Exploding Criticals - "Avalanching Criticals" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Exploding Criticals - "Avalanching Criticals" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
10-17-05, 04:18 PM A DM friend of mine has long wished to impliment some sort of reward for rolling a 20 when making a critical threat check, and I've long advised him to stay with the RAW because instant death on a second 20 roll hurts the players a lot.

Recently, I began playing L5R, which uses only d10s. Any roll of a d10 provokes a second roll, adding the new roll to the initial 10; if you keep rolling 10s, you keep re-rolling. I decided to do the math, and I determined that the average value of a d10 roll in that game was about 6, a little higher than the normal average of 5.5.

That got me interested in looking at the d20. The normal average for a d20 roll is 10.5, but in standard D&D a 1 is a miss, and a 20 is possible double damage. If a 20 was always a critical hit, dealing double damage, and 1s deal 0 damage, then 2 through 19 deal normal damage. If you average (1x0)+(18x1)+(1x2), you get 1, meaning the zero damage cancles out the double damage. Problem is that a roll of 1 on a critical threat check means the attack was a normal hit, slightly reducing the average damage.

But if a second roll of 20 meant another check, and a successful hit meant the multiplier would be doubled (doubling a double means tripple in D&D math), then it would all balance out in the end. To illustrate my point, here are some quick charts using damage multipliers instead of actual damage, since the multiplier is really the only part that matters.

AC 0 with 20/x2 weapon
1 x0
2 x1
3 x1
4 x1
5 x1
6 x1
7 x1
8 x1
9 x1
10 x1
11 x1
12 x1
13 x1
14 x1
15 x1
16 x1
17 x1
18 x1
19 x1
20 1 x1
2 x2
3 x2
4 x2
5 x2
6 x2
7 x2
8 x2
9 x2
10 x2
11 x2
12 x2
13 x2
14 x2
15 x2
16 x2
17 x2
18 x2
19 x2
20 1 x2
2 x3
3 x3
4 x3
5 x3
6 x3
7 x3
8 x3
9 x3
10 x3
11 x3
12 x3
13 x3
14 x3
15 x3
16 x3
17 x3
18 x3
19 x3
20 x4

If you average out these numbers, you get 1 (note, the final x4 multiplier on the last roll of 20 is an estimation; this chart would go on forever if I didn't cut it off somewhere; I'm sure someone could do a computer generated version, but it would probably come out to the same result as I did).

So, the rule I propose is this: Upon scoring a critical threat, roll again. If your second roll hits, you deal critical damage (normally x2), but if your second roll threats again, make another attack roll. If the third attack hits, you deal double critical damage (normally x3). If you continue to roll threats, you continue to reroll, each time adding to the critical multiplier.

I do need to test this for other ACs and other critical styles (19-20/x2, 18-20/x2, 20/x3, and 20/x4 mainly) to make sure that it isn't favoring one over the other, but I think it could add some spice to the game.

What do you think?
RaspK FOG
10-17-05, 06:22 PM Using the standard rules for multipliers, you could go with increasing or decreasing the multiplier by 1 when appropriate...
FlameLover
10-17-05, 06:56 PM I would just make rolling a 20 on a critical check up the multiplier by 1. And i don't mean if you roll in your threat again: i mean 20. The problem is that you can get a 12-20 threat i think with weapons like the Kukri and about 40% of criticals would be doubles under your system! But i do like that you did the math but i think you'll find when you add feats and PrC abilities, etc. that this could be very abused unless it was just an extra x1 and you'd have to roll a natural 20 to get it.
Bob Loblaw
10-17-05, 09:55 PM Using the standard rules for multipliers, you could go with increasing or decreasing the multiplier by 1 when appropriate...

We've been doing this for about a year now and have had only 2 or 3 times when the critical multiplier was increased. One time, someone got their greataxe to x5 damage. That was really a cool hit.
Aurotuli
10-17-05, 10:53 PM Rolling a second nat 20 when rolling to confirm a critical that was also made with a nat 20 is automatic max damage (ie: don't need to roll the damage dice). This started after the first time two twenties in a row in our group was followed by rolling maximum damage. Granted, it was a first level adventure, and their was only a single die rolled (1d8, for the longbow), but its been a tradition since then. Of course, rolling two nat 20s in a row when making an attack roll happens so rarely that its hardly an issue, really.
Xeviat-DM
10-18-05, 06:42 AM I would just make rolling a 20 on a critical check up the multiplier by 1. And i don't mean if you roll in your threat again: i mean 20. The problem is that you can get a 12-20 threat i think with weapons like the Kukri and about 40% of criticals would be doubles under your system! But i do like that you did the math but i think you'll find when you add feats and PrC abilities, etc. that this could be very abused unless it was just an extra x1 and you'd have to roll a natural 20 to get it.

You can't get a 12-20 anymore; that only happened when keen and improved critical could stack.

Right now I'm working on testing what changing both keen and improved critical to +1 to range would do to the high end weapons. Remember, the scimitar is the longsword with 1 less average damage for 1 more critical chance.
Thelon Fairblade
10-18-05, 10:05 AM I did the "exploding threat, increasing multiplier" rule in my last campaign. At 9th level, a stone golem hit the party rogue for 56 damage on a x4 crit, killing him twice (raw damage, *and* failed Fort save on massive damage, just for extra pain).

In the current campaign, the 4'th level raging barbarian was slain instantly by a goblin on a worg, charging with a lance. crit, exploding crit, confirmed. x2 for xharge, x3 for crit, x4 for exploding crit, x5 for confirmation.

The players have not yet confirmed an exploding crit.

Plus, you have the small mechanics issue that "+1 multplier" is a big deal for a x2 weapon, not as big a deal for a x3 weapon, and nothing interesting for a x4 weapon.

So, all things being equal, I would suggest either go with
a) a nat 20 on a confirmation is "max damage" on that crit; or
b) a nat 20 on a confirmation is "+1 crit multiplier", period, and leave it at that.
Millennium
10-18-05, 10:40 AM My first DM went by increasing the multiplier by one for every natural 20 rolled. Then again, he also had all weapons doing x2 by default. Thus, rolling two 20s (a "tri-crit") did triple damage, rolling three 20s did quadruple, and so on.

We actually got a fair number of tri-crits, but I only ever got a quad-crit once.
allenthailand
10-18-05, 05:47 PM I used a similar rule in my campaign, and I once saw a dwarf fighter do 224 points of damage against a doppleganger of the party wizard. It was amazing....

The way I did it, it was like your system, but when x3 weapons were confirmed as a crit, they became x5, then x7, and so on. x4 became x7, x10, and so on.

I also let improved crit and keen stack. Still, the campaign became the Wizard and his amazing friends after about 10th level.
Xeviat-DM
10-20-05, 12:04 PM The way I did it, it was like your system, but when x3 weapons were confirmed as a crit, they became x5, then x7, and so on. x4 became x7, x10, and so on.

That's what I intended; for simplicity I've rewritten the critical multiplier to be x1, x2, and x3. That's how much extra damage you deal on a critical; every time you confirm a threat on a threat, you add that multiplier again.

I also let improved crit and keen stack. Still, the campaign became the Wizard and his amazing friends after about 10th level.

I'm working on testing what would happen really if I changed improved crit and keen to only be +1 range. Also, because I use a varient proficiency system based on the UA weapon group idea, I'm tweeking improved crit to either increase the range or the mulitplier, depending on what kind of weapon you use. This helps me to not have to deal with what happens when a 20/x4 weapon (possessing a critical strength of 3) becomes a 19-20/x4 weapon (now possessing a critical strength of 6).
FlameLover
10-20-05, 08:21 PM Good point Xeviat. I'd change Improved Critical so that it increased range by one if range is more than 20 and increase multiplier if that's more than x2. If a weapon has 20/x2 it just increases threat range. It's a little cumbersome cure but it keeps things even that way (havn't done the math though - just assuming it does).
Jens
10-21-05, 01:37 PM FlameLover: Yes, that will keep it even. The importance (frequency*effect) of crits will be reduced a bit, but that may be ok.

Here's a general rule: A crit type of 20/x2 adds 5% to expected damage, 20/x3 and 19-20/x2 both add 10% (assuming 19 is a hit), etc.

So a 20/x4 benefits most from increasing range by +1 while 18-20/x2 benefits most from increasing multiplier by +1. In both cases, the expected damage from crits increase by the same amount, from +15% to +30%.

So, except for weapons with both ranges greater than 20 and multipliers gresater than x2, only increasing the 'good' part of the crit is balanced for different weapons as it increases expected damage from crits by +5%.
Xeviat-DM
10-24-05, 06:11 PM Good point Xeviat. I'd change Improved Critical so that it increased range by one if range is more than 20 and increase multiplier if that's more than x2. If a weapon has 20/x2 it just increases threat range. It's a little cumbersome cure but it keeps things even that way (havn't done the math though - just assuming it does).

I already started doing this. Since I use weapon proficiency groups, and since Improved Critical is Weapon Mastery (fighter 8th) in my games, I just determined which is altered by the weapon group the weapon belongs to. It looks good.

Keen does the same thing, which stacks with Weapon Mastery since only the fighter gets Mastery.
Jerks
10-25-05, 08:28 AM We've had a similar houserule for years now. Except that the crit can only explode on a d20 (as a number of you have said already). It works fine, and has the plus side of "not wasting" a natty 20. This is just a bit of gamer superstition, but we all know that we are only blessed with a certain number of natty 20 on any given night (Before any starts, I know how probabilities work, I have a 5% chance on any roll...yada...yada..yada). As a gamer I hate rolling a 20 when I don't need it. Initiative, DC 10 skill checks...hell any skill check really, cause if I need a 20 to succeed, I'm probably out of my league anyway, etc. I hate burning nattys!

Once I actually rolled three natty 20's in a row, followed by a 19, on a bow shot. x6 multiplier on the damage!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 10-17-05, 04:18 PM	A DM friend of mine has long wished to impliment some sort of reward for rolling a 20 when making a critical threat check, and I've long advised him to stay with the RAW because instant death on a second 20 roll hurts the players a lot. Recently, I began playing L5R, which uses only d10s. Any roll of a d10 provokes a second roll, adding the new roll to the initial 10; if you keep rolling 10s, you keep re-rolling. I decided to do the math, and I determined that the average value of a d10 roll in that game was about 6, a little higher than the normal average of 5.5. That got me interested in looking at the d20. The normal average for a d20 roll is 10.5, but in standard D&D a 1 is a miss, and a 20 is possible double damage. If a 20 was always a critical hit, dealing double damage, and 1s deal 0 damage, then 2 through 19 deal normal damage. If you average (1x0)+(18x1)+(1x2), you get 1, meaning the zero damage cancles out the double damage. Problem is that a roll of 1 on a critical threat check means the attack was a normal hit, slightly reducing the average damage. But if a second roll of 20 meant another check, and a successful hit meant the multiplier would be doubled (doubling a double means tripple in D&D math), then it would all balance out in the end. To illustrate my point, here are some quick charts using damage multipliers instead of actual damage, since the multiplier is really the only part that matters. AC 0 with 20/x2 weapon 1 x0 2 x1 3 x1 4 x1 5 x1 6 x1 7 x1 8 x1 9 x1 10 x1 11 x1 12 x1 13 x1 14 x1 15 x1 16 x1 17 x1 18 x1 19 x1 20 1 x1 2 x2 3 x2 4 x2 5 x2 6 x2 7 x2 8 x2 9 x2 10 x2 11 x2 12 x2 13 x2 14 x2 15 x2 16 x2 17 x2 18 x2 19 x2 20 1 x2 2 x3 3 x3 4 x3 5 x3 6 x3 7 x3 8 x3 9 x3 10 x3 11 x3 12 x3 13 x3 14 x3 15 x3 16 x3 17 x3 18 x3 19 x3 20 x4 If you average out these numbers, you get 1 (note, the final x4 multiplier on the last roll of 20 is an estimation; this chart would go on forever if I didn't cut it off somewhere; I'm sure someone could do a computer generated version, but it would probably come out to the same result as I did). So, the rule I propose is this: Upon scoring a critical threat, roll again. If your second roll hits, you deal critical damage (normally x2), but if your second roll threats again, make another attack roll. If the third attack hits, you deal double critical damage (normally x3). If you continue to roll threats, you continue to reroll, each time adding to the critical multiplier. I do need to test this for other ACs and other critical styles (19-20/x2, 18-20/x2, 20/x3, and 20/x4 mainly) to make sure that it isn't favoring one over the other, but I think it could add some spice to the game. What do you think?
RaspK FOG 10-17-05, 06:22 PM	Using the standard rules for multipliers, you could go with increasing or decreasing the multiplier by 1 when appropriate...
FlameLover 10-17-05, 06:56 PM	I would just make rolling a 20 on a critical check up the multiplier by 1. And i don't mean if you roll in your threat again: i mean 20. The problem is that you can get a 12-20 threat i think with weapons like the Kukri and about 40% of criticals would be doubles under your system! But i do like that you did the math but i think you'll find when you add feats and PrC abilities, etc. that this could be very abused unless it was just an extra x1 and you'd have to roll a natural 20 to get it.
Bob Loblaw 10-17-05, 09:55 PM	Using the standard rules for multipliers, you could go with increasing or decreasing the multiplier by 1 when appropriate... We've been doing this for about a year now and have had only 2 or 3 times when the critical multiplier was increased. One time, someone got their greataxe to x5 damage. That was really a cool hit.
Aurotuli 10-17-05, 10:53 PM	Rolling a second nat 20 when rolling to confirm a critical that was also made with a nat 20 is automatic max damage (ie: don't need to roll the damage dice). This started after the first time two twenties in a row in our group was followed by rolling maximum damage. Granted, it was a first level adventure, and their was only a single die rolled (1d8, for the longbow), but its been a tradition since then. Of course, rolling two nat 20s in a row when making an attack roll happens so rarely that its hardly an issue, really.
Xeviat-DM 10-18-05, 06:42 AM	I would just make rolling a 20 on a critical check up the multiplier by 1. And i don't mean if you roll in your threat again: i mean 20. The problem is that you can get a 12-20 threat i think with weapons like the Kukri and about 40% of criticals would be doubles under your system! But i do like that you did the math but i think you'll find when you add feats and PrC abilities, etc. that this could be very abused unless it was just an extra x1 and you'd have to roll a natural 20 to get it. You can't get a 12-20 anymore; that only happened when keen and improved critical could stack. Right now I'm working on testing what changing both keen and improved critical to +1 to range would do to the high end weapons. Remember, the scimitar is the longsword with 1 less average damage for 1 more critical chance.
Thelon Fairblade 10-18-05, 10:05 AM	I did the "exploding threat, increasing multiplier" rule in my last campaign. At 9th level, a stone golem hit the party rogue for 56 damage on a x4 crit, killing him twice (raw damage, and failed Fort save on massive damage, just for extra pain). In the current campaign, the 4'th level raging barbarian was slain instantly by a goblin on a worg, charging with a lance. crit, exploding crit, confirmed. x2 for xharge, x3 for crit, x4 for exploding crit, x5 for confirmation. The players have not yet confirmed an exploding crit. Plus, you have the small mechanics issue that "+1 multplier" is a big deal for a x2 weapon, not as big a deal for a x3 weapon, and nothing interesting for a x4 weapon. So, all things being equal, I would suggest either go with a) a nat 20 on a confirmation is "max damage" on that crit; or b) a nat 20 on a confirmation is "+1 crit multiplier", period, and leave it at that.
Millennium 10-18-05, 10:40 AM	My first DM went by increasing the multiplier by one for every natural 20 rolled. Then again, he also had all weapons doing x2 by default. Thus, rolling two 20s (a "tri-crit") did triple damage, rolling three 20s did quadruple, and so on. We actually got a fair number of tri-crits, but I only ever got a quad-crit once.
allenthailand 10-18-05, 05:47 PM	I used a similar rule in my campaign, and I once saw a dwarf fighter do 224 points of damage against a doppleganger of the party wizard. It was amazing.... The way I did it, it was like your system, but when x3 weapons were confirmed as a crit, they became x5, then x7, and so on. x4 became x7, x10, and so on. I also let improved crit and keen stack. Still, the campaign became the Wizard and his amazing friends after about 10th level.
Xeviat-DM 10-20-05, 12:04 PM	The way I did it, it was like your system, but when x3 weapons were confirmed as a crit, they became x5, then x7, and so on. x4 became x7, x10, and so on. That's what I intended; for simplicity I've rewritten the critical multiplier to be x1, x2, and x3. That's how much extra damage you deal on a critical; every time you confirm a threat on a threat, you add that multiplier again. I also let improved crit and keen stack. Still, the campaign became the Wizard and his amazing friends after about 10th level. I'm working on testing what would happen really if I changed improved crit and keen to only be +1 range. Also, because I use a varient proficiency system based on the UA weapon group idea, I'm tweeking improved crit to either increase the range or the mulitplier, depending on what kind of weapon you use. This helps me to not have to deal with what happens when a 20/x4 weapon (possessing a critical strength of 3) becomes a 19-20/x4 weapon (now possessing a critical strength of 6).
FlameLover 10-20-05, 08:21 PM	Good point Xeviat. I'd change Improved Critical so that it increased range by one if range is more than 20 and increase multiplier if that's more than x2. If a weapon has 20/x2 it just increases threat range. It's a little cumbersome cure but it keeps things even that way (havn't done the math though - just assuming it does).
Jens 10-21-05, 01:37 PM	FlameLover: Yes, that will keep it even. The importance (frequency*effect) of crits will be reduced a bit, but that may be ok. Here's a general rule: A crit type of 20/x2 adds 5% to expected damage, 20/x3 and 19-20/x2 both add 10% (assuming 19 is a hit), etc. So a 20/x4 benefits most from increasing range by +1 while 18-20/x2 benefits most from increasing multiplier by +1. In both cases, the expected damage from crits increase by the same amount, from +15% to +30%. So, except for weapons with both ranges greater than 20 and multipliers gresater than x2, only increasing the 'good' part of the crit is balanced for different weapons as it increases expected damage from crits by +5%.
Xeviat-DM 10-24-05, 06:11 PM	Good point Xeviat. I'd change Improved Critical so that it increased range by one if range is more than 20 and increase multiplier if that's more than x2. If a weapon has 20/x2 it just increases threat range. It's a little cumbersome cure but it keeps things even that way (havn't done the math though - just assuming it does). I already started doing this. Since I use weapon proficiency groups, and since Improved Critical is Weapon Mastery (fighter 8th) in my games, I just determined which is altered by the weapon group the weapon belongs to. It looks good. Keen does the same thing, which stacks with Weapon Mastery since only the fighter gets Mastery.
Jerks 10-25-05, 08:28 AM	We've had a similar houserule for years now. Except that the crit can only explode on a d20 (as a number of you have said already). It works fine, and has the plus side of "not wasting" a natty 20. This is just a bit of gamer superstition, but we all know that we are only blessed with a certain number of natty 20 on any given night (Before any starts, I know how probabilities work, I have a 5% chance on any roll...yada...yada..yada). As a gamer I hate rolling a 20 when I don't need it. Initiative, DC 10 skill checks...hell any skill check really, cause if I need a 20 to succeed, I'm probably out of my league anyway, etc. I hate burning nattys! Once I actually rolled three natty 20's in a row, followed by a 19, on a bow shot. x6 multiplier on the damage!