Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FeceMan 09-13-06, 02:33 PM	Note: colors indicate the time of addition/revision. Black is the original, red is from the first revision, blue is from the second, and green will be from the third. More to come, I'm sure. Class Features (Additions + Changes) AC Bonus (Ex): As the monk ability. Animal Companion (Ex): As the wild cohort feat. Prerequisite: Survival 4 ranks, knowledge (nature) 4 ranks. Special: A character must choose between a familiar and an animal companion. He may not have both. Taking this class feature does not prohibit a character from taking the familiar class feature; he simply must choose to have either an animal companion or familiar. Canny Defense (Ex): As the duelist ability, but the maximum bonus is limited to +1 per two character levels. Prerequisite: Base Reflex save +4, tumble 8 ranks, dodge. Companion Familiar (Ex): A character's animal companion gains some of the benefits of being a familiar in addition to the benefits of being an animal companion. Upon taking this class feature, a character must dismiss his familiar if he has one. (He may do this without risking a loss of experience.) Afterwards, he must acquire an animal companion by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer, unless he already has an animal companion. When a character has an animal companion, the animal companion becomes a companion familiar, changing its type to "magical beast (augmented animal)". The companion familiar gains the intelligence and special abilities that a familiar of the character's spellcaster level would, but its hit dice, hit points, attack bonus, saving throws, feats, and skills are determined as for an animal companion. Its attack bonus and saves remain as an animal's, not a magical beast's. A character may bestow upon the companion familiar harmless spells as if it were an animal instead of a magical beast. Spells that normally only affect familiars can also affect the companion familiar. In qualifying for this class feature, a character must have both the ability to acquire a familiar and an animal companion, but he still may not have both. If a companion familiar is killed or dismissed, a character can acquire a new one by performing the initial ceremony required to acquire an animal companion. Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks, animal companion class feature, familiar class feature (or the ability to summon a familiar). Special: This class feature must be admitted by one's DM prior to taking it. It is a powerful class feature that allows for one to create an exceptionally potent bodyguard. Due to the vast array of spells from which a character can choose in the generic class system, the potential for an imbalancing companion familiar is higher than normal. However, this does not mean that it is inherently imbalanced; the animal companion class feature presented in the generic character class system is far weaker than a druid's standard animal companion. Despite this, taking this class feature still requires DM approval. Damage Reduction (Ex): As the barbarian ability. Damage reduction begins at +1/- and improves by +1/- every three levels thereafter. Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +5, character level 7. Death Attack (Ex): As the assassin ability. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + INT modifier. Prerequisite: Hide 11 ranks, move silently 11 ranks, sneak attack +2d6, poison use. Elaborate Parry (Ex): As the duelist ability, but add +1 dodge bonus to AC per two character levels. Prerequisite: Base Reflex save +3, tumble 8 ranks, dodge. Evasion (Ex): As the rogue ability. Prerequisite: Base Reflex save +3. Familiar: Combines the wizard ability with the improved familiar feat. Use spellcaster class level to determine familiar's abilities. Prerequisite: ability to cast spells. Special: A character must choose between a familiar and an animal companion. He may not have both. Taking this class feature does not prohibit a character from taking the animal companion class feature; he simply must choose to have either an animal companion or familiar. Fast Movement (Ex): As the barbarian ability. Flurry of Blows (Ex): As the monk ability. This class feature gradually reduces the penalties of flurrying based off of character level (identical to the monk ability), but it does not progress to the greater flurry ability. Prerequisite: Dex 13. Fighter-Only Feats: For purposes of meeting the prerequisite level of fighter required by some feats, a character's class levels count as fighter levels. Greater Flurry (Ex): As the monk ability. Prerequisite: character level 10, flurry of blows. Greater Fast Movement (Ex): Add +30 feet to your base movement speed, as the monk ability. Prerequisites: Tumble 18 ranks, fast movement, improved fast movement. Greater Musical Inspiration (Su): Combines the inspire heroics and mass suggestion bardic music abilities. A character must still meet the minimum number of skill ranks required to use an individual musical ability. Prerequisite: Perform (any) 15 ranks, musical inspiration, improved musical inspiration. Greater Rage (Ex): Combines the mighty rage and tireless rage barbarian class features. Prerequisites: Intimidate 18 ranks, rage, greater rage. Greater Unarmed Strike (Ex): As the monk ability. Damage done by unarmed strikes increases to 2d10 (based on a medium-sized monk; damage scales according to the chart in the Player's Handbook if a character is any size other than medium). Prerequisite: character level 15, unarmed strike, improved unarmed strike. Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): As the ranger ability. Prerequisite: Hide 18 ranks. Improved Musical Inspiration (Su): Combines the suggestion, inspire greatness, and song of freedom bardic music abilities. A character must still meet the minimum number of skill ranks required to use an individual musical ability. Prerequisite: Perform (any) 9 ranks, musical inspiration. Improved Fast Movement (Ex): Add +20 feet to your base movement speed, as the monk ability. Prerequisites: Tumble 11 ranks, fast movement. Improved Rage (Ex): Combines the greater rage and indomitable will barbarian abilities. Prerequisite: Intimidate 12 ranks, rage. Improved Evasion (Ex): As the rogue ability. Prerequisites: Base Reflex save +7, evasion. Improved Unarmed Strike (Ex): As the monk ability. Damage done by unarmed strikes increases to 2d6 (based on a medium-sized monk; damage scales according to the chart in the Player's Handbook if a character is any size other than medium). Prerequisite: character level 10, unarmed strike. Lore: As the bardic knowledge class feature. All class levels stack to determine the bonus to the check. Prerequisite: Knowledge (any) as a class skill. Mettle (Ex): If a character makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that would normally have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of "Will half" or "Fortitude partial") he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping character does not gain the benefit of this class feature. Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +3, base Will save +3. Musical Inspiration (Su): Combines the countersong, fascinate, inspire courage, and inspire competence bardic music abilities. All class levels stack to determine number of daily uses. A character must still meet the minimum number of skill ranks required to use an individual musical ability. Prerequisite: Perform (any) 4 ranks. Poison Use: As the assassin ability. Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, hide 9 ranks, move silently 9 ranks. Precise Strike (Ex): As the duelist ability, but +2d6 damage. Prerequisite: Base Reflex save +4. Rage (Ex): As the barbarian ability, once per day, plus one additional time per day at fourth level and every four levels thereafter. Prerequisite: Intimidate 4 ranks. Smite Evil (Su): As the paladin ability, once per day, plus one additional daily use per five character levels. All class levels stack to determine damage. Prerequisite: good alignment. Smite Good (Su): As the blackguard ability, once per day, plus one additional daily use per five character levels. All class levels stack to determine damage. Prerequisite: evil alignment. Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): As the cleric ability. Use unmodified caster level to determine turning or rebuking capability. (The Practiced Spellcaster feat counts as a modification of caster level.) Prerequisite: ability to cast spells. Turn/Rebuke Outsider (Su): As the turn/rebuke undead class feature, but applicable to outsiders. A character's number of uses of this class feature are determined seperately from his or her ability to turn or rebuke undead; the attempts are essentially in two different "pools". This class feature is treated as the prerequisite for feats that require the ability to turn or rebuke undead. The uses per day can be used to fuel certain feats (such as divine might or divine metamagic). Prerequisites: ablility to cast spells. Trap Sense (Ex): Combines the rogue abilities trap sense and trapfinding. Similar to the rogue, a character with the trap sense class feature does not gain any bonuses from the trap sense ability until his or her third HD. They accrue normally from that point on. Prerequisite: Search 4 ranks. Unarmed Strike (Ex): Combines the improved unarmed strike feat with the monk ability. Damage is 1d8 (based on a medium-sized monk; damage scales according to the chart in the Player's Handbook if a character is any size other than medium). Special: If higher, the unarmed damage supercedes any damage normally provided by wearing gauntlets. The wearer still gains any benefits of wearing the gaunlets, however. If a character wears gauntlets with special properties (such as a bonus to damage), treat all his or her unarmed strikes as having that bonus. Woodland Expertise (Ex): Combines the woodland stride, trackless step, and nature sense druid abilities. Prerequisite: Survival 8 ranks. Base Classes (Changes) The spellcaster’s HD is changed to a d6. The expert’s HD is changed to a d8. The warrior is now proficient with all armor and shields. All characters have Profession as a class skill. Spellcasters gain Spellcraft as a class skill, in addition to their normal allotment of class skills. Spellcasting (Changes) Due to there being no difference between arcane and divine spells, arcane spell failure does not exist. Spellcasters may choose to specialize in a school of magic. Doing so is detailed in the text below: Note: Due to the nature of the spellcasting with the generic character classes, it is highly recommended that a DM uses the variant thematic spellcaster feature listed after school specialization. It allows for a good deal of customizability while preventing a character from picking out a number of spells from the various class lists that synergize too well together (and thus affecting balance). However, because this requires a significant amount of additional work on both the part of the DM and the player, it is still considered a variant rule. School Specialization A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a spellcaster may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a spellcaster to learn extra spells from his chosen school, but he then never learns to cast spells from some other schools. A specialist spellcaster knows one additional spell of his specialty school per spell level which does not count against his total spells known for that particular spell level. He also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify spells or effects related to his chosen school. The spellcaster must choose whether to specialize and, if he does so, choose his specialty at 1st level. At this time, he must also give up two other schools of magic (unless he chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become his prohibited schools. A spellcaster may become a double specialist if he so chooses, or he may focus himself solely on his chosen school by becoming a sole practitioner. A double specialist chooses an additional specialty school, receiving the bonuses and prohibitions as normal. A sole practitioner is a specialist who chooses to give up two or more schools of magic in addition to those already chosen as prohibited, gaining additional bonuses. A sole practitioner who gives up two more schools of magic gains an additional spell known per spell level that does not count against his total spells known for that particular spell level, a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify spells or effects related to his chosen school. In addition, his spells of his chosen school become harder to resist, and their save DCs are increased by one. These bonuses stack with those gained through specialization, and the bonus to save DCs stacks with other effects that grant a similar bonus (such as the Spell Focus feat). A sole practitioner who further gives up two schools of magic (for a cumulative total of six prohibited schools) gains an additional spell known per spell level that does not count against his total spells known for that particular spell level, a +2 bonus on spellcraft checks to identify spells or effects related to his chosen school. In addition, his spells of his chosen school become even more difficult to resist, and their save DCs are increased by one. Also, he casts all the spells of his chosen school as a caster of one level higher (this does not affect the rate at which he learns spells, however). These bonuses stack with those gained through specialization, and the bonus to save DCs stacks with other effects that grant a similar bonus (such as the Spell Focus feat). A double specialist may not give up additional schools of magic in order to gain any of these benefits. A spellcaster can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the spellcaster, and he can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. He may not change either his specialization or his prohibited schools later. The eight schools of magic are abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation. Spells that do not fall into any of these schools are called universal spells. Abjuration Spells that protect, block, or banish. An abjuration specialist is called an abjurer. Conjuration Spells that bring creatures or materials to the caster. A conjuration specialist is called a conjurer. Divination Spells that reveal information. A divination specialist is called a diviner. Unlike the other specialists, a diviner must give up only one other school. If he chooses to become a sole practitioner in divination, he has to give up a total of one less school than what another sole practitioner of the same degree of specialization would. Enchantment Spells that imbue the recipient with some property or grant the caster power over another being. An enchantment specialist is called an enchanter. Evocation Spells that manipulate energy or create something from nothing. An evocation specialist is called an evoker. Illusion Spells that alter perception or create false images. An illusion specialist is called an illusionist. Necromancy Spells that manipulate, create, or destroy life or life force. A necromancy specialist is called a necromancer. Transmutation Spells that transform the recipient physically or change its properties in a more subtle way. A transmutation specialist is called a transmuter. Universal Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or as a prohibited school. Only a limited number of spells fall into this category. Variant: Thematic Spellcasters At the GM’s discretion, a spellcaster may design a list of spells that are thematic for his character. This allows him a narrower range of spells but a larger quantity available to him (similar to the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage). Prestige Classes Eldritch Knight v1.0 Hit Die: d6. Requirements: To qualify to become an eldritch knight, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Must be able to cast third-level spells. Base Save Bonuses: One good save and two poor saves. Class Skills: Any six skills as class skills, plus Craft and Profession. Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Eldritch Knight Level BAB Good Poor Special Spells per day --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1st +1 +2 +0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 3th +3 +3 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 6th +6 +5 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 7th +7 +5 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 8th +8 +6 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 9th +9 +6 +3 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 10th +10 +7 +3 +1 level of existing spellcasting class Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency Eldritch knights gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day. Bonus Feat At first level, an eldritch knight gains a bonus feat. He must meet any prerequisites of the bonus feat. Spellwarrior v1.0 Hit Die: d10. Requirements: To qualify to become a spellwarrior, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +6 Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Must be able to cast second-level spells. Base Save Bonuses: Two good saves and one poor save. Class Skills: Any four skills as class skills, plus Craft and Profession. Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Spellwarrior Level BAB Good Poor Special Spells per day -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1st +1 +2 +0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 3th +3 +3 +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 5th +5 +4 +1 Bonus feat 6th +6 +5 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 7th +7 +5 +2 8th +8 +6 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 9th +9 +6 +3 10th +10 +7 +3 Bonus feat +1 level of existing spellcasting class Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency Spellwarriors gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells At every even numbered level reached, a spellwarrior gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of spellwarrior to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds each level of spellwarrior for the purpose of determining spells per day. Bonus Feat At first level and again at fifth and tenth, a spellwarrior gains a bonus feat. Trickster v1.0 Hit Die: d6. Requirements: To qualify to become a trickster, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Skills: Any six skills with four ranks, two other skills with 8 ranks. Spells: Must be able to cast second-level spells. Base Save Bonuses: One good save and two poor saves. Class Skills: Any twelve skills as class skills, plus Craft and Profession. Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier. Table: The Trickster Level BAB Good Poor Special Spells per day -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1st +0 +2 +0 2nd +1 +3 +0 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 3th +1 +3 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 4th +2 +4 +1 5th +2 +4 +1 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 6th +3 +5 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 7th +3 +5 +2 8th +4 +6 +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 9th +4 +6 +3 +1 level of existing spellcasting class 10th +5 +7 +3 +1 level of existing spellcasting class Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency Tricksters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells At every level except first, fourth, and seventh, a trickster gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of trickster to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became an trickster, he must decide to which class he adds each level of trickster for the purpose of determining spells per day. Yay or nay?
FeceMan 09-14-06, 11:23 AM	What? No comments? Is it THAT good that you're left speechless in wonder? Or is it THAT bad that you're left speechless in horror?
Egarb 09-14-06, 12:45 PM	It seems good to me, I didnt review it in depth, but i like the addition of more class features from the base classes. I like that there are no skill requirements for the PrCs since they are useless for keeping generic characters out of them.
Gwenfloor 09-14-06, 07:30 PM	I think that these are very balanced and very good, adding even more versatility to the Base Classes.
TheDarkLord 09-15-06, 05:31 AM	Unarmed strike would be a must for any Full Spellcaster.
FeceMan 09-15-06, 01:20 PM	Unarmed strike would be a must for any Full Spellcaster. Why do you say that?
TheDarkLord 09-16-06, 01:09 AM	Why do you say that? I mainly play Wizards and Psions for personal reasons and this one feat gives me proficiency in a weapon by 20th level that deals more damage than any sword/bow/axe or whatever. I'm just saying, if you were going to give the damage progression do it in several feat steps. Outside of a spellcaster any character would do well to take this feat to give them an awesome weapon they could never loose, outside of having their limbs chopped off. Overall I do like the idea of the expanded classes, this one feat just seem to jump out at me seeing what I would like to have with my spellcasters.
FeceMan 09-16-06, 04:52 PM	I mainly play Wizards and Psions for personal reasons and this one feat gives me proficiency in a weapon by 20th level that deals more damage than any sword/bow/axe or whatever. I'm just saying, if you were going to give the damage progression do it in several feat steps. Outside of a spellcaster any character would do well to take this feat to give them an awesome weapon they could never loose, outside of having their limbs chopped off. Overall I do like the idea of the expanded classes, this one feat just seem to jump out at me seeing what I would like to have with my spellcasters. I'll have to fix that, then. EDIT: Changes are in red. Does greater flurry need to be a separate feature, or could it be included with the flurry of blows ability?
TheDarkLord 09-16-06, 11:56 PM	I would personally make it a seperate ability. Changes are nice IMHO, keep up the good work.
FeceMan 09-17-06, 01:10 AM	Newest additions/changes are in blue. Is there anything else I ought to add? I'm thinking maybe mettle, but I'm not sure if that's really needed. EDIT: As you can see, I like the duelist class. It sucking makes me cry, though.
FeceMan 09-18-06, 11:34 PM	Bump for great justice. Need feedback.
Gwenfloor 09-19-06, 01:18 PM	How about adding in Illiteracy from the Barbarian class feature as some sort of flaw? I suggest giving the player +1 to two abilities other than Forgery and Decipher Script. It could be bought off with skill points, as normal, but would that make all characters start Illiterate in order to get the skill bonuses?
FeceMan 09-19-06, 01:39 PM	How about adding in Illiteracy from the Barbarian class feature as some sort of flaw? I suggest giving the player +1 to two abilities other than Forgery and Decipher Script. It could be bought off with skill points, as normal, but would that make all characters start Illiterate in order to get the skill bonuses? That's an interesting idea, but it's not what I'm really trying to do as a whole. I don't really feel like messing with traits and flaws; right now, I just want to improve the generic character system.
FeceMan 09-20-06, 11:53 PM	halp tell me whut 2 do (That is, continue PEACH-ing the list. And giving ideas on what could be added.)
Gwenfloor 09-21-06, 12:58 PM	Your Greater Unarmed Strike has only Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. Players who do not want to waste an extra bonus feat will just take Unarmed Strike, skip the Improved Unarmed Strike, then just get Greater Unarmed Strike. Improved Unarmed Strike has itself as a prerequisite. In the Magic Section, you say that their is no difference between Arcane and Divine Magic, but several times you say 'Arcane Magic.'
FeceMan 09-21-06, 01:13 PM	Your Greater Unarmed Strike has only Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. Players who do not want to waste an extra bonus feat will just take Unarmed Strike, skip the Improved Unarmed Strike, then just get Greater Unarmed Strike. Improved Unarmed Strike has itself as a prerequisite. In the Magic Section, you say that their is no difference between Arcane and Divine Magic, but several times you say 'Arcane Magic.' Fixed. Although, if they tried that, I would yell at them.
Gwenfloor 09-21-06, 02:17 PM	Your Eldritch Knight and Spellwarrior Prestige Classes are dazzling. They still retain that generic feel. Also, is there any in-game difference between the two? Do characters in the game world refer to them separately, or are they synonyms for the same occupation, just with different prerequisites?
Ramza0Tyr 09-21-06, 03:03 PM	Nicely presented. However, I think that some of the feats have been overpowered. For example, the generic class feats already have a familar feat, but you up the power in your version. In any event, I would recommend taking feats that improve by level and breaking them up into separate feats. (plain feat, improved feat, greater feat.) I would recommend using sneak attack in the generic feat list as an example. I would also be concerned about the way some class abilities have been combined. For example, your trap sense is trapfinding and trapsense. Trapfinding, all by itself, is quite valuable and worthy of a feat as it opens up an entirely new use for a skill for the character. (And a useful skill, indeed.) I would recommend trap finding be a feat on its own, and then break trap sense into multiple feats. (I do realize that the original generic trapsense feat is combined.) Also, why did you make animal companion as the ranger ability? You should run it as the Druid ability. (Which, ironically, powers it up. :)) Did you purposefully change the evasion feat from rogue to monk, or was that accidental? Not that it changes anything, but it is different from the SRD, so I thought I would ask. So, I hope this doesn't come across as negative. These are obviously just my impressions. I've been working on feats for generic classes more in the way I recommended in between tinkering with another system. My goal is to figure out which would work best for what I'm planning before developing the system in its entirety. It's taking me awhile... :D (mostly the fault of my tinkering with the other system to try and develop a way to compare the impact on the feel of character creation and the image I'm trying to establish.) Either way, keep having fun... Later. Ramza
FeceMan 09-21-06, 05:41 PM	Thank you. I hadn't really decided on the implications of their names in the game world. Truthfully, the characters will probably call themselves whatever they want--warlock, wizard, sorcerer, witch, arcanist, etc. However, the spellwarrior was specifically designed to allow for a character to have a "less caster, more warrior" feel, and so the characters taking that class would probably use titles that reflect this connotatively--paladin, blackguard, mageblade, etc. Nicely presented. However, I think that some of the feats have been overpowered. For example, the generic class feats already have a familar feat, but you up the power in your version. In any event, I would recommend taking feats that improve by level and breaking them up into separate feats. (plain feat, improved feat, greater feat.) I would recommend using sneak attack in the generic feat list as an example. I understand this, and I actually was talking it over with my friend. We decided that having to wait until seventh level (or later) to get a familiar was enough of a consequence of the feat. As far as the "improved familiar" feat goes--we decided that it didn't give enough of a bonus to warrant an entirely other feat. So, yes, that does significantly raise the strength of the familiar, but the wizard loses out on the alertness feat (big whoop, I know) and the bonuses. I have, however, been considering implementing something that would allow for a significantly more powerful familiar (an attempt at modeling the bonded summoner without requiring a new class). I would also be concerned about the way some class abilities have been combined. For example, your trap sense is trapfinding and trapsense. Trapfinding, all by itself, is quite valuable and worthy of a feat as it opens up an entirely new use for a skill for the character. (And a useful skill, indeed.) I would recommend trap finding be a feat on its own, and then break trap sense into multiple feats. (I do realize that the original generic trapsense feat is combined.) I realized this, too, and I considered splitting them into two different class features. But, I considered the rogue's abilities and the expert's ability to emulate them, and I figured that forcing it to cost two feats would decrease the power of the ability more than combining them increases the power. This is probably something I'd have to see in playtesting. Also, why did you make animal companion as the ranger ability? You should run it as the Druid ability. (Which, ironically, powers it up. :)) I decided to make it as the ranger ability because I'm extremely leery of the animal companion, probably because of the power level of druids in normal D&D. That's another one of the things I considered, and I'm still considering. Did you purposefully change the evasion feat from rogue to monk, or was that accidental? Not that it changes anything, but it is different from the SRD, so I thought I would ask. Yes, I did change it on purpose, as I prefer the rogue to monk. So, I hope this doesn't come across as negative. Not at all.
FeceMan 09-21-06, 09:31 PM	Oh, derp. I forgot two things: Poison Use: As the assassin ability. Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6. Death Attack (Ex): As the assassin ability. Save DC is 10 + 1/2 your HD + INT modifier. Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6, poison use. Also: considering basing the character's effective druid level as being HD -3 (and changing the text to read "as the druid ability"). Would this be more balancing, perhaps? EDIT: I'm also wondering if the spell specialization abilities give too much for too little sacrifice. I'd like to know everyone's opinion on whether or not I ought to tone down the additional spells known per spell level. Was thinking something like: Specialist gets +1 spell for spell levels 1-3. Second degree specialist gets +2 spells for spell levels 1-3, +1 spell for levels 4-6. Third degree specialist gets +3 spells for spell levels 1-3, +2 spells for levels 4-6, and +1 spells for levels 7-9.
FeceMan 09-23-06, 01:18 PM	Meh. I think I'll just make animal companion = wild cohort feat. Does that seem okay?
theotherdraxen 09-23-06, 05:24 PM	Not to rail road your thread or anything, but I have a suggestion: spell-like abilities. 1st level spell requires CL 4 2nd level spell requires CL 8 3rd level spell requires CL 12 4th level spell requires CL 16 5th level spell requires CL 20 Note: CL stands for character level, not caster level. You may use the spell once per day. You may select the same spell multiple times. This increases the number of times per day the spell can be cast by 1. The caster level = 1/2 character level.
FeceMan 09-23-06, 10:35 PM	I like the idea, but I was hoping for a simpler mechanic that would be more useful overall. I'm still looking for feedback on the death attack, poison use, and wild cohort feats, though.
theotherdraxen 09-23-06, 11:14 PM	IMO, poison use should only have 2d6 sneak attack as a prereq. In your system, it mainly serves as a prereq fro Death Attack (a reasonable notion IMO). Also consider Improved Poison Use. Wild Cohort is good with me.
FeceMan 09-23-06, 11:55 PM	What's improved poison use?
theotherdraxen 09-24-06, 11:39 AM	The Ninja from Complete Adventurer gets it at 9th level. It allows him to apply poison to a weapon as a move action. Without it, applying poison is a standard.
FeceMan 09-24-06, 01:25 PM	Okay. Posting from PSP, but will change ASAP.
Jodjod 09-25-06, 01:38 AM	Good start. You need a way of nerfing spellcasters. Maybe give them thematic spell lists to choose from. Giving them free reign over spell selection is a bit silly. Also, Prestige Classes: don't give them choices on saves, or skills. That's kinda the point of a PrC...it's powerful, but specialized. EDIT: Still, nice job. I've subscribed to the thread.
FeceMan 09-25-06, 02:40 PM	More updates in green. I'm thinking of adding "companion familiar" to the list just because I think that's a really cool class feature and, if a character wants to invest three feats for it, I think he should be able to have a very strong bodyguard. Looking at the addition to unarmed strike, I'm trying to decide whether or not it is too powerful. Granted, the amulet of mighty fists costs a ton more than what has been made possible from the changes. However, I'm not sure why it costs so much, though. Companion Familiar (Ex): A character's familiar gains all the benefits of being a familiar and the benefits of being an animal companion (or vice-versa), such as the bonus HD, natural armor bonus, intelligence, bonus tricks, etc. The benefits of being a familiar are still gained through spellcaster class levels alone. The companion familiar becomes a magical beast (if not one already) upon taking this class feature, but it can still be affected by spells that normally only can affect animals. Spells that normally only target familiars can also affect the companion familiar. [Superhyperultramegaton tentative there, depending on the amount of breakage that is possible.] If a spellcaster wishes, he may dismiss his familiar without risking loss of experience in order to acquire an animal companion that becomes his familiar companion. Special: The companion familiar's hitpoints are based solely on the companion familiar's HD; unlike a familiar, the master's hitpoints do not determine the companion familiar's unless the companion familiar has a total HP of less than one-half the master's hitpoints. [How does that sound? It's basically the arcane hierophant's ability, only one is not required to have Races of the Wild.]
FeceMan 09-27-06, 01:50 PM	Oh no you di'int let this get to the bottom of the page.
Red12 09-27-06, 02:01 PM	Hey, I really like what you've done with this. I did the same thing, only I went with a few more mechanics. I included a medium save. (you can trade a good save down to two medium onoes. Capping at +9) I added the idea of "Core Feats" essentially, feats that were more powerful then the run-of-the-mill feats, and could only be taken by advancing in HD, not bonus feats. I think you need to spread out more of the abilities into feat chains. Like DR. Id save give a base 2 and increase by 2 every time you buy the feat. Animal companion: I based mine off of ranks in Knowledge(Nature): You're effective druid level for your animal companion was your ranks in KN - 3. And dont forget my alltime favorite class ability, Mettle!!!
FeceMan 09-27-06, 04:01 PM	And dont forget my alltime favorite class ability, Mettle!!! Ah, yes, I forgot about mettle. That's a decent variant for the animal companion; I like it. However, I'm trying to keep the animal companion from being too powerful [blasted druids], so I'm going to talk it over with a friend of mine.
FeceMan 09-28-06, 11:33 PM	Updates in purple.
FeceMan 09-30-06, 11:48 AM	Needs more PEACH.
FeceMan 09-30-06, 04:47 PM	Removed improved precise strike (no real need for it) and tweaked animal companion rules.
FeceMan 10-02-06, 01:35 PM	Added another PrC (for the skillmonkey mages out there) and tweaked classes a bit more. (Changes for those are in red. I don't like purple.)
FeceMan 10-04-06, 01:21 PM	What am I, chopped liver? I demand attention! Pretend I'm a cutter on LiveJournal.
Caelestion 10-04-06, 06:26 PM	The fast movement abilities should all be enhancement bonuses to base movement. IMO, required fighter levels should be directly mapped to required warrior levels. I'd suggest renaming "unarmed strike" to "Improved Unarmed Strike" and "Improved Unarmed Strike" to "Superior Unarmed Strike".
FeceMan 10-04-06, 06:43 PM	The fast movement abilities should all be enhancement bonuses to base movement. IMO, required fighter levels should be directly mapped to required warrior levels. I'd suggest renaming "unarmed strike" to "Improved Unarmed Strike" and "Improved Unarmed Strike" to "Superior Unarmed Strike". The fast movement abilities are ehancement bonuses. They work like a monk's. For the fighter bonus feats: I honestly don't think that's necessary. Fighters still aren't that good, and if a character wants to spend all his bonus feats on mediocre abilities, he can be my guest. Also, the generic character classes are generally weaker than their PHB counterparts, so, again, not too worried about it.
Caelestion 10-04-06, 07:38 PM	Well, you did note "base speed" and since it's base speed that is multipled, augmented etc., I thought it was worth noting.
FeceMan 10-06-06, 12:30 PM	Well, you did note "base speed" and since it's base speed that is multipled, augmented etc., I thought it was worth noting. Ah, I see. Thanks for the concern, but the monk's bonus to speed is enhancement, so no troubles there.
GEEKAZOID 10-08-06, 10:19 PM	Hey there, I'm liking what I see! Have you used this in game yet? An idea... Next to each class feature list the original name of the feature/class it came from when not obvious. This helps geeks like me who don't have them all memorized. What are your sources for class features outside of the PHB?
FeceMan 10-09-06, 12:07 AM	Hey there, I'm liking what I see! Have you used this in game yet? An idea... Next to each class feature list the original name of the feature/class it came from when not obvious. This helps geeks like me who don't have them all memorized. What are your sources for class features outside of the PHB? Complete Warrior (mettle), Races of the Wild (companion familiar), turn/rebuke outsider was made up, and some of the other ones were just class features from the PHB/DMG that were split up into various things. I have not used it in a game yet, but I hope to.
theotherdraxen 10-09-06, 06:44 PM	Have you considered the Monk's Diamond Soul ability? I'm not sure what the prereqs would be.
Braids 10-11-06, 02:24 PM	Nevermind.
sigma999 10-14-06, 06:37 PM	I don't like what you did with improving monk unarmed damage... all that should be left to player's option, such as taking an altered (remove the prereq: base Attack +3) Supreme Unarmed Strike (from Tome of Battle) at level 1 if they want to. Your limit on Canny Reflexes I would like to apply to Divine Grace as well, though! There should be restricitons on the power of adding X stat to Y bonus, which is always exponentially powerful.
FeceMan 10-14-06, 09:56 PM	I don't like what you did with improving monk unarmed damage... all that should be left to player's option, such as taking an altered (remove the prereq: base Attack +3) Supreme Unarmed Strike (from Tome of Battle) at level 1 if they want to. Your limit on Canny Reflexes I would like to apply to Divine Grace as well, though! There should be restricitons on the power of adding X stat to Y bonus, which is always exponentially powerful. Divine grace doesn't exist :).
theotherdraxen 10-15-06, 08:01 PM	Divine grace doesn't exist :). :weep:
FeceMan 10-16-06, 02:19 PM	:weep: Yeah, I know. I considered it, but I figured that it really wasn't needed.
HarlequinHelsing 10-16-06, 06:17 PM	This is awesome. Finally, someone else did something I was always too lazy to do!:D There is one thing I request: Every base class has the Expert's ability (I think it would be called an ability) to choose class skills. Good especially for fighters and such who want the benefits of heavy armor but still want to be good at seeing and hearing, or life. On the same subject, every class shoud have Listen and Spot as a class skill.
theotherdraxen 10-16-06, 07:55 PM	Yeah, I know. I considered it, but I figured that it really wasn't needed. It would be a little too easy to exploit (and how long before non-charisma variants started popping up:eek:)...good call, Feceman. Good especially for fighters and such who want the benefits of heavy armor but still want to be good at seeing and hearing, or life. :rofl:
FeceMan 10-16-06, 11:45 PM	This is awesome. Finally, someone else did something I was always too lazy to do!:D There is one thing I request: Every base class has the Expert's ability (I think it would be called an ability) to choose class skills. Good especially for fighters and such who want the benefits of heavy armor but still want to be good at seeing and hearing, or life. On the same subject, every class shoud have Listen and Spot as a class skill. Every class does have the ability to choose class skills? The thing with listen and spot not being automatic class skills is that they represent special training to spot those trying to hide/sneak about and identify them, which a normal person will not have.
sigma999 10-17-06, 07:47 PM	Yeah, I know. I considered it, but I figured that it really wasn't needed. Ditto. In Tome of Battle there is a Crusader ability named Indomitable Will which adds CHA to Will saves and even this I found too much. I used Weapon Finesse as a start, which replaces rather than adds another stat. Then split Divine Grace into 3 parts, 1 for each save. Player picks which one to gain as a bonus feat. I'm considering allowing anyone to replace any bonus with another stat with a single feat. Add STR to AC instead of DEX, add WIS to melee damage instead of STR, etc. Or, if I can balance that stacking effect of adding more stats to bonuses it will have to be limited like +1 for every 2 character levels at most so that a level 1 character doesn't have 3-4 stat bonuses on to one roll for a total of +20 or some junk... What did everyone else do?
FeceMan 10-18-06, 01:07 PM	Ditto. In Tome of Battle there is a Crusader ability named Indomitable Will which adds CHA to Will saves and even this I found too much. I used Weapon Finesse as a start, which replaces rather than adds another stat. Then split Divine Grace into 3 parts, 1 for each save. Player picks which one to gain as a bonus feat. I'm considering allowing anyone to replace any bonus with another stat with a single feat. Add STR to AC instead of DEX, add WIS to melee damage instead of STR, etc. Or, if I can balance that stacking effect of adding more stats to bonuses it will have to be limited like +1 for every 2 character levels at most so that a level 1 character doesn't have 3-4 stat bonuses on to one roll for a total of +20 or some junk... What did everyone else do? For starters, I'd give the paladin all good saves to begin with (or, at the very least, good Fort/Will). After that, I'd tell any character who had bad saves to either pump DEX, WIS, or CON to make it better. :D
HarlequinHelsing 10-18-06, 06:03 PM	I don't think I was as clear as I could have been on my last post. What I meant by "choosing class skills" was not being able to choose what skills are class skills for you. Like the expert, but maybe less so, like able to choose a number of additional class skills equal to your INT modifier or something. FeceMan, I understand your point about Listen and Spot, but I'm still not fully convinced. Maybe I'm just bitter from my dwarf fighter getting sneak attacked to death.:(
FeceMan 10-18-06, 10:25 PM	I don't think I was as clear as I could have been on my last post. What I meant by "choosing class skills" was not being able to choose what skills are class skills for you. Like the expert, but maybe less so, like able to choose a number of additional class skills equal to your INT modifier or something. FeceMan, I understand your point about Listen and Spot, but I'm still not fully convinced. Maybe I'm just bitter from my dwarf fighter getting sneak attacked to death.:( Lol. I was considering allowing a character's INT modifier to allow extra class skills, though I've already ****ed around with the base classes too much, methinks. Unfortunately, listen and spot aren't going to help you if you're flanked, lol.
sigma999 10-26-06, 04:18 AM	For starters, I'd give the paladin all good saves to begin with (or, at the very least, good Fort/Will). I was thinking same. Or at least giving them (and Monks) an ability similar to the CAdv Ninja that adds 2 to Will as long as they have at least 1 "Ki" point stored. IMO classes shouldn't have all 3 good saves, unless you start taking away some other aspects... Fort = tank warriors Ref = skill users, rogues, fast warriors Will = casters Monk is a either a 50% tank warrior / 50% caster or a 50% fast warrior / 50% caster, and Paladin is usually a 75% tank warrior / 25% caster. So base saves could reflect this focus, maybe even tie feat chains to appropriate "base save" values like what Monte Cook suggested for prestige class requirements!
kadeity 10-27-06, 08:36 PM	will you be adding any class abilities from other books? like skirmish? and wildshape is dead for good isnt it :( you could make the shapechanger variant from phb2 into a class feature tree... i consider it to be universally better than wild shape. OH and any chance for some psionics support here ? the class abilites of soulknife are fair game :) i was so very hoping for a hybrid caster generic so that you can actually get something that casts similar to the way a bard does. i always thought the archetypes should have been more like FF1 and less like 1st edition dnd. Fighter=Fighter Theif=Theif Black mage=wizard White mage=priest Red mage= multiclassed character :(
theotherdraxen 10-28-06, 08:57 PM	Personally, I thought that the Expert was weak enough to warrant the Bards progression of spells, and the Warrior the Pallys. That way, everyone gets spells the same way everyone gets a BAB.
TwoSix26 11-07-06, 02:04 PM	Personally, I thought that the Expert was weak enough to warrant the Bards progression of spells, and the Warrior the Pallys. That way, everyone gets spells the same way everyone gets a BAB. That's actually a really cool idea. Warriors could have access to the spells from the Paladin/Ranger/Hexblade lists, and Experts could have access to Assassin/Bard lists. Add in some class features that let them use spell slots for pseudo-physical abilities (Tome of Battle Manuevers, maybe), and this could be gold.
kadeity 11-08-06, 03:26 AM	ive always wished that DND never moved away from the 4 classes. the core roles are really what i wish we still had... but to be more specific, what i mean is... I wish dnd was more like... WARRIOR,EXPERT,DIV.CASTER, ARC.CASTER and that you used feat selection to get your class abilities. i would love to see a project where whenever a new class came out, we just made a feat tree for one of the classes to take that could make it whatever the class was. If the new class would be a multiclassed version of these basic classes, then you just require more prerequisites out of the feat selection. if you wanted to be extreme, you could even make the caster take a feat every 2 levels to get his next level of spells.. thus reflecting partial spell progression. Id like something like that anyway.