I would say that this wouldn't be any different than a non-gestalt wiz/sorc going archmage (much later than the gestalt... but non-the-less) - would you let spell knowledge from both arcane classes count to get into the PrC? Saethar :b: Eh, for the second, I'd prefer to see "whichever you got the +1 in." That way, it would show the influence of the Acm level on that particular class's features. Ie, 14th level wiz/sor takes Wiz/Acm: Acm contributes one caster level to Sorcerer, so that high arcana must be applied using an appropriate Sorcerer slot. (Personally, I'd continue along this line, simply because the sorc slots are more plentiful. :) ) For the others, absolutely yes. Now, back to the saving throws discussion. The way I wrote my version of "gestalt level ups," yes, it considers the +2 initial bonuses. Consider a character that took monk/commoner at every level, EXCEPT 5, 9, 13, 17, and 20; at these, we took monk/ranger instead. (Note that commoner only optimises the third method listed below. Otherwise, I wouldn't even touch it. :P ) -The strict method: Since all saves are "good" at every level, it should be 12/12/12 -My preferred method: All saves are good, but the Ranger's initial happened, not coincidentally, at the monk's "advance no saves" level, thus conferring a whole +2 (rather than an extra +1.) Result is 14/14/12 -Command-line method: Commoner levels are tossed in here because they advance a save every three class levels. Try the build yerself: it should result in Fort 21, Ref 21, Will 18. (You can swap out the commoner levels for something more useful; but the saves will suffer. Subtract 3 from the final build's saves, for each GOOD save the class has.) (Likewise, swapping out the Ranger levels for something else will control which saves get 21 as opposed to 18: the good saves of the "swapped in" class get 21, and that class's poor saves 18.) Command-line method is consistent with yer BAB method (the one that allows Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 to have +20 BAB) and with the Six Level Loop. |
| starfire31109-17-04, 08:56 AM | I was looking at the rules again last night, but unfortunately I dont have them with me now. But I remember the rules saying somthing about at first level you take the best Base Attack progression of the 2 classes and the best save progression of the classes. This would lead me to belive that this is the way it should be done at each level. IE taking the best progression not neccessarily the best bonus. Just an idea, although I still think the best way to go is just stick with fractional bonuses |
| gbnogkfs09-17-04, 02:48 PM | I was looking at the rules again last night, but unfortunately I dont have them with me now. But I remember the rules saying somthing about at first level you take the best Base Attack progression of the 2 classes and the best save progression of the classes. This would lead me to belive that this is the way it should be done at each level. IE taking the best progression not neccessarily the best bonus. oh, yes, I do agree: the problem I was trying to solve is what the h... does that mean? And the result is that every one has their own view :cool: Oh, and thank you for your support on my side :D |
| saethar09-17-04, 11:07 PM | oh, yes, I do agree: the problem I was trying to solve is what the h... does that mean? And the result is that every one has their own view :cool: Oh, and thank you for your support on my side :D Well I think that the majority are on your side of this debate, but that's ok - I don't mind being alone ;) Saethar :b: |
| darkwave09-18-04, 01:59 AM | I am almost fearful to join the fray, however I have first one question: Doesn't taking 20 levels in Fighter and then 20 in Wizard result in a character with a very different BAB than one that takes 20 Levels in Wizard and then 20 in Fighter? True, that is an epic related question, but it seems along the same path. In any case, some have disliked that situation (when going up the arcane path first for the most part). So as a suggested house rule, maybe people like the "buy back system" I will try to describe below. It is nicer in spreadsheet form. Normally one uses it with epic (so it gets rarely used and may be a poor suggestion on my part). Buy back system: For a given statistic (BAB or Saves), one types in the various levels the character has attained and their statistic. If a PrC is contingent on another class, one modifies the BAB so that the PrC automatically comes after (so even if it would be convenient for a PrC class to have progression before the contingent classes, it cannot happen. The computer then compares the statistics for combinations relative to the transition to epic (pretty much a bunch of if/then statements with ">" and "<" thrown around all over the place). As such all the RESULTANT statistics are uniformly maximized by the computer for each character so they can get back to role playing instead of stat building. Used With Gestalt. With the Gestalt, it seems like this would be even MORE useful, as it seems that, while everyone is probably really good with math, and really wants to read the charts, they are having in some cases difficulty. Since the RAW even says to take the best combination (but it ALSO lays down methods for chart reading that would suggest a different method), this would seem the best way WITHOUT resorting to confusing chart reading and such. In this example, a 19th level wizard, 20th level psion and 1st level fighter would have the same BAB as a 1st level fighter and a 19th level psion, regardless of the order. This follows the intent of never allowing a gestalt to be better than the component parts, and is easy on the mind after programming into the spreadsheet (type in levels, it spits out answer) and it would be the same regardless to who was where doing what in whichever order. Another nice thing about the system is one can start to assign an EL to a gestalt character. There are lots of disagreements on HOW to go about doing this, however one method is to slow progression for advancing levels is to make the EL of the character bump a +1 every 2 earned levels. (so a 14th level wizard/14th level fighter would suddenly be an epic character - 21st). The Big example (assuming 2 classes each “level”): A NG character with 4 levels in Barbarian/Bard/Cleric/Druid/Fighter/Psion/Ranger/Rogue/Sorcerer/Wizard would be a 30th level character (abet quite a bit messed up), would have a BAB of 18 (+4 from Barbarian, +4 from Fighter, +4 from Ranger, +3 from Bard (4 levels) and +3 from Cleric or Druid or Rogue), would have a Fort of 12 (+2 for good save chart, +2 from Barbarian, +2 from Cleric, +2 from Druid, +2 from Fighter +2 from Ranger), would have a Ref save of 10 (+2 for good save chart, +2 for Bard, +2 for Ranger, +2 for Rogue, and 2 separate +1s from any of the other classes), would have a Will save of 12 (+2 for good save chart, +2 for Bard, +2 for Cleric, +2 for Druid, and +2 from Sorcerer and +2 from Wizard). This confused character would have Fast Movement, Rage 2/day, Improved Uncanny Dodge (stacks with Rogue), Trap Sense +2 (stack with Rogue), Bardic music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, inspire competence, Bardic Spells: 3 0th level, 2 1st level, 0 2nd level, plus bonus spells due to Charisma, 6 0th level, 3 1st level and 2 2nd level spells known (bardic), turn Undead (4th level), Cleric spells: 5 0th level, 3+1 1st level, 2+1 2nd level, plus bonus spells due to wisdom, Animal Companion (5th level due to ranger stacking), Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, resist Nature's Lure, Druid spells: 5 0th level, 3 1st level, 2 2nd level, plus bonus spells due to wisdom, 3 Bonus feats (fighter), 1st favored enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style, Endurance, 0 1st level Ranger spells (plus spells due to wisdom bonus), Sneak attack +2d6, Trapfind, Evasion, Summon Familiar (8th level, stacks with wizard), 6 0th, 6 1st, 3 2nd level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list plus bonus spells due to Charisma, 6 0th, 3 1st and 1 2nd level spells Known from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, Scribe scroll, 4 0th, 3 1st and 2 2nd level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. In addition the character would have All shields, All armor and all simple and martial weapons feats. All skills would be class skills and the character (lets assume non-human due to the pain, I will also use IB as Intelligence Bonus) would have (7 * (IB+8) Rogue) + (4 * (IB+6) Bard) + (4 * (IB+6) Ranger) + (4 * (IB+4) Barbarian) + (4 * (IB+4) Druid) = 136 + IB * 23 skill points. The character would have 5 ability score increases and would have 7 additional feats. To reach this level the character must have earned the same EXP as a 29th level character and will not advance again until they have enough EXP to have become a 31st level character. The character's Hit points would be 4D12 + 4D10 + 12d8 + 20* con bonus. Once the “base” levels reach epic (or a sum of 40 class levels such as in this case), the character would progress by Epic rules for BAB and Saves. I think I included everything for that example (I sure HOPE I did at least). The character can’t do anything impressively for the EL, but that is in part due to the choices made. If this is confusing or non-helpful, please ignore. On the other hand, I hope it is useful. |
| Razorblade Smile09-18-04, 02:36 AM | It's not difficult if you look at it the way it is intended rather than the way the idiots (yeah, I called them idiots -- sue me) writing the book described it. Each gestalt class is exactly that: a class. You are not taking a level in Rogue and a level in Wizard, you're taking a level in the Rogue-Wizard gestalt class. Every combination is a unique class and is treated as such. The only real difference is that class features stack if they come from a related class. And by related class, I mean any class that has the same portion of another class in it; i.e, Rogue-Wizard and Cleric-Wizard have their Wizard levels stacking for purposes of class features. For example, if you're a 2nd level character with one level in Rogue-Wizard and one level in Cleric-Wizard, your BAB will be +0 (unless you're using the fractional rules) just as if you had taken one level in Rogue (which offers the best BAB progression of the first class) and one in Cleric (ditto). You also did not take levels in Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. You took levels in the Rogue-Wizard and Cleric-Wizard classes. I realize a lot of people on these boards don't quite grasp that concept thanks to the idiot writers and their bizarro way of describing gestalt classes, but such is life. |
| gbnogkfs09-18-04, 01:57 PM | It's not difficult if you look at it the way it is intended rather than the way the idiots (yeah, I called them idiots -- sue me) writing the book described it. Each gestalt class is exactly that: a class. You are not taking a level in Rogue and a level in Wizard, you're taking a level in the Rogue-Wizard gestalt class. Every combination is a unique class and is treated as such. The only real difference is that class features stack if they come from a related class. And by related class, I mean any class that has the same portion of another class in it; i.e, Rogue-Wizard and Cleric-Wizard have their Wizard levels stacking for purposes of class features. For example, if you're a 2nd level character with one level in Rogue-Wizard and one level in Cleric-Wizard, your BAB will be +0 (unless you're using the fractional rules) just as if you had taken one level in Rogue (which offers the best BAB progression of the first class) and one in Cleric (ditto). You also did not take levels in Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. You took levels in the Rogue-Wizard and Cleric-Wizard classes. I realize a lot of people on these boards don't quite grasp that concept thanks to the idiot writers and their bizarro way of describing gestalt classes, but such is life. Even if admittably yours is a perfectly sensate way of coming out of this mess even without fractional BAB and saves, I can't find where in the book it is said that this is the intended way for gestalt characters... |
| saethar09-18-04, 07:46 PM | Even if admittably yours is a perfectly sensate way of coming out of this mess even without fractional BAB and saves, I can't find where in the book it is said that this is the intended way for gestalt characters...Because it's not. There is no reason to assume a gestalt character will stick with the same 2 classes for an entire build. Even leaving out multiple core classes you still have PrC's. If you want to say that a "fighter/wizard" and a "paladin/wizard" are two different 'gestalt classes' then the wizard casting and such don't stack - cause they are different classes. For example a Fighter/Wizard (for the record, more than 4 levels of fighter is a waste, a good build for blade singer is Sorc5/Fighter2/Paladin of Freedom 3 - with the Fighter & Paladin levels on the same "side" obvisiously, but we'll stick with wizard for this example) could easily take the blade singer prc (as early as 6th level). So what does he do? Every even BLS level (2, 4, 6, 8, 10) he takes wizard (to get his full caster progression), while every even level (1, 3, 5, 7, 9) he takes a random useful class - this could be ranger, rogue, bard, cleric or he can continue advancing paladin for spellcasting, etc... So even a "basic" gish character could end up with 5 or more classes - only one of which is a prc, and several of which are paired up with wizard (this build would be wizard 15 I believe). Saethar :b: |
| Razorblade Smile09-18-04, 08:57 PM | Because it's not. There is no reason to assume a gestalt character will stick with the same 2 classes for an entire build. And this is different from a traditional game... how? :rolleyes: Even leaving out multiple core classes you still have PrC's. If you want to say that a "fighter/wizard" and a "paladin/wizard" are two different 'gestalt classes' then the wizard casting and such don't stack - cause they are different classes. Except that's a special characteristic of the gestalt rules. So even a "basic" gish character could end up with 5 or more classes - only one of which is a prc, and several of which are paired up with wizard (this build would be wizard 15 I believe). OH NO! The Horror! THE HORROR!!! Fighter-Wizard 10/Bladesinger-Wizard 10. Wow, look ma, I did it with two classes. And using only three classes -- Fighter-Wizard 10/Bladesinger-Fighter 5/Bladesinger-Wizard 5 -- you get full spellcasting, BAB, and Bladesinger class feature progression. And no XP penalty either. It's no different from a build that looks like Fighter 10/Weapon Master 10. You don't *need* to take the dozen idiotic class combinations places like the "Character Optimization" board masturbates to. But if you do and their levels are mismatched, expect to pay the consequences whether it's a gestalt game or a traditional game. |
| saethar09-19-04, 03:58 AM | And this is different from a traditional game... how? :rolleyes: Stating that "fighter-wizard" is a unique 'gestalt class' is what tries to make it different from a traditional game. If you follow this line of thought then none of your spellcasting stacks, just like sorc and wizard don't, because they are different classes. So your fighter-wizard 3 would not stack - for casting purposes - with your rogue-wizard 2 (or whatever). You would have the casting ability of a level 3 fighter-wizard and a level 2 rogue-wizard, not the casting ability of a level 5 wizard. At this point there is no purpose to gestalting at all cause your getting screwed left, right and side-ways. Except that's a special characteristic of the gestalt rules. The whole point is that it's NOT a characteristic of the gestalt rules, certain people on this thread think that it SHOULD be a characteristic of the rules - two very different things. OH NO! The Horror! THE HORROR!!! Fighter-Wizard 10/Bladesinger-Wizard 10. Wow, look ma, I did it with two classes. And using only three classes -- Fighter-Wizard 10/Bladesinger-Fighter 5/Bladesinger-Wizard 5 -- you get full spellcasting, BAB, and Bladesinger class feature progression. And no XP penalty either. It's no different from a build that looks like Fighter 10/Weapon Master 10. You don't *need* to take the dozen idiotic class combinations places like the "Character Optimization" board masturbates to. But if you do and their levels are mismatched, expect to pay the consequences whether it's a gestalt game or a traditional game. I won't even reply to this BS. CO is a valid and accepted way of building characters, if you don't like it fine - but it does play a part in the game and rules. If it didn't there would be no need for XP penalty rules which exist to stop players from taking a one level dip in several classes, just like how they changed the ranger in 3.5 to move TWF to 2nd level. Saethar :b: |
| Nazzareth09-22-04, 02:03 AM | I find quite amazing how something quite simple has been misread and turned into this mess. too many people are trying to abuse the gestalt rules beyond what they were made for to give the option of 2nd ed multi-classing for 3rd ed. Keep it simple stupid. |
| Kessalin Talira09-22-04, 02:44 AM | Now that I've read the entire thread thus far, I'll throw my two cents in. I agree with Razorblade Smile in that each possible Gestalt class combination should be looked at as a class all it's own... in a sense. Otherwise you end up with the collective brain hemorrhage that's been raging for the last four pages. Saethar, you're stating that treating a gestalt class combination as a discrete class makes it impossible for caster levels to stack (because fighter/wizard and rogue/wizard are two different classes, per your example), and that treating it otherwise would not be following the gestalt rules, because: The whole point is that it's NOT a characteristic of the gestalt rules, certain people on this thread think that it SHOULD be a characteristic of the rules - two very different things. So my question is: Where, in the two and a half pages of gestalt rules, does it say that this assumed level stacking ISN'T allowed? You say there's nothing saying it IS allowed, but because something isn't stated, that by no means indicates that it ISN'T allowed. It's the same argument, really, just depends on what side of the screen you're on. This is how I think I'm going to handle Gestalt, should it ever become an issue IMC: When determining saving throws, instead of values use Good or Poor for each save. Count all instances of good saves over all classes for each character level, counting each instance of a good save as a level of it's own. Then take each instance of the same save being poor, and treat each of those instances as a level. For Base Attack Bonus, I check the class level of each class taken at each Gestalt level, and the previous level of each class. If either of them advance a point, I give a +1 BAB. I suppose that this will allow a carefully built gestalt character to get +20 BAB at 20th level, and near full spellcasting in at least one caster class, but gestalts are supposed to be stronger. For Caster Level, each spellcasting class level taken at a gestalt character level gives one "Spellcaster Level (Class name)" class feature to the character. These count as Spellcaster levels for all intents and purposes, including new spells in a wizard's spellbook, number of spells known for a sorcerer, forgetting old spells and learning new ones for bards and sorcerers, etc. 1: Fighter1/Wizard1: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, 2+Int Skills, Fighter feat, Scribe Scroll, Familiar, Spellcaster Level. 2: Rogue1/Wizard2: BAB +0, Good Ref, Good Will, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 3: Barbarian1/Rogue2: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Ref, Barbarian HD, Rogue Skills, Evasion, Rage 1/day, Fast Movement. 4: Barbarian2/Cleric1: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Turn or Rebuke Undead, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Uncanny Dodge. In the four level example I just gave, there are three Good Forts, three Good Wills, and two Good Refs. There is one poor Fort, two poor Refs, and one poor Will. Comparing those to Table 3-1 in the PHB, three levels of a good Fort class gives +3, one level of poor gives +0. Three levels of a good Will class gives +3, one level of poor gives +0. Two levels of good Ref gives +3, two levels of poor gives +0. Total Modifiers for level 4: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3. Take it another four levels: 5: Cleric2/Fighter2: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, 2+Int Skill Points, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 6: Rogue3/Wizard3: +1 BAB, Good Will, Good Ref, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, +1d6 Sneak Attack, Trap Sense +1, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) 7: Wizard4/Cleric3: +1 BAB, Good Will, Good Fort, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Wizard), Spellcaster Level (Cleric) 8: Rogue4/Fighter3: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Ref, Fighter HD, Rogue Skills, Uncanny Dodge. Fort +5 (6 levels good Fort, 2 levels poor), Ref +5 (4 good Ref, 4 poor), Will +5 (6 levels good Will, 2 levels poor) Fighter 3, Barbarian 2, Wizard 4, Cleric 3, Rogue 4: +7 BAB Four more: 9: Wizard5/Rogue5: +0 BAB, Good Ref, Good Will, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, Bonus Wizard Feat, +1d6 Sneak Attack, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) 10: Wizard6/Cleric4: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 11: Rogue6/Cleric5: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Trap Sense +2 12: Fighter4/Wizard7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, Same Skills, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) Fighter 4, Wizard 7, Barbarian 2, Rogue 6, Cleric 5: +10 BAB, Fort (9 levels good, 3 levels poor) +7, Ref (6 good, 6 poor) +7, Will (10 levels good, 2 levels poor) +7 13: Barbarian3/Rogue7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Ref, Barbarian HD, Rogue Skills, Trap Sense +3, +1d6 Sneak Attack. 14: Fighter5/Barbarian4: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Rage 2/day 15: Cleric6/Wizard8: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 16: Fighter6/Wizard9: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, Same Skills, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard). Fighter 6, Wizard 9, Cleric 6, Rogue 7, Barbarian 4: +14 BAB, Fort (13 good, 3 poor) +9, Ref (7 good, 9 poor) +8, Will (12 good, 4 poor) +9. 17: Wizard10/Cleric7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Bonus Wizard Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard), Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 18: Cleric8/Rogue8: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 19: Cleric9/Barbarian5: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spellcaster Level (Cleric) 20: Cleric10/Rogue9: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, +1d6 SA, Trap Sense +3, Spellcaster Level (Cleric) Leon the Indecisive: Gestalt Half-Elf Male Fighter 6/Barbarian 5/Cleric 10/Wizard 10/Rogue 9 (40% XP penalty). Hit Dice: 5d12+5d10+7d8+3d6 (102 hp) Fort Save: +11 (17 Good, 3 Poor) Ref Save: +10 (9 Good, 11 Poor) Will Save: +13 (16 Good, 4 Poor, Wis mod added, +11 base) Base Attack Bonus: +18/+13/+8/+3 Class Features: 4 Bonus Fighter Feats, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Flanked by Rogue 18+ only), Rage 2/day, Fast Movement, 10 Cleric Spellcasting Levels, Turn or Rebuke Undead, 10 Wizard Spellcasting Levels, 2 Bonus Wizard Feats, Trap Sense +4, Sneak Attack +5d6, Evasion. Spellcasting: Wizard (5th level spells, 15 Intelligence): 0-Level: 4 1st: 5 2nd: 5 3rd: 3 4th: 3 5th: 2 Cleric (5th Level Spells, 15 Wisdom): 0-Level: 6 1st: 5+1 2nd: 5+1 3rd: 3+1 4th: 3+1 5th: 2+1 That's how I'd work up a 20 level, 5-class character. I hope it makes sense to more than just me, and provides a reasonable character as well. I don't know exactly how it compares to the fractional values in UA, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's close. EDIT: I just checked out ksbsnowowl's "Alternate" gestalt rules, and all things considered, I don't think they're that "alternate". I'd say he's got a pretty good idea how the gestalt rules work, and I recommend everyone with questions about it checks out his thread. |
| gbnogkfs09-22-04, 04:41 AM | Keep it simple stupid. thanks for your contribute :rolleyes: I agree with Razorblade Smile in that each possible Gestalt class combination should be looked at as a class all it's own... in a sense. Otherwise you end up with the collective brain hemorrhage that's been raging for the last four pages. SAVE that you then come up with another, still different from everybody else's, interpretation... :D |
| starfire31109-22-04, 08:39 AM | Now that I've read the entire thread thus far, I'll throw my two cents in. I agree with Razorblade Smile in that each possible Gestalt class combination should be looked at as a class all it's own... in a sense. Otherwise you end up with the collective brain hemorrhage that's been raging for the last four pages. This is how I think I'm going to handle Gestalt, should it ever become an issue IMC: When determining saving throws, instead of values use Good or Poor for each save. Count all instances of good saves over all classes for each character level, counting each instance of a good save as a level of it's own. Then take each instance of the same save being poor, and treat each of those instances as a level. For Base Attack Bonus, I check the class level of each class taken at each Gestalt level, and the previous level of each class. If either of them advance a point, I give a +1 BAB. I suppose that this will allow a carefully built gestalt character to get +20 BAB at 20th level, and near full spellcasting in at least one caster class, but gestalts are supposed to be stronger. For Caster Level, each spellcasting class level taken at a gestalt character level gives one "Spellcaster Level (Class name)" class feature to the character. These count as Spellcaster levels for all intents and purposes, including new spells in a wizard's spellbook, number of spells known for a sorcerer, forgetting old spells and learning new ones for bards and sorcerers, etc. 1: Fighter1/Wizard1: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, 2+Int Skills, Fighter feat, Scribe Scroll, Familiar, Spellcaster Level. 2: Rogue1/Wizard2: BAB +0, Good Ref, Good Will, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 3: Barbarian1/Rogue2: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Ref, Barbarian HD, Rogue Skills, Evasion, Rage 1/day, Fast Movement. 4: Barbarian2/Cleric1: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Turn or Rebuke Undead, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Uncanny Dodge. In the four level example I just gave, there are three Good Forts, three Good Wills, and two Good Refs. There is one poor Fort, two poor Refs, and one poor Will. Comparing those to Table 3-1 in the PHB, three levels of a good Fort class gives +3, one level of poor gives +0. Three levels of a good Will class gives +3, one level of poor gives +0. Two levels of good Ref gives +3, two levels of poor gives +0. Total Modifiers for level 4: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3. Take it another four levels: 5: Cleric2/Fighter2: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, 2+Int Skill Points, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 6: Rogue3/Wizard3: +1 BAB, Good Will, Good Ref, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, +1d6 Sneak Attack, Trap Sense +1, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) 7: Wizard4/Cleric3: +1 BAB, Good Will, Good Fort, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Wizard), Spellcaster Level (Cleric) 8: Rogue4/Fighter3: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Ref, Fighter HD, Rogue Skills, Uncanny Dodge. Fort +5 (6 levels good Fort, 2 levels poor), Ref +5 (4 good Ref, 4 poor), Will +5 (6 levels good Will, 2 levels poor) Fighter 3, Barbarian 2, Wizard 4, Cleric 3, Rogue 4: +7 BAB Four more: 9: Wizard5/Rogue5: +0 BAB, Good Ref, Good Will, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, Bonus Wizard Feat, +1d6 Sneak Attack, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) 10: Wizard6/Cleric4: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 11: Rogue6/Cleric5: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Trap Sense +2 12: Fighter4/Wizard7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, Same Skills, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard) Fighter 4, Wizard 7, Barbarian 2, Rogue 6, Cleric 5: +10 BAB, Fort (9 levels good, 3 levels poor) +7, Ref (6 good, 6 poor) +7, Will (10 levels good, 2 levels poor) +7 13: Barbarian3/Rogue7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Ref, Barbarian HD, Rogue Skills, Trap Sense +3, +1d6 Sneak Attack. 14: Fighter5/Barbarian4: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Rage 2/day 15: Cleric6/Wizard8: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 16: Fighter6/Wizard9: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, Same Skills, Bonus Fighter Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard). Fighter 6, Wizard 9, Cleric 6, Rogue 7, Barbarian 4: +14 BAB, Fort (13 good, 3 poor) +9, Ref (7 good, 9 poor) +8, Will (12 good, 4 poor) +9. 17: Wizard10/Cleric7: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Cleric HD, Same Skills, Bonus Wizard Feat, Spellcaster Level (Wizard), Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 18: Cleric8/Rogue8: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spellcaster Level (Cleric). 19: Cleric9/Barbarian5: +1 BAB, Good Fort, Good Will, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spellcaster Level (Cleric) 20: Cleric10/Rogue9: +1 BAB, All Good, Cleric HD, Rogue Skills, +1d6 SA, Trap Sense +3, Spellcaster Level (Cleric) Leon the Indecisive: Gestalt Half-Elf Male Fighter 6/Barbarian 5/Cleric 10/Wizard 10/Rogue 9 (40% XP penalty). Hit Dice: 5d12+5d10+7d8+3d6 (102 hp) Fort Save: +11 (17 Good, 3 Poor) Ref Save: +10 (9 Good, 11 Poor) Will Save: +13 (16 Good, 4 Poor, Wis mod added, +11 base) Base Attack Bonus: +18/+13/+8/+3 Class Features: 4 Bonus Fighter Feats, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Flanked by Rogue 18+ only), Rage 2/day, Fast Movement, 10 Cleric Spellcasting Levels, Turn or Rebuke Undead, 10 Wizard Spellcasting Levels, 2 Bonus Wizard Feats, Trap Sense +4, Sneak Attack +5d6, Evasion. Spellcasting: Wizard (5th level spells, 15 Intelligence): 0-Level: 4 1st: 5 2nd: 5 3rd: 3 4th: 3 5th: 2 Cleric (5th Level Spells, 15 Wisdom): 0-Level: 6 1st: 5+1 2nd: 5+1 3rd: 3+1 4th: 3+1 5th: 2+1 That's how I'd work up a 20 level, 5-class character. I hope it makes sense to more than just me, and provides a reasonable character as well. I don't know exactly how it compares to the fractional values in UA, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's close. My question is, if you agreed with the Idea that each class combination should be looked at as an individual class then why did you implent your build in a different way. I think you misunderstood what that system means let me show you using the build yo just made. 1: 1st level Fighter/Wizard: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Fighter HD, 2+Int Skills, Fighter feat, Scribe Scroll, Familiar, Spellcaster Level. 2: 1st level Rogue/Wizard: BAB +0, Good Ref, Good Will, Rogue HD, Rogue Skills, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Spellcaster Level (Wizard). 3: 1st level Barbarian/Rogue: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Ref, Barbarian HD, Rogue Skills, Evasion, Rage 1/day, Fast Movement. 4: 1st level Barbarian/Cleric: BAB +1, Good Fort, Good Will, Barbarian HD, Barbarian Skills, Turn or Rebuke Undead, Spellcaster Level (Cleric), Uncanny Dodge. if you allow caster levels of like casters to stack thsi would give you the followoing level 4 character HD 1D10+1D6+2D12 BAB +3, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5, cast as Wizard 2 and cleric 1 The big thing is the saves at each first level you get the +2 bonus. |
| saethar09-22-04, 08:51 AM | SAVE that you then come up with another, still different from everybody else's, interpretation... :DThat's what makes the gestalt rules so much fun ;) I think we've covered all the bases on possible rules interpritations (ie frac vs non-frac, what aspect means, etc...), and it's going to come down to a rule zero for each campaign. Obviously asking the Mages didn't help all that much, and ironicly sided part-way with my view, and part-way with the overwhelming view (you got BAB, I got BSB). We could email the Sage, or possibly post to the designer's forum, but barring that is there anything left to discuss? Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-22-04, 09:00 AM | Saethar, you're stating that treating a gestalt class combination as a discrete class makes it impossible for caster levels to stack (because fighter/wizard and rogue/wizard are two different classes, per your example), and that treating it otherwise would not be following the gestalt rules, because: So my question is: Where, in the two and a half pages of gestalt rules, does it say that this assumed level stacking ISN'T allowed? You say there's nothing saying it IS allowed, but because something isn't stated, that by no means indicates that it ISN'T allowed. It's the same argument, really, just depends on what side of the screen you're on.Argument from Ignorance (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php) "Lack of proof is not proof." EDIT: I just checked out ksbsnowowl's "Alternate" gestalt rules, and all things considered, I don't think they're that "alternate". I'd say he's got a pretty good idea how the gestalt rules work, and I recommend everyone with questions about it checks out his thread.I'll locate the thread later - but unless the rules are a quote from UA then they are an Alternate interpritation at the least, and Alternate rules at the most. Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-22-04, 10:09 AM | Just for Clearification here is a 20 level build using my interpritation of the rules, it would probably be good if we got a full build posted for each version of the rules, since that was, in my opinion, the worst failing of the rules as presented in UA. Wild Elf : Sorcerer 12/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Paladin of Freedom 3/Barbarian 2/Bladesinger 6/Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 3/Spellguard 5/Expert 2 1 - Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1 (+1; +2/+0/+2) 2 - Sorcerer 2/Monk 1 (+1; +2/+2/+2) 3 - Sorcerer 3/Monk 2 (+1; +1/+1/+1) 4 - Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Freedom 1 (+1; +2/+0/+1) 5 - Sorcerer 5/Barbarian 1 (+1; +2/+0/+0) 6 - Bladesinger 1/Swashbuckler 1 (+1; +0/+2/+2) 7 - Bladesinger 2/Sorcerer 6 (+1; +1/+1/+1) 8 - Bladesinger 3/Ranger 1 (+1; +2/+2/+0) 9 - Bladesinger 4/Sorcerer 7 (+1; +0/+1/+1) 10 - Bladesinger 5/Fighter 2 (+1; +1/+0/+0) 11 - Bladesinger 6/Sorcerer 8 (+1; +0/+1/+1) 12 - Spellguard 1/Paladin of Freedom 2 (+1; +1/+0/+2) 13 - Spellguard 2/Expert 1 (+1; +2/+2/+1) 14 - Spellguard 3/Barbarian 2 (+1; +1/+1/+0) 15 - Spellguard 4/Expert 2 (+1; +1/+1/+1) 16 - Spellguard 5/Swashbuckler 2 (+1; +1/+0/+0) 17 - Sorcerer 9/Ranger 2 (+1; +1/+1/+0) 18 - Sorcerer 10/Paladin of Freedom 3 (+1; +0/+1/+1) 19 - Sorcerer 11/Swashbuckler 3 (+1; +0/+1/+1) 20 - Sorcerer 12/Ranger 3 (+1; +1/+1/+1) BAB +20; BSB +21/+18/+18 20 levels of Sorcerer casting (12 from sorcerer, 3 from Bladesinger, 5 from Spellguard) No XP Penalty: Wild elf gives sorcerer, PrC's don't count, everything else is within 1 level. NOTES: Monk variant from UA, cobra style; Expert is from UA generics, our campaign agreed to add it to the core classes selection (good fort & ref), personal choice, replace with rogue if you want; Spellguard is from player's guide to faerun. It could be replaced with archmage in theory (didn't check pre-req's for that class though) though you may have to adjust when you start advancing it. The only thing's about this character still in the air are when I'll be taking the first levels for Fighter, Paladin of Freedom and Barbarian. Obviously this build does use a few variant rules for stuff like paladin multi-class, etc... Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-22-04, 10:37 AM | I actually asked about gestalt builds over at Andy's website (andycollins.net) so we might get some actual answers there. What's the BAB progression on spellguard, for reference? (I figured out the good will save from the build, but what's the BAB?) -Archmage prereqs, by the way: To qualify to become an archmage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks. Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus in two schools of magic. Spells: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools. (SRD: Prestige Classes.) |
| saethar09-22-04, 07:59 PM | I actually asked about gestalt builds over at Andy's website (andycollins.net) so we might get some actual answers there. What's the BAB progression on spellguard, for reference? (I figured out the good will save from the build, but what's the BAB?) -Archmage prereqs, by the way: (SRD: Prestige Classes.) Spellguard has 1/2 BAB progression. It gives some stuff for FR specific, and some metamagic feats. It's only 5 levels (like most (all?) of the PrC's in PGtF). Saethar :b: |
| Nazzareth09-23-04, 02:10 AM | You have to look at what the rules intended that is mixing two classes only, all the examples are of two class combinations. It seems people are mixing things up when they start multi-classing within the gestalt system. When multi-classing gestalt characters the idea is still the same and uses the same principle that you are mixing two classes together. here's an example of a multi-class 10th gestalt with levels as follows Ranger 6, fighter 4, Rogue 10 Step one: split into two Character classes You can not have levels of the same cores class in each character class. example Character Class One= Ranger 6, fighter 4 Character Class Two= Rogue 10 Step two: add up the BAB and saves for each class (as for a normal character) example Character Class One the Ranger 6, fighter 4 class has a BAB of 10, fort 9, ref 6, will 3 Character Class Two the Rogue 10 class has a BAB of 7, fort 3, ref 7, will 3 Step three:Take the better progression Character Class one for BAB and fort saves Character Class two for ref saves your choice of class for the will save as they are even (At this point). Thats how it works |
| gbnogkfs09-23-04, 08:44 AM | Thats how it works that's how you (and the guy who started the other thread) intend it to work that doesn't mean is a bad way, or taht you are wrong in posting it, it means that if you can't find any two people in this thread who came up with the same interpretation the reason is probably the rules are open to many interpretation. |
| MushroomSpore09-23-04, 05:17 PM | reason is probably the rules are open to many interpretation. But *that* goes against the spirit of DnD in general. Aside from DM perogative and the occasional poorly written passage, there is only *one* correct interperetation of each rule. Nowhere in DnD does it say "you can do it however you want, even if it violates common sense (three worst-bab classes combined gets you the attacks of a fighter?) or is otherwise broken as all hell. Cause hey, it's all good. *lights one up*" All that remains is finding out *exactly* what was intended when using three or more classes in a gestalt...assuming, of course, that using more than two classes does not go against the spirit of the system. Like Nazzareth said, all the examples use only two classes. Gee, I wonder if that means anything? ;) |
| gbnogkfs09-23-04, 07:26 PM | But *that* goes against the spirit of DnD in general. Aside from DM perogative and the occasional poorly written passage, there is only *one* correct interperetation of each rule. Nowhere in DnD does it say "you can do it however you want, even if it violates common sense (three worst-bab classes combined gets you the attacks of a fighter?) or is otherwise broken as all hell. Cause hey, it's all good. *lights one up*" All that remains is finding out *exactly* what was intended yeah, you can see the things that way ;) when using three or more classes in a gestalt...assuming, of course, that using more than two classes does not go against the spirit of the system. Like Nazzareth said, all the examples use only two classes. Gee, I wonder if that means anything? ;) "Each time he [the character] gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspect of each, and applies them to his characteristics" "it's ok to combine a Prestige class and a regular class. (...) Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal..." :D |
| Nazzareth09-23-04, 08:57 PM | Taking the best aspect from each class is not a rule mechanic, the mechanic's for taking taking the best aspects from each class are given under the heading building a gestalt character and each with it own sub-heading, the phrase takes the best aspect of each does not negate the mechanics. Best progression for BAB and Saves, larger HD, highest skills. |
| saethar09-23-04, 09:55 PM | But *that* goes against the spirit of DnD in general. Aside from DM perogative and the occasional poorly written passage, there is only *one* correct interperetation of each rule. Nowhere in DnD does it say "you can do it however you want, even if it violates common sense (three worst-bab classes combined gets you the attacks of a fighter?) or is otherwise broken as all hell. Cause hey, it's all good. *lights one up*" All that remains is finding out *exactly* what was intended when using three or more classes in a gestalt...assuming, of course, that using more than two classes does not go against the spirit of the system. Like Nazzareth said, all the examples use only two classes. Gee, I wonder if that means anything? ;) It means that they didn't put enough thought or planning into adding the rules to UA. The rules very explicately state to choose two classes when you advance a level. They do NOT say "advance your previously choosen classes another level" - because that is against the spirit of 3.* D&D which has always allowed multiclassing, WITH penalties where necessary to balance twinkes. You can even multiclass with "restricted" classes (pal or monk) as long as you accept the penality that you can't go back into that class. D&D optional and add-on rules have always worked such that if rules do not directly "over-write" the standard rules then you use the standard rules to answer any questions. Gestalt rules do NOT tell you how to multiclass, so you use the PHB multiclass rules. Doing anything else is rule's zero & campaign specific, which is fine since gestalt is an optional ruleset anyway. We've had what, 4 or 5 different "versions" of how these rules should work posted, just in this thread alone. Even the mages didn't really try to give a worthwhile answer (or even read the rules based on their respose). Barring a respose from the developers/designers is there anything more to discuss? Just as I'm sure I can't convince you of MY viewpoint, there is no way you'll convice me that my character (posted above) should be penalized because some munchkin wants to do sorc20/ftr1/psion19. The above build has 16 levels of Full BAB, paired with 4 levels of 3/4 BAB on one side, and 6 level so Full BAB paired with 14 levels of 1/2 BAB on the other side. For this character to have anything less than +18 BAB would be completely wrong, and at that point it is mechanicly simpler to just give him the +20. (Someone else can run the numbers, but I believe FRAC + best progression will get a +18 or +19). Saethar :b: |
| saethar09-23-04, 10:02 PM | Taking the best aspect from each class is not a rule mechanic, the mechanic's for taking taking the best aspects from each class are given under the heading building a gestalt character and each with it own sub-heading, the phrase takes the best aspect of each does not negate the mechanics. Best progression for BAB and Saves, larger HD, highest skills. Taking the best progression is ONLY mentioned for taking your first two classes at CHARACTER level 1. Everything else mentions "aspect" because once you are past ChL 1 you have to do it differently. As I've said before, just allowing the taking of Prestige classes (which they explicately do in the rules in UA) means that there have to be rules for multiclassing, and barring new rules being written you have to use the rules in the PHB because they are the only rules which exist for multiclassing in D&D 3.5. Also as mentioned before if you only allow two classes per gestalt character there is NO question on how the rules work. Full BAB beats all, 3/4 BAB beats 1/2, saves follow progression (good, or poor). Without adding more classes the rules are as straight forward as non-gestalt characters. Saethar :b: |
| Kiri Sittori09-23-04, 11:43 PM | Taking the best progression is ONLY mentioned for taking your first two classes at CHARACTER level 1. Everything else mentions "aspect" because once you are past ChL 1 you have to do it differently. As I've said before, just allowing the taking of Prestige classes (which they explicately do in the rules in UA) means that there have to be rules for multiclassing, and barring new rules being written you have to use the rules in the PHB because they are the only rules which exist for multiclassing in D&D 3.5. Also as mentioned before if you only allow two classes per gestalt character there is NO question on how the rules work. Full BAB beats all, 3/4 BAB beats 1/2, saves follow progression (good, or poor). Without adding more classes the rules are as straight forward as non-gestalt characters. Saethar :b: Right, which is still where all the disagreements are taking place... because "aspect" can be a progression, or the visible result thereof. I've tried another email, this time to Andy himself. I've gotten four responses over at Andy's forum. All relate to the Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 example. 1. Definitely supports progression comparisons. (Ie, that character has +15 BAB.) 2. Says that progression comparisons (and hints at fractional) should be used, but believes that UA-RAW supports the command-line method that you use. (It doesn't --- there IS no UA-RAW on this. 3. Finds it absurd that a fourth level character can have a +8 on a save, through multiclassing :) 4. Absolutely prefers fractional method, the alternative being to bar multi"class" gestalting altogether. |
| saethar09-24-04, 12:07 AM | Right, which is still where all the disagreements are taking place... because "aspect" can be a progression, or the visible result thereof. I've tried another email, this time to Andy himself. I've gotten four responses over at Andy's forum. All relate to the Wiz20/Ftr1-Clr19 example. 1. Definitely supports progression comparisons. (Ie, that character has +15 BAB.) 2. Says that progression comparisons (and hints at fractional) should be used, but believes that UA-RAW supports the command-line method that you use. (It doesn't --- there IS no UA-RAW on this. 3. Finds it absurd that a fourth level character can have a +8 on a save, through multiclassing :) 4. Absolutely prefers fractional method, the alternative being to bar multi"class" gestalting altogether. 3. A standard multiclass character can have 1 save of +8 at level 4, the "absurdity" comes in when the gestalt has +8 in 1, and +4 to +6 in the other two *shrug* Saethar :b: |
| Nazzareth09-24-04, 01:00 AM | What do the words 'a gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels' mean? Given that this statement is written after the mechanic's for creating a 1st gestalt character are explained. Clearly this means you follow those mechanic's stated eariler then take best aspects. Why use the term best progression if it only applies at first level, wouldn't saying take the "larger value" be more appropriate if only applies to 1st level character creation. |
| gbnogkfs09-24-04, 03:25 AM | What do the words 'a gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels' mean? Given that this statement is written after the mechanic's for creating a 1st gestalt character are explained. Clearly this means you follow those mechanic's stated eariler then take best aspects. Why use the term best progression if it only applies at first level, wouldn't saying take the "larger value" be more appropriate if only applies to 1st level character creation. you can say whatever you want, the fact is that "best progression" when referred to a single level is not defined at all |
| saethar09-24-04, 04:00 AM | What do the words 'a gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels' mean? Given that this statement is written after the mechanic's for creating a 1st gestalt character are explained. Clearly this means you follow those mechanic's stated eariler then take best aspects. Why use the term best progression if it only applies at first level, wouldn't saying take the "larger value" be more appropriate if only applies to 1st level character creation. All I can say to this is that the rules state "better progression" for BAB & BSB for first level only, it isn't mentioned in the rules again (to my knowledge, let me know if I missed it elsewhere). It then later, when talking about adding the 2nd and higher character class, says "A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels." (emphasis mine). This is on pg. 73 of UA. It also doesn't state that it changes standard multiclassing rules which is why I still feel that when you add a new class you get the full +2 BSB that every 1st class level gets in one or more saves. No where, except in the examples, does it mention anything about being restricted to a certain number of classes, and in fact references "choosing" new classes several times in both the introdction text and in the rules for advancing your character to 2nd (and higher) character level. Saethar :b: |